The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: Acts 2:20

[JD731]

This verse is a direct quote from the prophet Joel 2;31. This is in the first sermon preached in the New Testament age after Jesus Christ had been crucified and had risen from the dead and showed himself alive to certain chosen disciples for 40 days before his ascension to heaven where he is presently.

This was the festival of Pentecost, the Feast of Weeks.
The order of events in Acts 2, 10 days later after Jesus ascended, began with the pouring out of the Holy Ghost on the 120 in the room who had previously received the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20. There is no evidence in the scriptures that this man Peter, who preached this first sermon to Israel,( nor any other of the 120 who were in the upper room that day), concluded it with the command for them to repent, be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and they will receive the Holy Ghost, was ever baptized in water himself.

This sermon was preached to a specific group of people and it had instructions that could apply to this specific people only. It was a very narrow command to these people. It was a kingdom sermon. The key phase in the command of Peter when he was asked by his audience what they must do at the end of his sermon was "every one of you." Remember that Jesus had told these men that they would minister in his very power and what Peter said to this nation was as if Jesus himself was speaking.

I do want to quote the passages that tell us who Peter and the others were addressing because it matters to Bible believers.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

They were not just men from every nation under heaven, but Jews from every nation under heaven, devout Jews.
They could not all speak Hebrew! Here is what is said about them.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Now, that is what he said to those people. Afterwards he shifts gears and speaks and addresses the nation. The Jews who dwell in Jerusalem and Judaea.
Watch it!

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
These others were obviously not devout men

He speaks directly to them through v21 and then this:

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

There were not only miracles and signs but the sun refused to shine and though we are not told directly, the moon was turned to blood just like Acts 2:20 says. Jesus had performed many miracles in the previous 3 years and it is actually true that this prophecy of Joel was actually and literally fulfilled in the person and works of Jesus Christ and his death on the cross. Now he has risen from the dead and his complete nation, all the tribes were gathered together by him to assure them that all his promises to them would be fulfilled but Israel is a collective and must be saved as a collective to receive their national promises. God gave them 7 years and at the end of that 7 years you can read their answer in in the last few verses of Acts 7.

There was a transition there at that time but had they repented history would have been written much differently because all the promises of God, to whomever he makes them, are yea and Amen, and they cannot fail.

Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off (in the nations), even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This might be one of the greatest sermons ever preached. It shows us the gracious and merciful character of our God and the prideful and arrogant and rebellious nature of man

How would your religious group handle these verses in Acts 2?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am not involved with a "religious group," only with a church, so I can't help you.

 

[JD731]

I am not involved with a "religious group," only with a church, so I can't help you.

Noted, Thanks.

 

[37818]

The eleven references:

Isaiah 13:10.
Isaiah 24:23.
Ezekiel 32:7.
Joel 2:10.
Joel 2:31.
Joel 3:15.
Matthew 24:29.
Mark 13:24.
Luke 21:25.
Acts 2:20.
Revelation 6:12.

Of the one event.

 

[JD731]

Jesus in the gospel record of his first coming as a man, one of us, to accomplish redemption for us had in fact fulfilled the prophecy of darkening the sun and turning the moon into blood when he hung on the cross. The 6 hours that Friday was in two parts. One, he was nailed there at 9:00 o'clock in the morning but, two, at noon the world went dark and there was an earthquake. Jesus cried to the Father and the Spirit, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus suffered there as a man in hell will suffer. Death is first spiritual separation from God. Define death some other way and you will not get the impact of what Jesus did for you and me. He as a man was separated from God. But his soul was not separated from his body so he was not physically dead. He gave up the ghost, another way of saying his soul and body were separated and he was dead physically. If it was finished then we can expect he would have no more suffering and his soul went to paradise on Friday before 6: o'clock where OT saints went until they were washed in the blood and his body went lifeless to the tomb where it suffered no corruption. He remained dead through Saturday, the Sabbath, the completion of the week, which ended at 6 PM and very early in the morning on day 8, Sunday, the first day of a new week, he rose from the dead and was glorified and became the only man who ever was resurrected from the dead never to die again. The Bible tells us he rose from the dead on the first day of the Week, very early in the morning.

Mt 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

The gospel is simple for us today. it is in it's simplest form the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the purpose of taking our sins on himself and satisfying the justice of God for anyone and everyone who will believe what he did actually was the plan of God as the only means possible for him remaining a perfectly just God while at the same time justifying any and all sinners who will believe on him and imputing the perfect righteousness of Christ to him.

While the gospel is simple enough for a child to understand it and be saved there remains some things that must be acknowledged and believed by the one who hears about this salvation of God from our sins. That is why a preacher of the gospel is much more important in evangelism than a written copy of the scriptures. Those things that are non-negotiable from God must be received by the hearer and the preacher can and will explain them to him. God sends a preacher to a sinner as his first response to him before he sends a Bible. The gospel is in no way a magical formula but a message and invitation from God that must be heard and embraced by faith of each individual sinner. Personally, I have heard it and have believed it and received God's eternal salvation from my sins. Praise God for that.

What does this have to do with my title of the OP? I posted this because there are many interpretations of how a man is saved and who is a candidate for salvation. Some of these interpretations are represented here. It is my belief that the preachers on forums like this one are here because of what they have been told by their preachers. They are not what God says. Their preachers have not believed the words God has said and they have written books attempting to explain them away and in their place insert their own interpretations and applications.

It is the dispensationalists who believe the words of God as written and attempt to know who is being addressed and accepts the fact that God has a plan to renew the earth and sinners to their pristine forms by finally taking sin away completely and establishing his perfect kingdom and rule over heaven and earth. It is an unfolding drama of redemption and I am convinced that those who adopt systematic studies of the scriptures that rejects God's assurance that his words mean what they say are opposed to his redemptive purposes. They do not and cannot follow his logic and reasoning. They do not know his ways.

Dispensationalists are not saved because they are dispensationalists but , generally speaking, saved people are dispensationalists because their tendency is to believe the words of God. The evidence that religious men are either not saved or greatly deceived is that they do not believe the words.

 

[Ascetic X]

While the gospel is simple enough for a child to understand it and be saved there remains some things that must be acknowledged and believed by the one who hears about this salvation of God from our sins.

That is why a preacher of the gospel is much more important in evangelism than a written copy of the scriptures.

Those things that are non-negotiable from God must be received by the hearer and the preacher can and will explain them to him. God sends a preacher to a sinner as his first response to him before he sends a Bible.

The gospel is in no way a magical formula but a message and invitation from God that must be heard and embraced by faith of each individual sinner. Personally, I have heard it and have believed it and received God's eternal salvation from my sins. Praise God for that.

I disagree. I would not exalt any fallible man above the written Word of God.

The gospel is not magical, but it is a supernatural formula for salvation.

The Holy Spirit can guide a person and help them understand as they read the Bible.

But a preacher can lead the person to an understanding of salvation … or to an acceptance of error, depending on the preacher.

There are many testimonies of how God sent to someone a Bible (like Gideon’s in a hotel room) before God sent them a preacher.

 

[JD731]

The eunuch ih Acts 8 asked a question in answer to a question. He was reading Isa 53 when Phillip asked him if he understood what he was reading. He asked, how can I except some man should guide me. Good question.

Cornelius in Acts 10 in the year 40 AD wanted to be saved and God sent him a man, Peter, who had witnessed the resurrection, opened the door of faith to the gentiles. The first letter addressed to gentiles, Galatians, was not penned until 49 AD.

God said Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.Rom 10:13

It is said in 1 Cor 1 that God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Don’t think the word of God is not important but it is not the first tool of evangelism. It is for saved people

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

But, I think I know what you mean.

 

[JD731]

The eleven references:

Isaiah 13:10.
Isaiah 24:23.
Ezekiel 32:7.
Joel 2:10.
Joel 2:31.
Joel 3:15.
Matthew 24:29.
Mark 13:24.
Luke 21:25.
Acts 2:20.
Revelation 6:12.

Of the one event.

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man s heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

My question is why? Why did Peter quote this prophetic theme as the answer to the question the Jews asked "what meaneth this" when they heard the apostles preaching in Hebrew but they hearing them in the language of the nations they were born in?

There are words and phrases that appear in the writings of these prophets, as you have demonstrated, that appears by one after the other of them over centuries and yet have not been fulfilled even in our times. Wouldn't it be wise for the Bible student to define these words and phrases that are obviously themes and identify them?

1) Day of the Lord
2) Punishment of the wicked
3) The wrath of God
4) Darkness
5) Earthquake so severe that it moves the earth out of it's orbit

Are there Parallel prophecies going on here between Jesus and the nation of Israel?
Did the cross of Jesus Christ and his sufferings on it preview the sufferings of the nation Israel and the time of Jacobs trouble and the great tribulation?
Has the nation Israel died and been buried because of her sins and will she be three days in the graves and be raised from the dead early on the third day and be glorified and be the chief nation on the earth for all of eternity?

Ho 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

For context of who is being addressed I quote it in chapter 5.

5:8 Blow ye the cornet in Gibeah, and the trumpet in Ramah: cry aloud at Bethaven, after thee, O Benjamin.
9 Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be.
10 The princes of Judah were like them that remove the bound: therefore I will pour out my wrath upon them like water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

I confess to not having perfect understanding in all these matters but I am assessing these words from the standpoint of logic and reason and comparison of these prophecies over OT and NT occurrences and by many different authors over centuries of use. I believe I am right about the overall teaching but bare with me if I get lesser details wrong. There is a lot to know.

 

[JD731]

Ac 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

No one seems to have an opinion about this. How does this fit into your theological system? It looks like there are two parts to this prophesy. The notable day of the Lord is restricted from coming until sometime after the cosmic changes to the sun and moon. We know that God gives signs to Israel and these are signs that the day of the Lord is at hand. When they see them the day is nigh.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

All the Jewish apostles and prophets were given sign gifts for the purpose of confirming their gospel they preached to the Jews was from God. The apostolic era ended in 70 AD along with their national identity, and there were no more signs.

Here is a parable that Jesus gave.

Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lu 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

The fig tree is symbol for the nation.
The vineyard where the Fig tree was planted is the land
He came three years, the length of the ministry of Jesus to Israel
His physical ministry to them was over when this happened and so he gave them a 40 year probationary window to repent and then they cut the fig tree down and removed it from the vineyard.
The crucifixion of Jesus Christ AD 30. The end of Israel as a nation AD 70. This equals 40 years.
Fortunately, the vineyard is still there today.

Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (read chapter for context but it is a warning to this generation of Hebrews)

I am told that Titus and his army killed over a million Jews and destroyed Jerusalem because they did not repent.

 

[Ascetic X]

All the Jewish apostles and prophets were given sign gifts for the purpose of confirming their gospel they preached to the Jews was from God. The apostolic era ended in 70 AD along with their national identity, and there were no more signs.

“…and there were no more signs” is theological opinion that not all scholars agree upon.

Cessationism is, generally speaking, a doctrine of Reformed Christianity. Prior to the Protestant Reformation, there was no such explicit doctrine.

Historically, the Catholic, Methodist, Moravian, and Pentecostal traditions of Christianity have preached continuationism while Dispensationalist Baptist, the confessional Reformed and Presbyterian, and much of the Anglican traditions have been cessationist. Lutherans have held to a middle position, "open but cautious" continuationism, that views the full range of spiritual gifts as not given exclusively to the first-century canonical apostles.

There is nothing in the Bible that says healings, miracles, casting out spirits, etc. were only to confirm or establish the new faith. Nor does anything in the Bible say they passed away with the death of the original apostles or the completion of the canon.

John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


It makes no sense for such acts of mercy to be merely a limited time token or temporary tool. We still have people suffering from disease and demon possession today. For the gifts of the Holy Spirit to have been withdrawn is not the experience of, for example, missionaries in foreign lands where cessationism has not ruined the faith of the people.

Holy Spirit gifts still convince tribal populations that their voodoo, witch doctors, and pagan idols are not as powerful as Christ. Sermons and praise choruses are not enough to do that job.

Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[JD731]

“…and there were no more signs” is theological opinion that not all scholars agree upon.

Cessationism is, generally speaking, a doctrine of Reformed Christianity. Prior to the Protestant Reformation, there was no such explicit doctrine.

Historically, the Catholic, Methodist, Moravian, and Pentecostal traditions of Christianity have preached continuationism while Dispensationalist Baptist, the confessional Reformed and Presbyterian, and much of the Anglican traditions have been cessationist. Lutherans have held to a middle position, "open but cautious" continuationism, that views the full range of spiritual gifts as not given exclusively to the first-century canonical apostles.

This should be a bright red flag and it should tell you all about the so called "scholars" one needs to know. One scholar teaches one thing and another scholar teaches and believes another thing and another scholar barely has any conviction on the doctrine and every one is confused. However, it is not okay with God when one teaches error about these things. Too many other doctrines are affected by it. There is only one Holy Spirit teacher of the truths of God and he certainly is not going to teach contrary to himself. It is incumbent upon us to know the doctrines and to be faithful in our presentation to others and our own practice as well. Much is at stake. Cavalier attitudes about the great word of God is never wise.

John 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

There is nothing in the Bible that says healings, miracles, casting out spirits, etc. were only to confirm or establish the new faith. Nor does anything in the Bible say they passed away with the death of the original apostles or the completion of the canon.

The first man to ever to be commissioned to use signs is Moses at the burning bush. The context is his leadership over the people of Israel . This means there were no signs worked through men for 2000 previous years of history. Shem, Noah and Abraham did no signs. When Israel ceased being a nation in 70 AD there were no longer signs and miracles. There will be signs and miracles done by chosen men like Elijah and Moses and the 12000 preachers from each tribe of Israel in the future when God begins dealing with them as a nation once again in the Revelation. There will also be false signs to deceive the people.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Here is a definitive statement on sign gifts in the book of Hebrews, written to the Hebrew people.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we (Hebrews) ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we (Hebrews) should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us (Hebrews) by them that heard him (the apostles and prophets);

This is the apostles and prophets that he chose for this purpose. It is not you and me or anybody else.


4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

I wonder why this does not make sense to scholarly people.

John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


It makes no sense for such acts of mercy to be merely a limited time token or temporary tool. We still have people suffering from disease and demon possession today. For the gifts of the Holy Spirit to have been withdrawn is not the experience of, for example, missionaries in foreign lands where cessationism has not ruined the faith of the people.

Holy Spirit gifts still convince tribal populations that their voodoo, witch doctors, and pagan idols are not as powerful as Christ. Sermons and praise choruses are not enough to do that job.

Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

The church of Jesus Christ lives by faith and not by sight. The gifts of the Holy Ghost was given to a nation that did not have the whole Bible. When they got it then the miracles ended and the testimony of God was complete. The last NT book written was Jude in 69 AD, besides the 5 books written by John, whose name means, Jehovah is a gracious giver. He was the apostle of grace.

Context is always our friend and believing the words in their context is the wise course no matter how smart we think the scholars are.

 

[Ascetic X]

The gifts of the Holy Ghost was given to a nation that did not have the whole Bible. When they got it then the miracles ended and the testimony of God was complete.

Your unbiblical opinion makes it sound like once the whole Bible was canonized (Protestant Canon (1647 AD): The Westminster Confession of Faith finalized the Protestant canon of 66 books.) …

…God quit caring about sick, demon possessed, and disabled people. Think about how that fits with a God of mercy and love.

 

[JD731]

Your unbiblical opinion makes it sound like once the whole Bible was canonized (Protestant Canon (1647 AD): The Westminster Confession of Faith finalized the Protestant canon of 66 books.) …

…God quit caring about sick, demon possessed, and disabled people. Think about how that fits with a God of mercy and love.

Who do you know that does these miracles? Have you ever done one? Are there some missionaries and preachers that do them while some do not? The fact is that these gifts are apostolic sign gifts.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

The NT prophets were also equipped with certain of these sign gifts.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

We need to know they were prophets because they confirmed them with miracles and signs. Apostles and prophetes were the only ones with these gifts.

There is a set number of apostles of the Lord, 13. Twelve to Israel and 1 to gentiles. Likewise there are 70 prophets after the pattern of Moses in the wilderness. The 14th apostle is the Lord Jesus himself.

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

These are fixed numbers. There will be no others. They are the foundation of the church. There is no more need for them because after the dispersion of the nation God considered all men to be gentiles and the church has a gentile character. This is typified in at least 8 marriages between Jewish men and gentile women in the OT. Isaac, the miracle son of Abraham, and Rebekah, the son of a kinsman, being the first. Think Asia minor being the first evangelistic efforts for the apostle Paul, the apostle to the gentiles where the strangers and foreigners were..

Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

If you cannot see any of these things or if you think I am all wet, how did you say it, unbiblical opinion, we can depart as friends and not be perceived as arguing the scriptures. They are to be believed.

 

[JD731]

Lu 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

Mr 11:11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it
15 And they come to Jerusalem:

Mr 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

This is on the the 4th day after Jesus came to Bethany or the day of the week that we know as Wednesday. John said this;

Joh 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

This would be 6 days before what we call Friday and the fig tree was cursed on Wednesday, two days before the Passover.

Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Jesus would not go back to the temple again. These two days are symbolic of the two one thousand year days of God that we live in now called the church age when the nation of Israel is cursed and dried up. He said the temple would not even exist during these two days.

Matt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Of course that happened in AD 70. We know the absence of a temple is not permanent because as he continues to chronicle the age we have this prophecy from him.

24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The abomination of desolation is a person and the holy place is in the temple.

Obviously the temple was destroyed and will at some time be rebuilt and it will be in the future because it is not there now and has not been since the one in existence in Matt 24:1.

Some interesting and instructive facts to consider about the gospel accounts.

There are 89 chapters in the 4 gospels. Exactly 1/3 of them, 29, are concerned with the events of the last 8 days of Jesus on earth and John 21. If one is a careful and diligent student of the word of God he can find the events of each of those days. There is much information that can be gleaned from these chapters but not for someone who does not spend the time needful for finding it.

One must begin his study with John 12:1 where Jesus comes with his disciples to Bethany for the Passover where he would die for the sins of the whole world. There is hope for a restoration of the cursed fig tree but not immediately. Consider what Jesus says about it.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is additional events in this prophecy than in Acts 2.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In Matthew 24 this whole age is absent and no mention of the church at all. The key to understanding is the adverb "then." This gives a progression in order of the events of the history of these people of Israel from then until now. Anyone who sees the church of Jesus Christ in these passages are not going to understand it.

Israel is associated in type with 3 trees.
1) Vine - Family
2) Olive - Spiritual
3) Fig - National .

This should be cataloged in ones thinking.

 

[Ascetic X]

Who do you know that does these miracles? Have you ever done one? Are there some missionaries and preachers that do them while some do not? The fact is that these gifts are apostolic sign gifts.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

I am not going to disclose what I have done in the power of the Holy Spirit, for one should not boast or draw attention to oneself.

If some missionaries, pastors, elders, or believers do not perform healings, etc., it is because they have been wrongly instructed by teachers who lack faith in this regard.

I have had instant divine healing ministered to me by laying on of hands, plus many other miracles have happened in my life.

We know a doctrine is likely untrue when unbiblical terms are used. “Sign gifts” is a term not found in the Bible.

If only the original apostles could work signs, wonders, and mighty deeds, I suppose we cannot have patience either, which is included in that list.

The promise of Jesus in John 14:12 is not limited to the original apostles or to any time period.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.



James 5

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


We must believe the scriptures, not the dogma of men.

 

[JD731]

I am not going to disclose what I have done in the power of the Holy Spirit, for one should not boast or draw attention to oneself.

If some missionaries, pastors, elders, or believers do not perform healings, etc., it is because they have been wrongly instructed by teachers who lack faith in this regard.

I have had instant divine healing ministered to me by laying on of hands, plus many other miracles have happened in my life.

We know a doctrine is likely untrue when unbiblical terms are used. “Sign gifts” is a term not found in the Bible.

If only the original apostles could work signs, wonders, and mighty deeds, I suppose we cannot have patience either, which is included in that list.

The promise of Jesus in John 14:12 is not limited to the original apostles or to any time period.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.



James 5

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


We must believe the scriptures, not the dogma of men.

Ascetic X, I would like to disagree with you on this subject of signs and wonders on the grounds that these spiritual enablement's were exercised by the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ, Jesus himself and the 70 elders of Israel who were called prophets. No one else ever exercised these gifts but if you want to include the gift of tongues spoken by the household of Cornelius in Acts ten, I will merely say that the purpose of their speaking was a critical witness for the seven Jews who showed up at his home as instructed by God to preache the gospel for the first time to gentiles and open the door of faith to them. This was a full 10 years after the beginning of the church at Jerusalem in 30 AD and until this time was Jewish and Jewish proselytes only. The testimony of these Jews after the gentiles believed is proof of this.

Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1 Cor 1:22 - For the Jews require a sign.....

But more than that God gives us the qualifications of an apostle or prophet and no one today can meet those qualifications. They are foundational to the church and are in use only while Israel has a "national " presence on the earth. When the national presence ended so did the apostolic gifts. All the apostles and prophets were dead by 70 AD when the nation was pillaged, Jerusalem and the temple destroyed and the people dispersed. Only John remained and there is no record of him performing any miracles in his years after the dispersal.

Here are the qualifications spelled out particularly. They are from the word of God, and I believe them.

Acts 115 And in those days (the 10 days between the ascension of Jesus and Pentecost) Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us,(one of the 12) and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men ( the first qualification of an apostle) which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
(Here is the second qualification of an apostle) 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
(Here is the third qualification of an apostle) 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Time out. There must be 12 Jewish apostles because there are 12 tribes of Israel and these 12apostles are the foundation of the church of Jesus Christ while at the same time being appointed to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the kingdom age as well as in the eternal state. I did not say that But I read where Jesus said it just before Israel rejected him by crucifixion. Read it here.

Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

These words are plain and easy to understand, but very hard to believe. These men with these special kingdom gifts are said to be God' s first gifts to the church.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

[Note: these men did not receive these designations by being immersed into the church body but they were believers who already had been given these gifts and were immersed into the body]

I hope you can see the progression of the building and the wisdom of God.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Miracles and signs are kingdom miracles and the kingdom was taken off the table in AD 70 and became a gentile church in character after a 40 year probationary period for the Jews during which they refused to repent. Kingdom powers will be present again when there is a kingdom. There is much to know and I am persuaded that God will give more light to those who will accept the light he has already given.

There has never been a miracle working power given by God to any gentile or to any woman, whether a Jew or a gentile. I will change my mind if I am shown from the scriptures that this is not true. Also there has never been miracles by men outside the Jewish national context. That is not to say God has not worked miracles on behalf of us all as he has seen fit.

 

[Ascetic X]

Ascetic X, I would like to disagree with you on this subject of signs and wonders on the grounds that these spiritual enablement's were exercised by the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ, Jesus himself and the 70 elders of Israel who were called prophets. No one else ever exercised these gifts ….

There has never been a miracle working power given by God to any gentile or to any woman, whether a Jew or a gentile. I will change my mind if I am shown from the scriptures that this is not true. Also there has never been miracles by men outside the Jewish national context. That is not to say God has not worked miracles on behalf of us all as he has seen fit.

John 14:12 is not limited to the original apostles, Jews, males, or to any time period.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.



James 5

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


I Corinthians 12 says that gentiles received spiritual gifts, including healing and working of miracles.


1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: