Did Aaron Invent Rock Music 3400 or So Years Ago Before Elvis?

[Scripture More Accurately]

All worldly music, including classical, is unholy.

No, there is a lot of classical music that was originated and written by godly people like Bach, Handel and others.

 

[Ascetic X]

No, there is a lot of classical music that was originated and written by godly people like Bach, Handel and others.

That is like saying a lot of rock music is originated by godly people in contemporary Christian CCM and Southern Gospel.

Much of classical music is pagan in its focus on pre-Christian, "earthy" spirituality, heathen beliefs, and mythology.

• Nature Worship & Pantheism: Composers such as Arnold Bax, Edward Elgar, and Ralph Vaughan Williams often sought spiritual inspiration in the wild landscape rather than the church.
• Mythology & Folklore: Music based on Celtic, Norse, and Greco-Roman myths is abundant. Examples include Bax’s In the Faery Hills and The Garden of Fand, which draw on Irish legend and seafaring.
• Ritualistic & Primal Themes: Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is perhaps the most famous example, explicitly depicting a primitive human sacrifice pagan ritual, complete with barbaric rhythms.
• The Influence of Pan: The Greek god Pan, representing nature and sensuality, often appears, as in Granville Bantock’s The Great God Pan and various works by Debussy.

Key Composers with Pagan Influences

• Arnold Bax: Known as a "tireless hunter of dreams" with a strongly Celtic, mystical style that embraced nature.
• Gustav Holst: Interested in Eastern philosophy and astrology, his work The Planets combines cosmic themes with mythical and astrological ideas, while Egdon Heath is a moody, stark portrayal of natural landscape.
• Ralph Vaughan Williams: While agnostic, he felt a "nature mysticism" connected to the English countryside and ancient sites like Stonehenge, evident in his Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No. 9.
• Granville Bantock: Heavily focused on pagan and oriental themes, producing a Pagan Symphony(1928) and Celtic Symphony.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

That is like saying a lot of rock music is originated by godly people in contemporary Christian CCM and Southern Gospel.

Much of classical music is pagan in its focus on pre-Christian, "earthy" spirituality, heathen beliefs, and mythology.

• Nature Worship & Pantheism: Composers such as Arnold Bax, Edward Elgar, and Ralph Vaughan Williams often sought spiritual inspiration in the wild landscape rather than the church.
• Mythology & Folklore: Music based on Celtic, Norse, and Greco-Roman myths is abundant. Examples include Bax’s In the Faery Hills and The Garden of Fand, which draw on Irish legend and seafaring.
• Ritualistic & Primal Themes: Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is perhaps the most famous example, explicitly depicting a primitive human sacrifice pagan ritual, complete with barbaric rhythms.
• The Influence of Pan: The Greek god Pan, representing nature and sensuality, often appears, as in Granville Bantock’s The Great God Pan and various works by Debussy.

Key Composers with Pagan Influences

• Arnold Bax: Known as a "tireless hunter of dreams" with a strongly Celtic, mystical style that embraced nature.
• Gustav Holst: Interested in Eastern philosophy and astrology, his work The Planets combines cosmic themes with mythical and astrological ideas, while Egdon Heath is a moody, stark portrayal of natural landscape.
• Ralph Vaughan Williams: While agnostic, he felt a "nature mysticism" connected to the English countryside and ancient sites like Stonehenge, evident in his Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No. 9.
• Granville Bantock: Heavily focused on pagan and oriental themes, producing a Pagan Symphony(1928) and Celtic Symphony.

Just because there have been evil people who made classical music does not prove that it was originated by evil people.

 

[Ascetic X]

Just because there have been evil people who made classical music does not prove that it was originated by evil people.

But that is your position about rock music.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

But that is your position about rock music.

No, it is not. Rock music was originated by evil people. I have never heard of anyone even try to make the case that classical music was originated by evil people. If you know of evidence that supports that claim, I would like to see it.

 

[Ascetic X]

No, it is not. Rock music was originated by evil people. I have never heard of anyone even try to make the case that classical music was originated by evil people. If you know of evidence that supports that claim, I would like to see it.

Name the evil people who originated rock music.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Name the evil people who originated rock music.

Your response shows that you have no evidence to support your view that classical music was originated by ungodly people. By striking contrast, many people, both secular and Christian, have documented the evil origins of rock music. If you want that evidence, do some research because finding that evidence is not hard.

 

[Ascetic X]

Your response shows that you have no evidence to support your view that classical music was originated by ungodly people. By striking contrast, many people, both secular and Christian, have documented the evil origins of rock music. If you want that evidence, do some research because finding that evidence is not hard.

You know that I already listed quite a few ungodly classical music composers, but you cannot list any ungodly rock musicians.

 

[Ascetic X]

No, it is not. Rock music was originated by evil people. I have never heard of anyone even try to make the case that classical music was originated by evil people. If you know of evidence that supports that claim, I would like to see it.

Once again, to refresh your memory. Added a few more for you.

Much of classical music is pagan in its focus on pre-Christian, "earthy" spirituality, heathen beliefs, and mythology.

• Nature Worship & Pantheism: Composers such as Arnold Bax, Edward Elgar, and Ralph Vaughan Williams often sought spiritual inspiration in the wild landscape rather than the church.
• Mythology & Folklore: Music based on Celtic, Norse, and Greco-Roman myths is abundant. Examples include Bax’s In the Faery Hills and The Garden of Fand, which draw on Irish legend and seafaring.
• Ritualistic & Primal Themes: Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is perhaps the most famous example, explicitly depicting a primitive human sacrifice pagan ritual, complete with barbaric rhythms.
• The Influence of Pan: The Greek god Pan, representing nature and sensuality, often appears, as in Granville Bantock’s The Great God Panand various works by Debussy.

Key Composers with Pagan Influences

• Hector Berlioz, though raised Catholic, became agnostic and openly critical of organized religion. Nevertheless, he composed grand sacred works, such as the Requiem and Te Deum, driven more by dramatic and architectural inspiration than by religious fervor. He often admired the aesthetics of belief without embracing its doctrines.
  Giuseppe Verdi, though baptized Catholic, held strong anti-clerical views and frequently criticized Church hypocrisy. Despite his skepticism, he composed deeply spiritual works such as his Requiem, which reflects not doctrine but a dramatic confrontation with mortality. His faith in human dignity often replaced religious orthodoxy.
  Claude Debussy was raised in a Catholic context but became strongly anti-religious in adulthood. He rejected traditional beliefs and often expressed disdain for religious institutions, preferring a sensual, nature-based mysticism that found its way into his music.
  Dmitri Shostakovich lived under the atheist policies of the Soviet Union. He publicly aligned with state atheism.
• Johannes Brahms: raised in a Lutheran household, became a lifelong agnostic. Though he rejected institutional religion, he maintained a deep respect for spiritual tradition and often expressed a reverence for nature and the metaphysical. His German Requiem, one of his greatest works, avoids Christian dogma and instead offers a humanistic meditation on mortality and comfort.
• Arnold Bax: Known as a "tireless hunter of dreams" with a strongly Celtic, mystical style that embraced nature.
• Gustav Holst: Interested in Eastern philosophy and astrology, his work The Planets combines cosmic themes with mythical and astrological ideas, while Egdon Heath is a moody, stark portrayal of natural landscape.
• Ralph Vaughan Williams: While agnostic, he felt a "nature mysticism" connected to the English countryside and ancient sites like Stonehenge, evident in his Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No. 9.
• Granville Bantock: Heavily focused on pagan and oriental themes, producing a Pagan Symphony(1928) and Celtic Symphony.
• Mozart: A Freemason.
• Ludwig van Beethoven, though baptized and raised Catholic, drifted toward a more personal and deistic spirituality. He rejected institutional religion, but believed strongly in a moral, divine force, often referencing the immortality of the soul and divine inspiration in his letters and sketchbooks.
• Richard Wagner developed a complex and often contradictory view of religion. He rejected Christianity as he aged and embraced a mystical, quasi-pagan worldview, inspired by German mythology, Schopenhauer’s philosophy, and Buddhist concepts.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Once again, to refresh your memory.

Much of classical music is pagan in its focus on pre-Christian, "earthy" spirituality, heathen beliefs, and mythology.

• Nature Worship & Pantheism: Composers such as Arnold Bax, Edward Elgar, and Ralph Vaughan Williams often sought spiritual inspiration in the wild landscape rather than the church.
• Mythology & Folklore: Music based on Celtic, Norse, and Greco-Roman myths is abundant. Examples include Bax’s In the Faery Hills and The Garden of Fand, which draw on Irish legend and seafaring.
• Ritualistic & Primal Themes: Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is perhaps the most famous example, explicitly depicting a primitive human sacrifice pagan ritual, complete with barbaric rhythms.
• The Influence of Pan: The Greek god Pan, representing nature and sensuality, often appears, as in Granville Bantock’s The Great God Panand various works by Debussy.

Key Composers with Pagan Influences

• Arnold Bax: Known as a "tireless hunter of dreams" with a strongly Celtic, mystical style that embraced nature.
• Gustav Holst: Interested in Eastern philosophy and astrology, his work The Planets combines cosmic themes with mythical and astrological ideas, while Egdon Heath is a moody, stark portrayal of natural landscape.
• Ralph Vaughan Williams: While agnostic, he felt a "nature mysticism" connected to the English countryside and ancient sites like Stonehenge, evident in his Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No. 9.
• Granville Bantock: Heavily focused on pagan and oriental themes, producing a Pagan Symphony(1928) and Celtic Symphony.

This does not prove anything about evil people originating classical music. You have no proof for your apparent claim.

I could list numerous ungodly rock musicians, but that would take this thread in a direction that would not be helpful. Again, if you need help finding out if there are any ungodly rock musicians, feel free to do some research. It will not be hard to find.

Furthermore, I have not made any claims that all classical music is godly. The crucial question is whether you have evidence to show that it was originated by ungodly people for ungodly purposes.

 

[Ascetic X]

This does not prove anything about evil people originating classical music. You have no proof for your apparent claim.

Furthermore, I have not made any claims that all classical music is godly. The crucial question is whether you have evidence to show that it was originated by ungodly people for ungodly purposes.

Since I have twice listed a lot of ungodly men who originated classical music, but you pretend you did not read what I posted, you are unworthy of further discussion on this topic.

When presented with an abundance of facts, you bury your head in the sand and deny what everyone can plainly see.

Key Composers with Pagan Influences

• Hector Berlioz, though raised Catholic, became agnostic and openly critical of organized religion. Nevertheless, he composed grand sacred works, such as the Requiem and Te Deum, driven more by dramatic and architectural inspiration than by religious fervor. He often admired the aesthetics of belief without embracing its doctrines.
  Giuseppe Verdi, though baptized Catholic, held strong anti-clerical views and frequently criticized Church hypocrisy. Despite his skepticism, he composed deeply spiritual works such as his Requiem, which reflects not doctrine but a dramatic confrontation with mortality. His faith in human dignity often replaced religious orthodoxy.
  Claude Debussy was raised in a Catholic context but became strongly anti-religious in adulthood. He rejected traditional beliefs and often expressed disdain for religious institutions, preferring a sensual, nature-based mysticism that found its way into his music.
  Dmitri Shostakovich lived under the atheist policies of the Soviet Union. He publicly aligned with state atheism.
• Johannes Brahms: raised in a Lutheran household, became a lifelong agnostic. Though he rejected institutional religion, he maintained a deep respect for spiritual tradition and often expressed a reverence for nature and the metaphysical. His German Requiem, one of his greatest works, avoids Christian dogma and instead offers a humanistic meditation on mortality and comfort.
• Arnold Bax: Known as a "tireless hunter of dreams" with a strongly Celtic, mystical style that embraced nature.
• Gustav Holst: Interested in Eastern philosophy and astrology, his work The Planets combines cosmic themes with mythical and astrological ideas, while Egdon Heath is a moody, stark portrayal of natural landscape.
• Ralph Vaughan Williams: While agnostic, he felt a "nature mysticism" connected to the English countryside and ancient sites like Stonehenge, evident in his Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No. 9.
• Granville Bantock: Heavily focused on pagan and oriental themes, producing a Pagan Symphony(1928) and Celtic Symphony.
• Mozart: A Freemason.
• Ludwig van Beethoven, though baptized and raised Catholic, drifted toward a more personal and deistic spirituality. He rejected institutional religion, but believed strongly in a moral, divine force, often referencing the immortality of the soul and divine inspiration in his letters and sketchbooks.
• Richard Wagner developed a complex and often contradictory view of religion. He rejected Christianity as he aged and embraced a mystical, quasi-pagan worldview, inspired by German mythology, Schopenhauer’s philosophy, and Buddhist concepts.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Since I have twice listed a lot of ungodly men who originated classical music, but you pretend you did not read what I posted, you are unworthy of further discussion on this topic.

When presented with an abundance of facts, you bury your head in the sand and deny what everyone can plainly see.

No, none of these people originated classical music in the sense of being the first ones in the world to play or compose classical music of any kind. That is the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying.

If you have any objective evidence that ungodly people were the first ones in human history to originate classical music of any kind, that is the kind of evidence that is relevant to this discussion.

 

[Ascetic X]

No, none of these people originated classical music in the sense of being the first ones in the world to play or compose classical music of any kind. That is the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying.

If you have any objective evidence that ungodly people were the first ones in human history to originate classical music of any kind, that is the kind of evidence that is relevant to this discussion.

Now you have revealed how little you know about music.

The primary originators of the Classical music period (c. 1750–1820) are the "Viennese School" composers: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, who refined the forms; and Ludwig van Beethoven, who expanded them. They solidified the symphonic, concerto, and chamber music structures.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Now you have revealed how little you know about music.

The primary originators of the Classical music period (c. 1750–1820) are the "Viennese School" composers: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, who refined the forms; and Ludwig van Beethoven, who expanded them. They solidified the symphonic, concerto, and chamber music structures.

When I speak of music as classical music, I am not speaking of it in the technical sense that you are talking about concerning people in any given "period." In any case, further discussion with you is going to be pointless because you still have no evidence that classical music in the broad sense of the word was originated by ungodly people.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Here is what a Bing search produced to the question, "What is classical music?"

Classical music is a broad tradition of Western art music characterized by formal composition, technical skill, and expressive depth, evolving from the medieval period to the present day.​

Definition and Characteristics​

Classical music refers to a tradition of formal Western music that emphasizes structured composition and technical mastery. It is distinct from popular and folk music, often featuring complex harmonies, intricate orchestration, and established forms such as symphonies, concertos, and sonatas. The term "classical" can also refer specifically to the Classical period (1750-1820), but it broadly encompasses music from approximately the 11th century to the present day Wikipedia+1.

Historical Context​

Classical music has its roots in the liturgical and secular traditions of Europe. It began as a written tradition, evolving from early religious music to more complex forms. The development of staff notation in the 11th century allowed for greater complexity and precision in musical composition. Over the centuries, classical music has traversed several distinct stylistic periods, including:

• Medieval (c. 500-1400): Characterized by monophonic chant and the beginnings of polyphony.
• Renaissance (c. 1400-1600): Marked by the rise of choral music and the use of harmony.
• Baroque (c. 1600-1750): Known for elaborate ornamentation, the development of opera, and complex instrumental forms like the concerto and fugue.
• Classical (c. 1750-1820): Emphasized clarity, balance, and formal structures, with composers like Haydn, Mozart, and early Beethoven shaping its foundations.
• Romantic (c. 1820-1900): Focused on emotional expression and individualism, featuring larger orchestras and richer harmonies.
• Modern (20th century-present): Characterized by experimentation and innovation, with composers exploring new styles and techniques Encyclopedia Britannica+2.

Influence and Legacy​

Classical music has significantly influenced modern music genres and cultural life. Its emphasis on formal composition and technical skill has shaped the development of various musical styles and continues to be a vital part of music education and performance today. The tradition remains relevant, with contemporary composers blending classical techniques with modern elements, ensuring its ongoing evolution Wikipedia+2.
In summary, classical music is a rich and diverse tradition that reflects centuries of musical evolution, characterized by its complexity, emotional depth, and formal structures. It remains a cornerstone of Western musical heritage and continues to inspire musicians and audiences alike.

Using "classical" to speak of music in this non-technical sense is very common and legitimate.

 

[Mr. Lunt]

The more pressing question is what song were they playing? "It's a long way to the top (of Mt. Sinai) if you're gonna rock and roll"? "Sweet Calf O' Mine"?

 

[JonC]

What is missing here is a definition of the word "rock." How do we know if something is rock music or not?

We really don't as it is cultural (there is no specific formula). For example, most of today's country music would fall into the rock genre of yesterday.

Music is music. It is an expression of something. That something defines whether it is good or bad (morally), but individual preferences determine if it is good or bad to our taste.

Rock songs, for example, are no less "bad" (morally) than some of Hank William Sr. songs of the 40's and 50's (sex and drinking...like Move it On Over, Honky Tonkin'). It is a matter of taste....how you prefer your poison.

The issue is less genres and more what one accepts into their lives because they like the music style. It is what is accepted rather than the mode in which it is presented.

 

[JonC]

The more pressing question is what song were they playing? "It's a long way to the top (of Mt. Sinai) if you're gonna rock and roll"? "Sweet Calf O' Mine"?

Maybe "Welcome to the Wonder"?

 

[JonC]

Yeah, that stuff's not even music, not even rock music!

My view of rock: always 4/4 time, emphasis on the off beat (2nd and 4th; syncopation), heavy bass (usually electric), heavy amplification (loudness), electric guitars (usually solid body, but not always).

The only element of these we can be sure of about Egyptian music in this regard, is that they had varieties of drums that later Israelite music did not have.

But rock music is not always 4/4 time. So maybe that was at one time a mark of Rock music, but music evolves. The "4/4 time rule" has not been true since at least the late 1960's.

 

[John of Japan]

But rock music is not always 4/4 time. So maybe that was at one time a mark of Rock music, but music evolves. The "4/4 time rule" has not been true since at least the late 1960's.

Okay, name me a rock song from, say, the '70s that is not 4/4. (So with this knowledge, you're a musician, right? What do you play? I'm a guitarist.)

We really don't as it is cultural (there is no specific formula). For example, most of today's country music would fall into the rock genre of yesterday.

I do agree that today's country music is mostly rock.

However, experts do quantify rock. For example:
“Rock and roll combined the unrelenting beat of rhythm and blues with the milder guitar background of country music and drew on numerous elements in both traditions, from rhythm to timber. The instrumentation consisted of amplified or electric guitars for both rhythm and melody, backed by electric bass and drums, and sometimes augmented by other instruments.”
J. Peter Burkholder, Donald Jay Grout, Claude V. Palisca, A History of Western Music, 8th ed., p. 912.

Music is music. It is an expression of something. That something defines whether it is good or bad (morally), but individual preferences determine if it is good or bad to our taste.

Rock from the start has mostly been about amorous relationships, mostly immoral ones. “The words, most often concerned with love or sex, were often delivered in a raucous, sometimes wailing voice, although there were also gentle romantic ballads sung in a deliberately subdued mode” Ibid, 912.

Rock songs, for example, are no less "bad" (morally) than some of Hank William Sr. songs of the 40's and 50's (sex and drinking...like Move it On Over, Honky Tonkin'). It is a matter of taste....how you prefer your poison.

To me it depends mostly on the lyrics as to whether a rock song is immoral or not. However, Frank Garlock points out that, unlike in classical music, there is no letup in rock. In other words, it keeps building the tension with no release. That, to him, explains the immorality so often associated with rock. The emotional and physical release has to happen somewhere.

The issue is less genres and more what one accepts into their lives because they like the music style. It is what is accepted rather than the mode in which it is presented.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this.