Preterism and Partial Preterism

[Psalty]

Hey all, not sure what forum to post this in, this one seemed best.

What do you think about Preterism in its many form? I looked at it pretty seriously a while back.

PRO:
“But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
— Matthew 10:23
Seems to indicate a return in judgement before 70AD

CON: If Revelation is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, why does the warning only go to the churches in Asia minor and not to Jerusalem? Makes no sense.

 

[37818]

There is absolutely zero evidence Matthew 24:29 occurred in 70AD.

 

[JesusFan]

Hey all, not sure what forum to post this in, this one seemed best.

What do you think about Preterism in its many form? I looked at it pretty seriously a while back.

PRO:
“But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
— Matthew 10:23
Seems to indicate a return in judgement before 70AD

CON: If Revelation is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, why does the warning only go to the churches in Asia minor and not to Jerusalem? Makes no sense.

Partial view acceptable, full blown one heresy

 

[Psalty]

There is absolutely zero evidence Matthew 24:29 occurred in 70AD.

I agree with you on this, but how do you understand Matthew 10 quoted above?

 

[Psalty]

Partial view acceptable, full blown one heresy

I agree with this as well. I still find viewing the book of Revelation as a book about ad 70 to be untenable since it’s written to the church in Turkey, but the predators will argue. It’s about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

 

[37818]

I agree with you on this, but how do you understand Matthew 10 quoted above?

Matthew 10:23, But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Will be during verse 21, And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Which I think is during Revelation 13:15.


And didn't happen in 70AD.

 

[JesusFan]

I agree with this as well. I still find viewing the book of Revelation as a book about ad 70 to be untenable since it’s written to the church in Turkey, but the predators will argue. It’s about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

There is still much to yet happen

 

[Psalty]

There is still much to yet happen

While I get the analogizing of Revelation and that you can Spiritualize it for general principles, there is way to much specific stuff to think this is 70AD and Jerusalem.

At this point I tend to default to just a Historical Premillenial view like Ireneaus held. Although I can appreciate the Amillenial view, it came late after the apostles in the 300s…

 

[JesusFan]

While I get the analogizing of Revelation and that you can Spiritualize it for general principles, there is way to much specific stuff to think this is 70AD and Jerusalem.

At this point I tend to default to just a Historical Premillenial view like Ireneaus held. Although I can appreciate the Amillenial view, it came late after the apostles in the 300s…

many Reformed Baptist think hold to the historical premil viewpoint

 

[J.D.]

Hey all, not sure what forum to post this in, this one seemed best.

What do you think about Preterism in its many form? I looked at it pretty seriously a while back.

PRO:
“But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
— Matthew 10:23
Seems to indicate a return in judgement before 70AD

CON: If Revelation is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, why does the warning only go to the churches in Asia minor and not to Jerusalem? Makes no sense.

For several years I was satisfied with my Partial Preterism and Post Mil approach to the end times. After the Presbyterians got up a big fuss with one another over something Gary DeMar had said or done, threatening to kick him out their church as such like, I decided that I needed to check out this "Full Preterism" thing and see what it was all the fuss was about and why they were so scared of it. So I ordered a bundle of books from Don Preston*, one of their chief prophets, Thus began a series of theological atomic bombs going off in my brain. So many questions were answered, so many blanks were filled in, it was absolutely amazing. No wonder the creedalists are so afraid of it. Some of their teachings are indesputable.

I say "some". No, I have not raised the FP flag, and I don't know that I ever will, but as RC Sproul said, the witness of this theology must be taken into account, and it cannot be denied that it represents a thoroughly Biblical approach to eschatology.

*I have since come to disagree sharply with Preston on some things in the details, but the brilliance of the man is undeniable. He can quote scripture seemingly infinitely.

 

[Psalty]

For several years I was satisfied with my Partial Preterism and Post Mil approach to the end times. After the Presbyterians got up a big fuss with one another over something Gary DeMar had said or done, threatening to kick him out their church as such like, I decided that I needed to check out this "Full Preterism" thing and see what it was all the fuss was about and why they were so scared of it. So I ordered a bundle of books from Don Preston*, one of their chief prophets, Thus began a series of theological atomic bombs going off in my brain. So many questions were answered, so many blanks were filled in, it was absolutely amazing. No wonder the creedalists are so afraid of it. Some of their teachings are indesputable.

I say "some". No, I have not raised the FP flag, and I don't know that I ever will, but as RC Sproul said, the witness of this theology must be taken into account, and it cannot be denied that it represents a thoroughly Biblical approach to eschatology.

*I have since come to disagree sharply with Preston on some things in the details, but the brilliance of the man is undeniable. He can quote scripture seemingly infinitely.

I think wheree full Preterism falls apart from me is that it has to symbolize the future resurrection. I haven’t heard any full Preterists come up with an alternate explanation that retains a future bodily resurrection. Maybe I’m not educated enough in the nuances of Full Preterism.

I listened to Don Preston debate Steve Gregg who held the partial preterist position. I did not find Don’s arguments for full preterism persuasive against the verses that Steve was using. I believe Steve is coming out with a book arguing against full preterism. Will be interesting to read.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[J.D.]

I think wheree full Preterism falls apart from me is that it has to symbolize the future resurrection. I haven’t heard any full Preterists come up with an alternate explanation that retains a future bodily resurrection. Maybe I’m not educated enough in the nuances of Full Preterism.

I listened to Don Preston debate Steve Gregg who held the partial preterist position. I did not find Don’s arguments for full preterism persuasive against the verses that Steve was using. I believe Steve is coming out with a book arguing against full preterism. Will be interesting to read.

Thanks for sharing!

I think FP's only real weakness is the idea that the natural world goes on forever and is never redeemed, as in the creation is never freed of physical death, predation, etc. I think that's the only hang up I have with it.

 

[Psalty]

I think FP's only real weakness is the idea that the natural world goes on forever and is never redeemed, as in the creation is never freed of physical death, predation, etc. I think that's the only hang up I have with it.

Insightful comment, thanks!

 

[Oseas3]

There is absolutely zero evidence Matthew 24:29 occurred in 70AD.

Perfect, what you say confirms what is written in the Word of GOD. What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word was(and is) GOD-John 1:1.

Revelation 12:1 says:-> And there appeared a great wonder in heaven->(heaven?->Ephesians 1:3-10 and so on); a WOMAN clothed with the SUN, and the MOON under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Therefore, what will happen with the WOMAN from now on, in this current period of sorrows(Matthew 24:3-14),
and pre-tribulation period?-Matthew 24:15-28, and the SUN be darkened, and the MOON shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven->(REVELATION 12:3-4 combined with Isaiah 9:15-16, TAKE A LOOK), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken?

Matthew 24:30-33 -> What will happen from now on, due the LITERAL fulfillment of the verse29 above?

30 Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:->(Ephesians 1:3-10 and so on) and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.->(Revelation 1:7-8 and 6)

31 And he shall send his angels->(angels?->Luke 20:35-36 combined with Romans 8:18-19 and Philippians 3:20-21) with a great sound of a Trumpet, and they(they whom? Daniel 7:22 and 26-27 combined with 1Corinthians 6:2-3, take a look) shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Revelation 11:1-2 and 15-18:
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of GOD, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is WITHOUT the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. ->(1260 days, first half of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27).

Let us be prepared and careful or else get ready -> Matthew 25:6-10)

Amen

 

[Oseas3]

I agree with you on this, but how do you understand Matthew 10 quoted above?

Now, now, in Matthew 10:23 JESUS was not speaking about the destruction of the Temple->(Matthew 24:1-2) and destruction of the nation of Israel as a whole in the year 70AD by the Romans. ->By the way, Israel was PUNISHED severely from 70AD until 1948, 1878 years of STRONG AND SEVERE PUNISHMENTS AND CURSES, according to Deuteronomy 28:15-68, among other biblical references.

The precedent verse 22 says:
22 And ye (the disciples of JESUS, the believers) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the END(not in the year 70AD) shall be saved.-> as is written also in Matthew 24:13, and the prophetic verse 23 reveals the Gospel would be preached no more in Israel until the end of the times, even till the Son of man be come, what has fulfilled LITERALLY from 70AD until 1948.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Acts 1:11. "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
It is the same Jesus who will return, not a spirit version; the One who said, "Behold My hands and feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." He left visibly; He will return 'in like manner.' Clouds obscured Him as He left (Acts 1:9); clouds will reveal Him when He returns (Rev. 1:7). His departure was seen by witnesses; His return will, 'in like manner,' be seen by witnesses (e.g. Matthew 24:30).

There is absolutely zero evidence Matthew 24:29 occurred in 70AD.

Indeed! Matthew 24:14. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then [and not before] the end will come." It must be getting pretty close now, but in AD 70, it had hardly started.

 

[JesusFan]

I think FP's only real weakness is the idea that the natural world goes on forever and is never redeemed, as in the creation is never freed of physical death, predation, etc. I think that's the only hang up I have with it.

It denied the physical bodily resurrection as a future event

 

[Psalty]

Now, now, in Matthew 10:23 JESUS was not speaking about the destruction of the Temple->(Matthew 24:1-2) and destruction of the nation of Israel as a whole in the year 70AD by the Romans. ->By the way, Israel was PUNISHED severely from 70AD until 1948, 1878 years of STRONG AND SEVERE PUNISHMENTS AND CURSES, according to Deuteronomy 28:15-68, among other biblical references.

The precedent verse 22 says:
22 And ye (the disciples of JESUS, the believers) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the END(not in the year 70AD) shall be saved.-> as is written also in Matthew 24:13, and the prophetic verse 23 reveals the Gospel would be preached no more in Israel until the end of the times, even till the Son of man be come, what has fulfilled LITERALLY from 70AD until 1948.

I’ll put on my Preterist hat for a moment:
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
— Matthew 10:5

“But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
— Matthew 10:23

In context, Jesus is sending out the 12 to do ministry in his name. In speaking to them, he says that The Twelve will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

In what sense would the Son of Man come in context The Twelves ministry?
A) until he literally comes after them bringing the gospel Himself?
B) Jesus coming in judgement in AD 70?
C) Jesus coming in the sense of the Gospel?
D) Jesus coming in judgement at the end of the age during Tribulation?
E) Something else

It’s hard for me to think he is talking about the end of the age here when he is talking to His disciples.

 

[Oseas3]

Now, now, in Matthew 10:23 JESUS was not speaking about the destruction of the Temple->(Matthew 24:1-2) and destruction of the nation of Israel as a whole in the year 70AD by the Romans. ->By the way, Israel was PUNISHED severely from 70AD until 1948, 1878 years of STRONG AND SEVERE PUNISHMENTS AND CURSES, according to Deuteronomy 28:15-68, among other biblical references.

The precedent verse 22 says:
22 And ye (the disciples of JESUS, the believers) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the END(not in the year 70AD) shall be saved.-> as is written also in Matthew 24:13, and the prophetic verse 23 reveals the Gospel would be preached no more in Israel until the end of the times, even till the Son of man be come, what has fulfilled LITERALLY from 70AD until 1948.

In context, Jesus is sending out the 12 to do ministry in his name. In speaking to them, he says that The Twelve will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

JESUS had prophesied the destruction of the Temple, the den of the thieves, and it happened around 40 years after His ascension when the Romans invaded Israel in year 70AD, and they were banished out of the land->(Diaspora). JESUS was in heaven, at the right hand of the Father, He would still receive from the Father the sealed book of Revelation around 20 or 25 years after the destruction of Israel-Year 95AD. Around year 95AD there were 7 Churches of the Lord in Asia, founded by the Apostles and disciples of the Lord. ->Ephesians 2:19-20:-> 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of GOD; -> 20 And are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

In the prophetic verse 23 Lord JESUS reveals the Gospel would be preached no more in Israel until the END of the times, even till the Son of man be come.->2Thessalonians 2:1-2-> Paul Apostle warned:->1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

->What JESUS prophesied has fulfilled LITERALLY from 70AD until 1948. ->Luke 21:24 ->JESUS said: 24-And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations(DIASPORA): and Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ->REVELATION 11:2->(around year 95AD) -> 2 But the court which is WITHOUT the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. ->This prophecy will fulfill LITERALLY from now on.

In what sense would the Son of Man come in context The Twelves ministry?
A) until he literally comes after them bringing the gospel Himself?
B) Jesus coming in judgement in AD 70?
C) Jesus coming in the sense of the Gospel?
D) Jesus coming in judgement at the end of the age during Tribulation?
E) Something else

It’s hard for me to think he is talking about the end of the age here when he is talking to His disciples.

Luke 21:5-9 -> 5 JESUS said to the disciples: As some spake of the Temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts,-> and JESUS clarified them, saying, as follow:

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come(year 70AD, this was/is prophecy), in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. ->(The Romans invaded Israel and destroyed not only the Temple, the den of thieves, in LITERAL fulfillment of JESUS's prophecy, but also the nation of Israel as a whole. Such terrible event had nothing to do with persecutions, but severe CHASTISEMENTS according to the Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 53 verses of strong and severe curses and chastisements).

7 And they(the apostles) asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And JESUS said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying ->(not in the destruction of the nation of Israel-70AD-DIASPORA),saaying I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 And when ye shall hear of wars and commotions,be not terrified:for these things must first come to pass;but the END is not by and by.

Your thinking is from a human perspective, A STUMBLINGBLOCK, not from GOD's perspective. ->What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, understand?- John 1:1. -> By the Way, the Word was made flesh around 2000 years ago, and 4000 years after Adam, the fourth Day-Genesis 1:16, He is the Greater Light-> John 12:44-50 and He, the Word made flesh said:->John 5:17 -> My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. ->John 10:30)-> I and my Father are One.

That's it.

 

[kyredneck]

There is absolutely zero evidence Matthew 24:29 occurred in 70AD.

???

Fulfilled before the NT was even completed. Before THAT GENERATION had passed away:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16

It was actually fulfilled at Pentecost, 'the gospel bomb':

5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? Acts 2

Imagine this:
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55