Did Aaron Invent Rock Music 3400 or So Years Ago Before Elvis?

[Scripture More Accurately]

It establishes the fact that your criteria for determining what God accepts is you.

Biblically worship music was monophonic. Our traditional hymns is harmonic (they are Western as opposed to the music of the Bible).

This is why those in the Near East consider our traditional hymns to be jarring and "flat".

Biblically, no person in the Bible would find our traditional hymns appropriate for THEIR worship.

Western music did not exist in the times Scripture was being written.

What this proves is that you are elevating yourself to the role of God in determining what style of music is acceptable.


Take contemporary worship music (which has that "rock" element). Traditional hymns would be just as foreign, just as off putting to the ear of those who wrote down Scripture, just as "jarring".

Yet you sovereignly declare that your preference is God standard and the music styles of other Christians are rejected by God.

Wrong. My position is that the Bible never teaches that God accepts all the kinds of music of all the people of the earth. There are kinds of music that God accepts and kinds of music that He rejects.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Here is something I have not seen discussed when talking about this topic - rock music elements in Hebrew worship.

I am, obviously, not saying ancient Jews "rocked out". But at the same time our "traditional worship music" would have been strange in ancient Judiasm and early Church worship.

Again...obviously ancient Hebrew and Christian worship did not contain modern rock music. BUT it did incorporate several elements similar to rock's high-energy style, including loud percussion, amplified volume, and intense (sometimes dissonant) celebratory sounds.

If you entered the Temple you would not hear quiet or soft singing. Temple worship was loud, noisy and often what we would consider harsh sounding. The instruments used were not soft but instead designed for high volume.

The Levites utilized heavy percussion to keep time, including cymbals and frame drums. They used loud, clashing cymbals, along with trumpets to create a high-energy, almost "rock-like" volume.

Hebrew worship relied on repetitive, rhythmic, and chant-like structures, including repeated choral refrains similar to Contemporary Worship Music.

And like Contemporary Worship Music ancient Jewish worship often featured a lead-and-follow structure. Hebrew music was also very emotional.

Temple music was not merely rote (like singing from a hymnal) but often allowed for individual expression and improvisation.

The music focused on the octave, using deep low pitched instruments or voices. The use of "eight" or sheminith (low pitched stringed instrument) is mentioned for worship in Psalms 6 and 12, and in 1 Chronicles 15:21.


Again, I am NOT saying ancient Jews and the ancient church used rock music. But if you look at the elements in their music it has more in common with that genre than it does with traditional hymns. Much of Contemporary Worship Music has more in common with the music used in the Bible to worship than does "traditional" worship music.

Wrong. There is zero evidence in Scripture that says that the temple music featured clashing sounds of cymbals. In fact, 1 Corinthians 13:1 makes it certain that the music of the temple of God was not like a clanging cymbal.

Furthermore, there is zero Bible that says that the Levites used "heavy percussion to keep time." They did use a few select percussion instruments, but the rest of what you say is never stated in Scripture.

 

[Ascetic X]

Wrong. There is zero evidence in Scripture that says that the temple music featured clashing sounds of cymbals. In fact, 1 Corinthians 13:1 makes it certain that the music of the temple of God was not like a clanging cymbal.

Furthermore, there is zero Bible that says that the Levites used "heavy percussion to keep time." They did use a few select percussion instruments, but the rest of what you say is never stated in Scripture.

Wrong again. Cymbals were used in OT temple worship.

Cymbals are brash musical instruments of percussion. The term is used in the A. V. in all passages except one (Zech. xiv. 20) as the rendering of the Hebrew "ẓelẓelim" and "meẓiltayim."

Known to most nations of antiquity, cymbals served to mark time or rhythm at dances or for singers and other musical performers. This is also their function in the Bible.

In Ezra 3:10 they accompany "ḥaẓoẓerot" (trumpets) only; but elsewhere they are mentioned in connection with several other instruments.

Ezra 3:10

And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.

They were prominent in the music at religious ceremonies (I Chron. xv. 16, 19; II Chron. v. 13, xxix. 25; Neh. xii. 27).

Levites were set apart as cymbalists (I Chron. xvi. 42).

Cymbals were made of brass (I Chron. xv. 19; Josephus, "Ant." vii. 12, § 3; Yer. Suk. v., end), or of copper with a slight admixture of silver, to judge from a pair found in an Egyptian tomb. They varied considerably in size.

Among the Arabs two different sets are in use: one, of a large diameter, at religious ceremonies; the other, of smaller size, to accompany the dance. A similar difference seems to be indicated by the several qualifications of the cymbals mentioned in Ps. cl. 5; viz., "high sounding" ("ẓilẓele teru'ah") and "loud" ("ẓilẓele shema'").

The fact that Josephus (l. c.) describes only one kind, πλατέα and μεγάλα ("broad" and "large"), has not been without weight in shaping the opinion that, as among the Arabs, so among the Hebrews, only the broad sort—i.e., those of large diameter—were per mitted at holy offices.

The Mishnah, too ('Ar. 13a; compare Gem. 13b), is emphatic in stating that only one pair was used in the Temple. The "loud" (shema') cymbals have, in consequence, been explained as castanets, i.e., four small plates fastened to the thumbs and forefingers of both hands (=κρέμβαλα, "seistra"; see Pfeiffer, "Ueber die Musik der Hebräer," p. 54)—but there is no warrant for the assumption (see illustrations in "Psalms," ed. Haupt, "S. B. O. T." pp. 232, 233).

The cymbals in use in the Second Temple were credited by the Rabbis of the Talmud with great antiquity, and had undergone repairs impairing the quality of the tone (Yer. Suk. v., end). Still their loud and far-carrying sound was also remembered (ib. 55c, below; Tamid 30b).

The Temple cymbals were in charge of a special officer: Ben Arza is mentioned in this capacity (Sheḳ. v. 1; Yer. Sheḳ. 48a). His instruments gave the signal for the Levites to chant the psalms (Tamid vii. 3, 4). The verb used to denote playing on the cymbals is "hiḳḳish" (), which, in connection with the preposition "upon" () occurring in some passages (where, however, other readings have ב = "with"), may possibly indicate that the instrument in the Temple consisted of only one plate, which was stationary, and was beaten by the performer with a clapper or hammer.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Wrong again. Cymbals were used in OT temple worship.

Cymbals are brash musical instruments of percussion. The term is used in the A. V. in all passages except one (Zech. xiv. 20) as the rendering of the Hebrew "ẓelẓelim" and "meẓiltayim."

Known to most nations of antiquity, cymbals served to mark time or rhythm at dances or for singers and other musical performers. This is also their function in the Bible. In Ezra iii. 10 they accompany "ḥaẓoẓerot" (trumpets) only; but elsewhere they are mentioned in connection with several other instruments.

They were prominent in the music at religious ceremonies (I Chron. xv. 16, 19; II Chron. v. 13, xxix. 25; Neh. xii. 27). Levites were set apart as cymbalists (I Chron. xvi. 42).

Cymbals were made of brass (I Chron. xv. 19; Josephus, "Ant." vii. 12, § 3; Yer. Suk. v., end), or of copper with a slight admixture of silver, to judge from a pair found in an Egyptian tomb. They varied considerably in size.

Among the Arabs two different sets are in use: one, of a large diameter, at religious ceremonies; the other, of smaller size, to accompany the dance. A similar difference seems to be indicated by the several qualifications of the cymbals mentioned in Ps. cl. 5; viz., "high sounding" ("ẓilẓele teru'ah") and "loud" ("ẓilẓele shema'").

The fact that Josephus (l. c.) describes only one kind, πλατέα and μεγάλα ("broad" and "large"), has not been without weight in shaping the opinion that, as among the Arabs, so among the Hebrews, only the broad sort—i.e., those of large diameter—were per mitted at holy offices.

The Mishnah, too ('Ar. 13a; compare Gem. 13b), is emphatic in stating that only one pair was used in the Temple. The "loud" (shema') cymbals have, in consequence, been explained as castanets, i.e., four small plates fastened to the thumbs and forefingers of both hands (=κρέμβαλα, "seistra"; see Pfeiffer, "Ueber die Musik der Hebräer," p. 54)—but there is no warrant for the assumption (see illustrations in "Psalms," ed. Haupt, "S. B. O. T." pp. 232, 233).

The cymbals in use in the Second Temple were credited by the Rabbis of the Talmud with great antiquity, and had undergone repairs impairing the quality of the tone (Yer. Suk. v., end). Still their loud and far-carrying sound was also remembered (ib. 55c, below; Tamid 30b).

The Temple cymbals were in charge of a special officer: Ben Arza is mentioned in this capacity (Sheḳ. v. 1; Yer. Sheḳ. 48a). His instruments gave the signal for the Levites to chant the psalms (Tamid vii. 3, 4). The verb used to denote playing on the cymbals is "hiḳḳish" (), which, in connection with the preposition "upon" () occurring in some passages (where, however, other readings have ב = "with"), may possibly indicate that the instrument in the Temple consisted of only one plate, which was stationary, and was beaten by the performer with a clapper or hammer.

No, you are wrong again. I did not say that cymbals were not used in OT Temple worship. My comment was in response to the claim that they were used to produce clashing sounds in Temple worship.

 

[Ascetic X]

No, you are wrong again. I did not say that cymbals were not used in OT Temple worship. My comment was in response to the claim that they were used to produce clashing sounds in Temple worship.

But that is the sound cymbals make, clashing sounds. Have you never heard them?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

But that is the sound cymbals make, clashing sounds. Have you never heard them?

Of course, I have heard them. My church uses them sparingly and in appropriate ways. There are godly ways of using them and ungodly ways of using them:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

NAU 1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

The Spirit sets forth a negative comparison between loveless speech and certain soundings of brass and cymbals. If such soundings of those instruments were the only kinds of sounds that they make, the Spirit would be contradicting what He Himself inspired in the OT.

He did not contradict Himself; there are godly ways of using cymbals and there are ungodly ways of doing so.

 

[Ascetic X]

Of course, I have heard them. My church uses them sparingly and in appropriate ways. There are godly ways of using them and ungodly ways of using them:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

NAU 1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

The Spirit sets forth a negative comparison between loveless speech and certain soundings of brass and cymbals. If such soundings of those instruments were the only kinds of sounds that they make, the Spirit would be contradicting what He Himself inspired in the OT.

He did not contradict Himself; there are godly ways of using cymbals and there are ungodly ways of doing so.

Are there godly and ungodly ways of playing the kazoo? Thumb piano? Harmonica? Jaw harp? Hand bells? Bagpipes? Triangle?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Are there godly and ungodly ways of playing the kazoo? Thumb piano? Harmonica? Jaw harp? Hand bells? Bagpipes? Triangle?

The Bible does not ever say that any and all ways of sounding any and all instruments are always and only pleasing to God.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Getting back to Exodus 32 and the actual topic of this thread, there is no basis from Scripture to say that Aaron invented rock music 3400 years ago before Elvis because it is impossible to know from Scripture whether the music of the GCI was rock music or not.

Instead, what we must say and focus on is that the worship revealed in Exodus 32 was demonic worship that was not the wisdom of God that is from above but was earthly, sensual and demonic wisdom.

 

[JonC]

My position is that the Bible never teaches that God accepts all the kinds of music of all the people of the earth. There are kinds of music that God accepts and kinds of music that He rejects.

Yes, that is what I said. Your position is, essentually, music that sounds "warlike" and harsh to your ear sounds the same to God because God has adopted your preferences.

Scripture does not say that God rejects worship based on the style of music used. You say that.

The logical conclusion is God rejects your worship - not because of style but because you condemn the worship of His children when they do not use music styles you prefer.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Yes, that is what I said. Your position is, essentually, music that sounds "warlike" and harsh to your ear sounds the same to God because God has adopted your preferences.

Scripture does not say that God rejects worship based on the style of music used. You say that.

The logical conclusion is God rejects your worship - not because of style but because you condemn the worship of His children when they do not use music styles you prefer.

Wrong. I am not the one who inspired Exodus 32 to reveal specifically what the sound of the demonic worship sounded like from a distance. God is the One who has revealed what that music in that account sounded like so that we would understand that music was not what God wanted it to be.

You and others beg the question that God accepts all kinds of music. The Bible never teaches any such thing. You are putting yourself in the place of God by saying that He accepts whatever music people want to offer Him when He has never said such a thing.

 

[Ascetic X]

Wrong. I am not the one who inspired Exodus 32 to reveal specifically what the sound of the demonic worship sounded like from a distance. God is the One who has revealed what that music in that account sounded like so that we would understand that music was not what God wanted it to be.

The music is not being condemned, it is the idol worship that is condemned. The sounds are said to sound like war, which is just descriptive, not accusatory.

You and others beg the question that God accepts all kinds of music. The Bible never teaches any such thing. You are putting yourself in the place of God by saying that He accepts whatever music people want to offer Him when He has never said such a thing.

You have never explained what music styles are favored by God. You just condemn music styles you do not like. You are putting yourself in the place of God by claiming He does not like what you do not like.

 

[JonC]

Wrong. I am not the one who inspired Exodus 32 to reveal specifically what the sound of the demonic worship sounded like from a distance. God is the One who has revealed what that music in that account sounded like so that we would understand that music was not what God wanted it to be.

You and others beg the question that God accepts all kinds of music. The Bible never teaches any such thing. You are putting yourself in the place of God by saying that He accepts whatever music people want to offer Him when He has never said such a thing.

You made assumptions and read into Exodus what was not there.

God did not condemn the music style used by the Isralites to worship the idol. What was condemned was the object of worship (they were worshipping a golden calf).

When a person looks to the Bible to prop up his or her own prejudices, biases, and preferences that person will always find what they are seeking BUT it will be a corruption of God's Word.

You did what Chriatians who are racists have done for a very long time. They did not want Whites to mingle with Blacks so they looked to the separation prescribed to preserve a people (a religious separation) and used that to view their racism as biblical.

You are doing exactly the same thing, not with race but with cultural elements you do not like to mildly persecute other believers.

What you apparently do not want is for your culture, the culture you prefer, to die out. I get that. We all feel that way. But we will all be disappointed if that is where we put our labor rather than doing kingdom work.

In the end you have made your self an enemy to God (on this issue) and have put yourself in His place.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You made assumptions and read into Exodus what was not there.

God did not condemn the music style used by the Isralites to worship the idol. What was condemned was the object of worship (they were worshipping a golden calf).

When a person looks to the Bible to prop up his or her own prejudices, biases, and preferences that person will always find what they are seeking BUT it will be a corruption of God's Word.

You did what Chriatians who are racists have done for a very long time. They did not want Whites to mingle with Blacks so they looked to the separation prescribed to preserve a people (a religious separation) and used that to view their racism as biblical.

You are doing exactly the same thing, not with race but with cultural elements you do not like to mildly persecute other believers.

What you apparently do not want is for your culture, the culture you prefer, to die out. I get that. We all feel that way. But we will all be disappointed if that is where we put our labor rather than doing kingdom work.

In the end you have made your self an enemy to God (on this issue) and have put yourself in His place.

God did not just condemn the object of worship. Had the only problem with the worship been the object of worship, the Spirit would not have revealed for our profit that the people were naked to their shame among their enemies (Exod. 32:25). You refuse to admit what the Spirit has said directly---the people were unrestrained in their wild worship, and such worship has never ever been worship that is acceptable to God.

You also choose to not profit from the Spirit's explicitly telling us that Moses' anger exploded when he saw not just the idol but also the dancing (Exod. 32:19), which again points to the godlessness not just of the object of worship but of the worship itself.

You also have no legitimate explanation for why the Spirit has revealed anything to us at all about the discussion between Joshua and Moses that relates that the specifics of the sound of the worship music heard from afar was a warlike sound that was neither the sound of victory nor the sound of defeat (Exod. 32:17-18). The Bible never teaches that godly worship has ever had such an indistinct, uncertain warlike sound.

It's understandable that believers like you who choose to beg questions about certain points concerning worship and not support their views about those points from the Bible in any way condemn others who actually choose to believe that what the Spirit has specifically revealed matters and must profit us about what we believe about worship, including the music that is used for worship.

 

[JonC]

God did not just condemn the object of worship.

The problem ypu have is that God also did not condemn the style of music they were using.

I understand you do not worship music accompanied with music that has what you consider to be a "rock beat".

And that is fair. I do not like worship music accompanied by traditional hymn music.

But that is our preferences.

All we know of what God "likes" when it comes to worship is what he commanded and approved of in Scripture (loud horns, drums, stringed instruments, dancing in celebratory worship).

But we have a Western ear. To most of us that music would sound chaotic and harsh. I know I do not like to hear it (it is not pleasant to my ears).

I am accustomed to harmony and melody, which is foreign to ancient Near Eastern music.

I am simply not accustomed to monophonic music.

But I am a man, and have no right to say that God rejects traditional worship music because I do not like it. I certainly can't say God rejects music that I find harsh because that is exactly how ancient horns and monophonic songs without harmony and melody sound to me.

But you step over God, place yourself as God, and declare the style of music God accepts even though Scripture does not.


Why do you believe that God accepts the type of music you use in worship?

 

[JonC]

@Scripture More Accurately

To the ear of Eastern people Western music (like traditional hymns) have been described as "emotionless", "robotic", "dead".

Why do you believe that God accepts your worship music?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The problem ypu have is that God also did not condemn the style of music they were using.

I understand you do not worship music accompanied with music that has what you consider to be a "rock beat".

And that is fair. I do not like worship music accompanied by traditional hymn music.

But that is our preferences.

All we know of what God "likes" when it comes to worship is what he commanded and approved of in Scripture (loud horns, drums, stringed instruments, dancing in celebratory worship).

But we have a Western ear. To most of us that music would sound chaotic and harsh. I know I do not like to hear it (it is not pleasant to my ears).

I am accustomed to harmony and melody, which is foreign to ancient Near Eastern music.

I am simply not accustomed to monophonic music.

But I am a man, and have no right to say that God rejects traditional worship music because I do not like it. I certainly can't say God rejects music that I find harsh because that is exactly how ancient horns and monophonic songs without harmony and melody sound to me.

But you step over God, place yourself as God, and declare the style of music God accepts even though Scripture does not.


Why do you believe that God accepts the type of music you use in worship?

You refuse to engage with what the Spirit has actually revealed about the demonic worship of the GCI. You show therefore that you are interested in exalting your own ideas instead of submitting your mind to the wisdom of God.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The problem ypu have is that God also did not condemn the style of music they were using.

I understand you do not worship music accompanied with music that has what you consider to be a "rock beat".

And that is fair. I do not like worship music accompanied by traditional hymn music.

But that is our preferences.

All we know of what God "likes" when it comes to worship is what he commanded and approved of in Scripture (loud horns, drums, stringed instruments, dancing in celebratory worship).

But we have a Western ear. To most of us that music would sound chaotic and harsh. I know I do not like to hear it (it is not pleasant to my ears).

I am accustomed to harmony and melody, which is foreign to ancient Near Eastern music.

I am simply not accustomed to monophonic music.

But I am a man, and have no right to say that God rejects traditional worship music because I do not like it. I certainly can't say God rejects music that I find harsh because that is exactly how ancient horns and monophonic songs without harmony and melody sound to me.

But you step over God, place yourself as God, and declare the style of music God accepts even though Scripture does not.


Why do you believe that God accepts the type of music you use in worship?

You also wrongly assume that I have a "Western" ear. I am a first-generation believer who was a legal immigrant from a "third world" Asian country and now have been a naturalized citizen of the US for many years. I grew up in the US as an unsaved family member of an unsaved Asian family in which I was immersed in both Eastern music and Western music (rock, including heavy metal, pop, etc.) In fact, the traditional Christian conservative music that you claim is merely my preference was music that I had very little exposure to until I became a believer at the age of 29. You are greatly mistaken when you make statements without knowledge about who I am and about my background and views about music.

 

[JonC]

You also wrongly assume that I have a "Western" ear. I am a first-generation believer who was a legal immigrant from a "third world" Asian country and now have been a naturalized citizen of the US for many years. I grew up in the US as an unsaved family member of an unsaved Asian family in which I was immersed in both Eastern music and Western music (rock, including heavy metal, pop, etc.) In fact, the traditional Christian conservative music that you claim is merely my preference was music that I had very little exposure to until I became a believer at the age of 29. You are greatly mistaken when you make statements without knowledge about who I am and about my background and views about music.

I think many of us were not exposed to worship music in any meaningful way until after our conversion.

Again....my question was WHY you believe that God accepts that music (traditional hymns).

This traditional music is very different from ancient Near Eastern music.

I am not sure what part of Asia you grew up in, I assume it was the Near East and you are saying you grew up with Ancient Near Eastern worship music (you enjoyed the ancient harp, ram's horn, ḥatzotzerah, frame drum, timbrels and cymbals).

So you are a child of two worlds (three including Christian).

You understand, then, just how chaotic and harsh the ANE music sounds to the Western ear.

BUT you also understand the complaints of how dead our traditional worship music (and CWM, for that matter) sound to those who are accustomed to worshipping God in a monophonic style absent harmony.


So....again...the question I have asked you is why you believe that God accepts your worship but not Christians who worship with CWM (especially since CWM has more in common with the worship practices of the Hebrews and Apostlic Church).


I am obviously dismissing your claim that the music of the Isralites mirrored or had a kinship to CWM (Christian music with a "rock beat"). The reason is this "rock beat" is a Western comcept foreign to even ANE pagain worship. You are bading it in what YOU think is "wild" or "warlike", witch is foolish.


BUT here is why I ask -

ANE worship is loud, the instruments are designed to be loud. The worship is constructed more like CWM (the leader-led type of singing). The type of music is very much based on emotion.

But traditional hymn music is more subdued, more formulated, less emotional (the lyrics may be emotional but the music itself is typically calming rather than designed to elicit emotion).

Obviously neither traditional hymn music or CWM as types are remotely similar to what was used in ANE worship.

So WHY do you think, if the type of accompanying music determines whether God accepts or rejects the music, that God accepts your worship?


Do you even use stringed instruments, drums, and horns in your worship service???

 

[JonC]

You refuse to engage with what the Spirit has actually revealed about the demonic worship of the GCI. You show therefore that you are interested in exalting your own ideas instead of submitting your mind to the wisdom of God.

This is a false claim (you should apologize).

I am talking strictly about CWM (as a few posts back you said God rejected it based in the type of music).

I am not advocating ANY music style over another.

What does the Bible say to use in worship?

Drums, stringed instruments, cymbals, and horns. But that was, I believe, cultural.

Does your worship service use drums, stringed instruments and horns? Do you refrain from harmony?


As far as the claim goes, linking CWM with ANE pagan worship because of a "rock beat" you think is "warlike"....well....that is just stupid. There is no other way to put it.

ANE pagan worship sounded like ANE worship. It was cultural. Mormon hymns sound like Christian hymns. It is not the style but the worship.


Basing God's acceptance or rejection of a Christian's worship on cultural aspects of the accompanying music is essentially witchcraft. You believe one can control God's approval or rejection by differing music styles.


Here is my opinion - you hold onto racist dogma (you hold on to racist propaganda even as the racist aspects fell aside). You hold a religion along with Christianity that is akin to witchcraft. You play God, determining that God accepts your worship although the style is foreign to the music of the Bible and that He rejects music that you do not like.

You have become the accuser of the brethren.


Now...as far as your worship, if it is in spirit and truth, I believe God accepts it even though you may not use drums, cymbals, horns and stringed instruments. The only hesitation I have is the log in your eye as you accuse God's children.