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The Dirty Truth About Honoraria
- Thread starter OLD SARGE
- Start date
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
That is an interesting read.
There is a lot to take in here.
1. The one speaker who asked for what is a months salary for some preachers for a week of work (believe me, I know it amounts to more than a week of work)
2. An organization that values property more than people.
In other examples…
1. Small congregations- 200?
That is a big small congregation.
2. If you can factor $1 per ear ($2per person) there are many congregations that you would still not pass the $100 mark.
Anyone have solutions to offer with hard suggestions instead of open ended suggestive advice?
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
I’m of the opinion that you should be paying your speakers like you would pay your own speakers.
Considering that your guest is not your church administrator, doesn’t have the follow-up to do for a Sunday meeting, $100 per day plus traveling expenses means that you are paying your speakers the equivalent of $26000 per year based on a five day week.
Compare that to your church budget and consider your speaker.
Are they employed by their home church or are they relying solely upon their speaking engagement?
If you occupy a week of their time you are looking at 500 per week plus expenses if this is their sole source of income. (Assuming that you are paying your own pastor the same amount.)
Your speaker must also figure their medical expenses from this number also.
From the perspective of the church, when in doubt, ask the speaker what he requires. Better to avoid the situation than create a scenario of hard feelings.
From the perspective of the speaker, consider your calling. Some people will be concerned about your needs more than others. Paul had only one church concerned with his needs at one point.
At no point is it healthy for either party to decide how the other should handle their own finances. If an agreement cannot be reached, it is better not to go forward when money is a problem.
Considering that your guest is not your church administrator, doesn’t have the follow-up to do for a Sunday meeting, $100 per day plus traveling expenses means that you are paying your speakers the equivalent of $26000 per year based on a five day week.
Compare that to your church budget and consider your speaker.
Are they employed by their home church or are they relying solely upon their speaking engagement?
If you occupy a week of their time you are looking at 500 per week plus expenses if this is their sole source of income. (Assuming that you are paying your own pastor the same amount.)
Your speaker must also figure their medical expenses from this number also.
From the perspective of the church, when in doubt, ask the speaker what he requires. Better to avoid the situation than create a scenario of hard feelings.
From the perspective of the speaker, consider your calling. Some people will be concerned about your needs more than others. Paul had only one church concerned with his needs at one point.
At no point is it healthy for either party to decide how the other should handle their own finances. If an agreement cannot be reached, it is better not to go forward when money is a problem.
I did one of those salary calculators online and it said that with me experience and such I should charge $1700 an hour. If it is local, I am happy with a Diet Dr. Pepper and a Moon pie.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
atpollard
Well-Known Member
The first time I was asked to speak at a Church, I was honored, but the idea of an ‘Honoraria’ caught me completely by surprise. I had never even considered the possibility that a Church would pay me to speak there. To be fair, that was not my vocation … I supported my family working as an Architect and Civil Engineer. In my mind, anything I did at a Church was something that I did for God (It just felt WRONG for people to pay me for it.)
My pastor had outside work that supported him (beyond his work as an Ordained Pastor). God had gifted him with a voice that allowed him to sing professionally (he has performed at the White House for 5 different US presidents and performed for heads of state around world). He advised me that I had a responsibility to expect and accept an honoraria. First, the Church deserved an opportunity to support those that ministered to them and it was selfish pride to steal from them the opportunity to obey what God had commanded. Second, there were people that made their living from this and it was wrong for me to create a climate in which they might be expected to work without pay. His third point to me was that IF I genuinely did not need the money and it bothered me to accept it, then AFTER I was paid, there was nothing that prevented me from returning it in the collection plate as an anonymous offering.
His advice has served me well.
My pastor had outside work that supported him (beyond his work as an Ordained Pastor). God had gifted him with a voice that allowed him to sing professionally (he has performed at the White House for 5 different US presidents and performed for heads of state around world). He advised me that I had a responsibility to expect and accept an honoraria. First, the Church deserved an opportunity to support those that ministered to them and it was selfish pride to steal from them the opportunity to obey what God had commanded. Second, there were people that made their living from this and it was wrong for me to create a climate in which they might be expected to work without pay. His third point to me was that IF I genuinely did not need the money and it bothered me to accept it, then AFTER I was paid, there was nothing that prevented me from returning it in the collection plate as an anonymous offering.
His advice has served me well.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
It does in a way. I don’t feel as bad for him putting all that work in because he gets a month of Sundays out of a week of work. But that doesn’t change the fact that he has to travel and should be paid for the work that he does. It affects my sympathy. He still needs to eat. And live the same number of days between Sundays as everyone else.
I am always impressed with the speaker who busies himself with the other work in the church while he is there. The best speakers in my experience are the ones whose services in the church are not ended at the same time as the service. The speaker who does visits with the pastor, lends a hand with the needs of the property where the church is, and just makes himself available is the one who I see as irreplaceable by cassette tape in the mail, or facebook live if you prefer. You know, more than a Sunday go to meetin’ Christian.
There are some speakers who could save time and money by sending recordings to be played in their absence. But that is not really a suggestion.
I fully agree about travel - that is seperate from preparation.
valeriegaha
New Member
There is no such thing as honorarium in the bible.. God is a rewarder of those who seek diligently.. just a give your guest preacher any token of appreciation for been a blessing to your congregation.. not this thing called honorarium..
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the “you’re #1” sticker. It makes me feel better about not being able to feed my family.
Forget about the laborer being worthy of his hire.
Forget about not muzzling the ox that treads out the corn. That was clearly not meant for people. Paul must have been mistaken.
1 Corinthians 9:9-10
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
Here is an inedible trophy. A token of our appreciation for being a great conference speaker. We pride ourselves that nobody gives out trophies for conference speakers bigger than ours. Send a picture of it with your power bill next month and they’ll power your home for free for your lifetime!!
Yeah, just give them a token gift. It will all work out.
(Loaded with sarcasm intended to provoke thought, for anyone who is not sure of my intentions)
Maybe a memento kind of gift is not what you meant, but it is what you said and how it appears.
Armchair Apologist
Active Member
I'd say that a man's time ought to be worth something.
They say that in order to properly prepare for a 45-minute sermon, it takes about around 40-45 hours of study and preparation. What would be a good "Hourly Rate" for this person's time? What is the hourly rate for someone to do diagnostics and repair on your automobile?
What about the monetery investment this preacher likely made in order to attend a good Seminary and become competent in the matters of theology and doctrine? What of the lost wages that he could have made had he not spent all that time learning languages, hermeneutics, and so forth? Poor preacher did all this just so you could nit-pick and criticize the sermon afterwards???
One should never go into the ministry in order to become financially well off. They should not be in it for the money at all but those who are benefiting from his labor ought to make contribution to his temporal needs!
If you bring in a speaker, you should cover his travel expenses, meals, and lodging. On top of all this, you should compensate him based upon the "added value" his time and efforts are bringing to you and your congregation.
They say that in order to properly prepare for a 45-minute sermon, it takes about around 40-45 hours of study and preparation. What would be a good "Hourly Rate" for this person's time? What is the hourly rate for someone to do diagnostics and repair on your automobile?
What about the monetery investment this preacher likely made in order to attend a good Seminary and become competent in the matters of theology and doctrine? What of the lost wages that he could have made had he not spent all that time learning languages, hermeneutics, and so forth? Poor preacher did all this just so you could nit-pick and criticize the sermon afterwards???
One should never go into the ministry in order to become financially well off. They should not be in it for the money at all but those who are benefiting from his labor ought to make contribution to his temporal needs!
If you bring in a speaker, you should cover his travel expenses, meals, and lodging. On top of all this, you should compensate him based upon the "added value" his time and efforts are bringing to you and your congregation.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I am split here.
We do not serve God for compensation. The ministry should not be looked at the sane way we would view a secular career.
At the same time the minister should expect the church to help meet his needs. Perhaps he can only work a part time job due to the time needed to prepare for a sermons and meet the needs of a congregation. He trusts in God to provide funds to meet what his part time job cannot.
I do not like the idea "my time is worth such and such" (like the 2k in the article). That is a business, not a ministry.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Where I have mixed feelings is the question of what should a pastor's salary be when the church can afford it. Clearly the Pastor should not be struggling to feed his family in a large, affluent congregation that can afford to support him. However, is it proper for the pastor to earn in the top 20% of the congregation? The top 10%? The top 2%?
I struggled with that question.
At what point are we "muzzling the ox" and at what point is the "Shepherd" too far removed from the real life issues of "the flock"?
Armchair Apologist
Active Member
I do agree here.
The "my time is worth something" remark was not made from the Pastor's POV but from that of a Deacon (of which I happen to be right now) standing up for his pastor and speaking on his behalf! We ought to be respectful of a man's time.
The hard part for me to swallow is the ministry becoming a profession (like a lawyer, a dentist).
I guess there has to be a balance. I just am not sure how that looks.
I attended a church that had a $5 million annual budget. Almost half was salaries. Almost half was infrastructure (building, maintenance, utilities). About 10% went to the ministry (outside of salaries). Members could use the church for events, like weddings and group studies....for a fee.
That was extreme.
Then you have pastors who can barely support their families, or who have to leave the ministry.
I believe the ministry needs to be "blue collar". Not necessarily that one has to depend on a secular job (but a part-time job is not a bad idea). But what I see often is the idea "I earned a doctorate and expect my salary to reflect my status" type of thinking.
Armchair Apologist
Active Member
Calvary Chapel actually follows such a model. In addition to their theological and pastoral training, it is required of those training for the ministry either to have or to acquire some sort of trade in which to support themselves.
My thoughts is if you have a doctorate or whatever and feel as if you should be treated as such, find a college or seminary that will bring you on their staff. Teach in the Seminary and pastor on the side (or vice versa).