Double Trouble

[Van]

One of the chronic problems with gaining an accurate understanding of God's word, based on reading and even studying an English Translation is dealing with original language words with two or more meanings. Sometimes the translators choose the correct contextual meaning, but sometimes they choose the wrong one, or more often they choose an ambiguous word that could convey more than one meaning.

I have posted concerning words like sanctify (make holy or set apart) and baptism (water or spiritual) in prior threads. Today I wish to consider the concept of "death." When we see references to "death" we must ask ourselves, "does this refer to physical death, spiritual death or both?

First we must deal with the concept, end of existence, such as the end of physical life, or separation from God due to unholiness. When we were "dead in our trespasses" we were physically alive, but spiritually dead, meaning separated from God.

Our next question deals with just when did "death" enter mankind?

Romans 5:12 NASB
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned—​

Here we see that when Adam volitionally sinned, death entered mankind. Since Adam and Eve did not physically die that day, they died "spiritually." Meaning they were separated from God, illustrated by being kicked out of the Garden of Eden, and prevented from ever reentering of their own accord. Paul also writes that as a result of Adam's sin, all of humanity were "made sinners." (Romans 5:19)

But that still leaves us pondering when did physical death enter the world. Some claim physical death did not beginning in the world (referring to all life forms) until after Adam sinned. I believe that is a mistaken view.

If we look at the Genesis 1 account we see plants and animals were created to procreate "after their kind." There would be no need unless either mortality existed or was anticipated. In Genesis 1:11, on day 3 of creation, plants were created with the ability to re-create their kind, through their "seed."

In Genesis 1:22 we that animal life were created with the ability to multiply before Adam had sinned.

Lastly let us consider the "Second Death" which results in the destruction of not only the body but also the soul in Gehenna.

 

[Stopgap]

I understand Adam's sin as the reason why mankind experiences physical death. While one can make the case for spiritual death as the intended consequence, I do believe that God's promise that he would surely die if he ate from the tree came to fruition after 930 years, as recorded in Genesis 5:5.

As a side note, I believe the NASB does the best job overall at translating Greek words consistently, but of course it is not perfect and should be subject to further examination when the need arises.

 

[Van]

I understand Adam's sin as the reason why mankind experiences physical death. While one can make the case for spiritual death as the intended consequence, I do believe that God's promise that he would surely die if he ate from the tree came to fruition after 930 years, as recorded in Genesis 5:5.

As a side note, I believe the NASB does the best job overall at translating Greek words consistently, but of course it is not perfect and should be subject to further examination when the need arises.

I think your view is correct. As long as Adam was located within the Garden, in communion with God, we have no solid evidence he would die. However, we do have have solid evidence God anticipated his fall and physical death, because he was created (once given Eve) with the capacity to procreate. Something those with everlasting life do not do.

Certainly physical death existed before the fall, as Adam ate plants. Similarly, animal life had the capacity to procreate, thus probably experienced death. But again, this is a reasonable assumption, but NOT clearly taught in scripture.

But God provided plants that were "good for food" and livestock, animals used for feed such as sheep.

 

[Stopgap]

My old pastor was a math and science teacher and an advocate of old-earth creation and essentially proposed that there was a large gap of time between Genesis 2 and 3. He believed that Adam and Eve lived in the garden in an immortal, sinless state for thousands of years before eating from the tree, after which inevitably resulted in Adam's physical death 930 years later.

 

[Aaron]

I think your view is correct. As long as Adam was located within the Garden, in communion with God, we have no solid evidence he would die. However, we do have have solid evidence God anticipated his fall and physical death, because he was created (once given Eve) with the capacity to procreate. Something those with everlasting life do not do.

Certainly physical death existed before the fall, as Adam ate plants. Similarly, animal life had the capacity to procreate, thus probably experienced death. But again, this is a reasonable assumption, but NOT clearly taught in scripture.

But God provided plants that were "good for food" and livestock, animals used for feed such as sheep.

You're well on your way to Reformed thinking, Van of the Ample Fonts. Sin and death, two sides of the same coin, neither one created, were yet part of God's will for the creation of the earth. The earth was created for the Cross.

 

[Ascetic X]

I understand Adam's sin as the reason why mankind experiences physical death. While one can make the case for spiritual death as the intended consequence, I do believe that God's promise that he would surely die if he ate from the tree came to fruition after 930 years, as recorded in Genesis 5:5.

Completely wrong and unbiblical.

God said that the day you eat thereof, not hundreds of years later, thou shalt surely die.

Adam and Eve did die spiritually the day they sinned.

Genesis 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[Stopgap]

God said that the day you eat thereof, not hundreds of years later, thou shalt surely die.

The day on which he was to eat the fruit resulted in his physical death, but that doesn't necessitate that his physical death would occur on that same day.

 

[Van]

My old pastor was a math and science teacher and an advocate of old-earth creation and essentially proposed that there was a large gap of time between Genesis 2 and 3. He believed that Adam and Eve lived in the garden in an immortal, sinless state for thousands of years before eating from the tree, after which inevitably resulted in Adam's physical death 930 years later.

I am NOT either a YEC or an OEC, I am of the "I do not know" faction in accordance with Job 38.

 

[Van]

You're well on your way to Reformed thinking, Van of the Ample Fonts. Sin and death, two sides of the same coin, neither one created, were yet part of God's will for the creation of the earth. The earth was created for the Cross.

Ambiguity is not a friend of truth. I use "ample fonts" because my vision is poor. Sin and Spiritual death are two sides of the same coin. The claim sin was not created by God is disingenuous. God created humanity with the capacity to sin, so sin was indirectly created by God. Additionally God anticipated the fall of humanity, because He chose Logos, God the Son, to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. God created our sometimes harsh environment for His purpose, such that some would seek Him as their refuge. The earth, referring to our home planet was created long before Christ died on the cross. See Genesis 1.

 

[Van]

Completely wrong and unbiblical.

God said that the day you eat thereof, not hundreds of years later, thou shalt surely die.

Adam and Eve did die spiritually the day they sinned.

Genesis 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Idiotic nonsense. Adam did spiritually die on the day he volitionally sinned, but he did not physically die until years later.

First you claim my view is wrong, then you agree with my view. As I said, idiotic nonsense.

"Here we see that when Adam volitionally sinned, death entered mankind. Since Adam and Eve did not physically die that day, they died "spiritually." "​

​

 

[Aaron]

I use "ample fonts" because my vision is poor.

Maybe change your own display settings instead of the font size in the app? Just a thought.

 

[Ascetic X]

Idiotic nonsense. Adam did spiritually die on the day he volitionally sinned, but he did not physically die until years later.

First you claim my view is wrong, then you agree with my view. As I said, idiotic nonsense.

​

"Here we see that when Adam volitionally sinned, death entered mankind. Since Adam and Eve did not physically die that day, they died "spiritually." "​

​

You are calling scripture idiotic nonsense?

I was not even responding to you. My comment was addressed to Stopgap.

I see no contradiction between what I said and what you said.

Perhaps you meant to post your comment to someone else.

Genesis 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[Van]

Maybe change your own display settings instead of the font size in the app? Just a thought.

Yet another deflection post, from someone seemingly unable to address the topic.

 

[Van]

You are calling scripture idiotic nonsense?

I was not even responding to you. My comment was addressed to Stopgap.

I see no contradiction between what I said and what you said.

Perhaps you meant to post your comment to someone else.

Genesis 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

My bad, I thought mistakenly that your post was addressing the OP. My mistake! My error. My huge blunder.

 

[Stopgap]

Maybe change your own display settings instead of the font size in the app? Just a thought.

Why in the world would the size of a font be so bothersome to a person?

 

[Aaron]

My mistake! My error. My huge blunder.

No disagreement there!

 

[Aaron]

Why in the world would the size of a font be so bothersome to a person?

I don't know. Why?

 

[Stopgap]

I don't know. Why?

Well, now you have me stumped, A-A-Ron!

The more you post, the more it reminds me of a Key & Peele sketch comedy.

I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it just a little bit.