Atonement (Not PSA)

[atpollard]

Lol.... true. I kinda jumped towards the end (figured nobody was reading). But I will pick back up.

Not to derail anything, but just to offer input on why I am reading it and what I am looking for.

I cannot evaluate an idea until you have stated it, then like a Berean, I can take what you say back to Scripture and evaluate how I feel about your observation on that scripture.

“I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." - Genesis 12:3 [NKJV]

Let me offer a specific example for an illustration. You discussed the verse above in relation to the Atonement. I associated that promise of God with Abraham. By extension, I had seen its application to “Jews” and “Christians” (the people of God). I had seen Abraham as a typology foreshadowing Jesus (as the Father of faith).

I had never applied that particular verse/promise of God to the ATONEMENT as a foreshadow of Jesus and redemption until you pointed out that possibility by drawing attention to that verse and Atonement.

Pondering that verse as a possible “mechanism” within the Atonement immediately shed new light on other verses:

John 3:18 [NKJV] "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
[This expresses the same Atonement idea of “blessing” (not judged) those that “bless” (believe) Jesus Christ and “cursing” (already judged) those that “curse” (not believe) Jesus Christ, does it not?]

Matthew 23:37-39 [NKJV] "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"
[Again, I can see the same Atonement idea repeated … centered on “blessing” or “cursing” Jesus Christ … the rejection of those that “curse” the Christ, just like the promise to Abraham in Genesis 12.]

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

JonC

This has been one of the most thoughtful and engaging conversations on Scripture I’ve had in a very long time. Thank you for that.

~Tony

 

[JonC]

Not to derail anything, but just to offer input on why I am reading it and what I am looking for.

I cannot evaluate an idea until you have stated it, then like a Berean, I can take what you say back to Scripture and evaluate how I feel about your observation on that scripture.

“I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." - Genesis 12:3 [NKJV]

Let me offer a specific example for an illustration. You discussed the verse above in relation to the Atonement. I associated that promise of God with Abraham. By extension, I had seen its application to “Jews” and “Christians” (the people of God). I had seen Abraham as a typology foreshadowing Jesus (as the Father of faith).

I had never applied that particular verse/promise of God to the ATONEMENT as a foreshadow of Jesus and redemption until you pointed out that possibility by drawing attention to that verse and Atonement.

Pondering that verse as a possible “mechanism” within the Atonement immediately shed new light on other verses:

John 3:18 [NKJV] "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
[This expresses the same Atonement idea of “blessing” (not judged) those that “bless” (believe) Jesus Christ and “cursing” (already judged) those that “curse” (not believe) Jesus Christ, does it not?]

Matthew 23:37-39 [NKJV] "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"
[Again, I can see the same Atonement idea repeated … centered on “blessing” or “cursing” Jesus Christ … the rejection of those that “curse” the Christ, just like the promise to Abraham in Genesis 12.]

Well....now you expect me to express ideas??!!

This is a major part of why I view the promises God made to Abraham to be ultimately to Christ:

"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as one would in referring to many, but rather as in referring to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ." (Galatians 3:16).


I can see a lot of things that point to the Atonement in the Old Testament. Some of these things are probably just what I am seeing rather than what is actually there. It is too easy when you know the end of the story to find clues in the beginning that may not exist.

But going forward I will try to express more succinct ideas. I was Bob Dylaning (freewheeling) it by starting in creation. But now that's out of my system.

 

[JonC]

JonC

This has been one of the most thoughtful and engaging conversations on Scripture I’ve had in a very long time. Thank you for that.

~Tony

Thank you. I have enjoyed it as well. I am not one to hold my beliefs emotionally (it does not bother me when somebody challenges my beliefs because I have been wrong before... I was a Calvinist, after all ).

I believe it is good to discuss our views with others who hold different positions. It is an opportunity to understand another view and to reevaluate my own.

I appreciate both the kindness in your posting and the honest, straightforward nature of your post.

 

[37818]

Isaiah 53:6, . . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

A penal subscription.

 

[atpollard]

Isaiah 53:6, . . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

A penal subscription.

My understanding of theological terms is sometimes lacking, so could you help someone with a degree in Architecture and no training in Hebrew or Greek understand something.

”We all like sheep have gone astray” = Everyone sins (does wrong in thought or actions) … right?

”the LORD has laid on him” = God (presumably the Father) has placed on Jesus (the Son) … right?

”the iniquity” = I could use some clarification with the EXACT meaning of this word. I think it means “guilt”. Is that right?

”of us all” = of every person (presumably just the saved, but let’s save the question of “limited” vs “general” atonement for another day).

”A penal substitution” = the “penal” stands for PENALTY, not GUILT, right?
Are GUILT and PENALTY the same thing?
Which (guilt or penalty) was Jesus the “Substitution” for?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Lol.... true. I kinda jumped towards the end (figured nobody was reading). But I will pick back up.

THE LEVITICAL SACRIFICE SYSTEM

The Law codified the existing sacrifices but also made provision for sins to be addressed.

BURNT OFFERINGS – People worshipped God by making burnt offerings (herd animals and birds). They offered the animals at the doorway of the tent of meeting, putting their hand on the head of the offering that it may be accepted as an atonement on his behalf. He killed the animal and the priests offered up the blood by sprinkling it on the alter that is at the doorway of the tent of meeting. Then he burned the offering. This was a “soothing aroma to the Lord”. I believe that the “soothing aroma to the Lord” was not the literal smell of burning flesh but instead the obedience of the people in worship.

PEACE OFFERINGS – The people made peace offerings in a similar fashion. They killed the animal outside of the tent and the priests sprinkled the blood around the altar.

I am not going to discuss grain offerings and first fruit offerings as I do not believe they are pertinent to this discussion. But they were offerings of worship to God.

SIN OFFERING – If a person sins unintentionally then they offered a sin offering. They brought the animal to the doorway of the tent and killed the animal. The priest took some of the blood and sprinkled the veil of the sanctuary seven times. The priest also applied the blood to the horns of the alter and poured all of the remaining blood at the base of the alter.

GUILT OFFERING – The people also made guilt offerings. This type of offering was to cleans the person of guilt. The person was to confess that in which he has sinned. He then brought the guilt offering so that the priest could make atonement on behalf for his sin. Atonement in this case is not by the shedding of blood (although the shedding of blood is certainly necessary) but by the priest applying the blood to the altar on behalf of the person.

THE LAW OF ATONEMENT

The priest would prepare a sin offering for himself. This was to make atonement for himself and his household. He took two goats and cast lots. The first was for the Lord and the other for Azael (the “scapegoat”). The goat for the Lord was offered as a sin offering. The priest would take the blood of the goat and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat seven times. He would make atonement for the holy place itself with the blood of the animal. It was the blood of the animals that was taken into the tabernacle to make atonement (the bodies were taken outside the camp and burned).

The scapegoat was presented alive, to make atonement up it, and it was sent into the wilderness. The priest would confess the sins of the people and the goat would (symbolically) take their sins away to a solidary place. The people would drive the goat out and guard against its return.

“For the life of the flesh is in the blood and I [God] have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.” (Lev 17:11).

I remember seeing this but hadn't had time to respond.

I think the best way to summarize (at the risk of oversimplifying) is that each of these actually mean something in the same exact manner as the Lord's Supper means something to us in our current day and age. (think on that for a moment here)

None of this is for God's benefit, it is strictly for our benefit. These all point to something and are all meant to teach us something, to remind us of something. The temple sacrifices illustrate what Christ would come to do at the appointed time but each of these had other specific meaning as well which would be beneficial to study out and understand.

The Lord's Supper points back to Christ's death and forward to his return when we will stand before him at the bema seat. Therefore, it should be a time of solemn examination which once again, is for our benefit alone and we should do so with a right understanding as well as the right mindset.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

You are correct that blood is life. Scripture says so. But the life is poured out. The blood is shed. The life is taken. That is the point of sacrifice. The life given makes atonement for the life guilty. That is the entire structure of the sacrificial system.

I was just thinking of this - yes, blood is life as Leviticus says that "the life of the flesh is in the blood" but the life of the flesh is in the blood so long as it is flowing through the arteries and veins and serving its intended purpose!

Blood that is being poured out, spilt, and sprinkled indicates a death has taken place and it is here that blood is set forth as an atoning sacrifice.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

I was just thinking of this - yes, blood is life as Leviticus says that "the life of the flesh is in the blood" but the life of the flesh is in the blood so long as it is flowing through the arteries and veins and serving its intended purpose!

Blood that is being poured out, spilt, and sprinkled indicates a death has taken place and it is here that blood is set forth as an atoning sacrifice.

Yes, exactly. The life of the flesh is in the blood, but only while that blood is moving through the body and doing what God designed it to do. Once the blood is poured out, spilt, or sprinkled, it is no longer the life of a living creature. It is the witness that a death has taken place. And it is in that poured‑out state that God sets blood before us as the sign and substance of atonement.