Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Propitiation and imputation are not mutually exclusive and they are exactly how God can be satisfied with the atonement provided for all and still judge some to be in their sin and some to be forgiven.
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Propitiation
- Thread starter Anthony Pritchard
- Start date
Jesus is not a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but one has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. Since we have flesh and blood, he too shared in our humanity (he came in the likeness of sinful flesh; was made sin for us; shared in our infirmity; was the Son of Man) so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free man who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
This is the Cross. God reconciling mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, not counting sin against man.
But freeing from the bondage of sin and death (the power of Satan) is only one part, for is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.
God set forth His Son as a Propitiation through His blood (His blood cleanses from all unrighteousness, in Him there is no condemnation and we escape the wrath to come) to be received by faith. The "last Adam" became a life giving Spirit. He is the Life. The guilty man will perish, and we need to die to sin (the guilty man in us must die and be born of the Spirit (although we die yet shall we live). We must put to death the flesh, die with Christ so that we will live in Him.
A lack of faith in man, man not receiving this propitiation by faith, does not nullify the fact the Propitiation has been set forth to be received by faith.
This is the Cross. God reconciling mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, not counting sin against man.
But freeing from the bondage of sin and death (the power of Satan) is only one part, for is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.
God set forth His Son as a Propitiation through His blood (His blood cleanses from all unrighteousness, in Him there is no condemnation and we escape the wrath to come) to be received by faith. The "last Adam" became a life giving Spirit. He is the Life. The guilty man will perish, and we need to die to sin (the guilty man in us must die and be born of the Spirit (although we die yet shall we live). We must put to death the flesh, die with Christ so that we will live in Him.
A lack of faith in man, man not receiving this propitiation by faith, does not nullify the fact the Propitiation has been set forth to be received by faith.
This is quite wrong. If you would take the trouble to read my posts before replying to them, you would discover that what I am suggesting is that Christ is not the propitiation for all the people in the world. Do you understand the difference?
Your quotation of me excluded some important points, so here is my post again. You will note that I did not mention 'imputation.' I don't see therefore that you have answered the points that I made.
My post was as follows:
I don't follow your logic.
Is God the Father propitiated in respect of 'the whole world' by the shed blood of Christ? If so, and you take the view that 'world' means all the people in the world, I don't see how Christ is the propitiation only for those who believe, and I don't understand how propitiation becomes provision. If some are not saved, then God has not been propitiated and is still angry with them It is perhaps worth mentioning that the words 'believe' or 'belief' do not appear in 1 John 2:2, any more than the words 'The sins of' do. You have to write them in.
The fact is that the Lord Jesus was given a vast number of people to redeem by the Father, and He was commanded not to lose even one (John 6:39 etc.). This He has done, and the Father is propitiated in respect of all those people, which is why we see them at the Last Day standing before the throne of God, clothed in white and crying out, "salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb."
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I did read your post but it seems you did not read mine.
What I said
"You have suggested that 1Jn 2:2 does not support the view that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world"
Your reply
"I am suggesting is that Christ is not the propitiation for all the people in the world"
What is the difference Martin?
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
I read your post before. It is still there I’m quite sure. And it is linked for anyone who wants to know what it says.
I won’t repost the same answer because you know where it is and I haven’t changed it.
The text says that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. What we have to decide is what it means that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. I have tried to show that it cannot mean that He is the propitiation for all the peaple in the whole world unless one takes the view that all the people in the whole world are saved.
So what we now have to decide is what the text actually means. The word kosmos does not usually mean 'everyone.' Its natual meaning is 'world.' For example, look at Acts 17:24. "God who made the world and everything in it....' Here, and in many other places, kosmos means 'Planet Earth.' Elsewhere, as I have shown, it means the world as it lies under Satan. It has a whole variety of meanings, and it is the job of the exegete to explain what the true meaning is. I will come to that in due course, but I have a great pile of things to do over the next few days so it won't be that quickly.
Oops, the Reformed translators of the vaunted Geneva Bible didn't get MM's memo about 'adding gratuitously!'? And he is the reconciliation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJB: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
even John MacArthur's 'Legacy Standard Bible' thought it necessary to 'add' [gratuitously, MM?] a couple words ["those of"]: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
But this is not an accurate statement. You’re trying to look only at propitiation. It is not the only word involved. Propitiation means that God is satisfied with Jesus. Those who trust Jesus are not imputed iniquity, they are imputed righteousness.
But if you only want to look at propitiation and no other doctrines, then do it without discussing sin, man, God, or any other doctrine. Since it is obvious that you cannot, stop trying to look at propitiation as if imputation is an unrelated doctrine.
They did get the message. They put 'the sins of'in brackets to show that the words don't exist in any ancient manuscipt
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Actually Martin you have missed the intent of that verse.
By reading 1Jn 2:1-2 and letting the words inform you rather than reading your view into the text it will clear up your confusion.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation G2434 for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Propitiation is a noun in this verse and as such it is telling us what Christ is. He is the only means of appeasing God the Father.
Is there any other means by which man can be saved? Jesus says there is not in Jn 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
John is telling us in 1Jn 2:2 there is not. He is telling us that Christ is the only means for those that believe and the only means by which anyone {the whole world} can be saved.
We see this again in 1Jn_4:10 where John is writing to believers and pointing out that Christ is the only means by which their sins were covered.
As you correctly said the word "world" can mean different things. But it seems you have ignored the context and instead have jumped to other verses to find support for your understanding of the word.
Christ being the propitiation for the whole world does not mean that all will be saved. That is something that you are reading into the text. What it does means is that all can be saved through faith in Him.
I think you'll find it is an accurate statement; or if it isn't, you haven't shown why not. I'm just looking at this verse. Propitiation means, not that God is satisfied with Jesus - He was always that (Matt. 3:17)! - but that He is satisfied with the the propitiation accomplished by the Lord Jesus on the cross; He is propitiated by it, and if our Lord is the propitiation for all the people in the whole world, then God is propitiated in respect of everyone who ever lived.
But the text doesn't say that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for all the people in the world, does it?
Imputation does not appear in 1 John 2:2, but if you want to try and show how it fits, be my guest
But I'm finding is increasingly amusing to see all the people who keep saying that they "Just believe the words" desperately trying to add words to the text to protect their shibboleths and doctrinal sacred cows.