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The Lords Prayer
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
No. Probably because we see that Jesus gave it as a pattern for prayer, rather than a form of words to be repeated parrot-fashion. I remember, having been brought up to "go to church", i.e. the Anglican parish church, that the Lord's Prayer was said twice during every service, once with the words, "For Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever," and once without.
KenH
Well-Known Member
What people commonly call "The Lord's Prayer" is, as David Lamb said, a model prayer or a pattern prayer. And, no we do not recite this model prayer at each worship service.
The actual Lord's prayer is John chapter 17. And, no we do not recite all 26 verses at each worship service. The men who lead prayer construct their own.
Armchair Apologist
Active Member
I don't believe I have every heard the "Lord's Prayer" recited in a Baptist Church. Seems that such would be part of a more "liturgical high-church" style of service. Perhaps there are some among the Reformed Baptists who may do so? Perhaps the Presbys may as well?
37818
Well-Known Member
Prayer under the Law, Mark 11:25, And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Versus under the New Covenant.
Hebrews 8:12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Versus under the New Covenant.
Hebrews 8:12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
"Daily bread" sounds like what the faithful remnant of Israel who enter the earthly kingdom would expect.
The forgiveness of trespasses sounds like what Israel expected.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The disciples prayer (Lord, teach us to pray) sounds like it is consistent with the gospel of the kingdom for the nation of Israel.
Paul told the Thessalonians that they should not eat if they do not work. Paul told the Ephesians that they were sealed by the Holy Spirit Paul told to Colossians they had been translated into the kingdom. (since it is past tense, one presumes heavenly kingdom).
If one takes a mid acts dispensational view, it would seem that what is called the Lord's prayer was not intended for those who would be placed into the body of Christ.
The forgiveness of trespasses sounds like what Israel expected.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The disciples prayer (Lord, teach us to pray) sounds like it is consistent with the gospel of the kingdom for the nation of Israel.
Paul told the Thessalonians that they should not eat if they do not work. Paul told the Ephesians that they were sealed by the Holy Spirit Paul told to Colossians they had been translated into the kingdom. (since it is past tense, one presumes heavenly kingdom).
If one takes a mid acts dispensational view, it would seem that what is called the Lord's prayer was not intended for those who would be placed into the body of Christ.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Praying to God for one's daily bread, which I take to mean daily needs, is surely not only for the remnant of Israel.
Forgiveness is something every sinner needs, not only Israelite sinners.
The disciples were Jewish, but asking the Lord to teach them to pray was not specifically Jewish. Why cannot I, a Gentile Christian, seek God's help in prayer?
I don't know what "a mid acts dispensational view" is (I'm not a dispensationalist), but I see no reason at all why all Christians cannot use the pattern prayer.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Certainly. God doesn't have a special way of dealing with Christians who are Israelites by birth, requiring them, but not Christians who are Gentiles, to confess their sins.
Certainly. God doesn't have a special way of dealing with Christians who are Israelites by birth, requiring them, but not Christians who are Gentiles, to confess their sins.
Those of Israel who are saved by the grace gospel today are indeed part of the body of Christ. My question was that those to whom 1 John was written and Jesus taught to pray were required to obtain forgiveness through confession. This is not a requirement of those in the body of Christ.
Those of Israel who are saved by the grace gospel today are indeed part of the body of Christ. My question was that those to whom 1 John was written and Jesus taught to pray were required to obtain forgiveness through confession. This is not a requirement of those in the body of Christ.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
When I was a teenager, I attended a Mennonite church, where I got baptized. I was invited to act as a pastor and preach a sermon of my own one Sunday morning. It was their style to conclude the service with reciting the Lord’s Prayer, but I skipped it, because in my youthful zeal, I considered doing that to be vain repetition.
I am of a totally different opinion now.
I recite the Lord’s Prayer frequently in my private prayer life. These are the devout words from our Savior, which makes them very special. I believe it honors Christ when it is recited privately or publicly in a church service.
I affirm that it is to be called the Lord’s Prayer, because it is the prayer that Jesus provided as a model for His disciples.
I would call John 17 the Lord’s Supplication to differentiate it from the prayer in Matthew 6:9-13.
To say we don’t have to forgive others to be forgiven, we just need to confess our sins, is absurd. Requesting forgiveness as we forgive others is pious policy that all should abide by. And yes, we do need to confess our sins as they occur, and not just assume they are automatically forgiven, which is a callous irreverent attitude.
I am of a totally different opinion now.
I recite the Lord’s Prayer frequently in my private prayer life. These are the devout words from our Savior, which makes them very special. I believe it honors Christ when it is recited privately or publicly in a church service.
I affirm that it is to be called the Lord’s Prayer, because it is the prayer that Jesus provided as a model for His disciples.
I would call John 17 the Lord’s Supplication to differentiate it from the prayer in Matthew 6:9-13.
To say we don’t have to forgive others to be forgiven, we just need to confess our sins, is absurd. Requesting forgiveness as we forgive others is pious policy that all should abide by. And yes, we do need to confess our sins as they occur, and not just assume they are automatically forgiven, which is a callous irreverent attitude.
We do not (this was Jesus teaching His Disciples how to pray). But the principles are important and influence how we pray.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
1 John is written to believers who are in the body of Christ.
Follow the use of “we” throughout the epistle.
1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Follow the use of “we” throughout the epistle.
It is important to consider who is included when the word "we" is used. If we include all believers, we need to ask ourselves why "we" don't move mountains. have every prayer answered by God, and sell everything we have and hold all things in common.
It is important to consider who is included when the word "we" is used. If we include all believers, we need to ask ourselves why "we" don't move mountains. have every prayer answered by God, and sell everything we have and hold all things in common.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
You are deflecting from the examination of 1 John.
The word “we” is not in the examples you mentioned.
Moving mountains can be seen as metaphorical, meaning massive problems.
God does answer every prayer of believers who abide in Him, answering with yes, no, or wait.
Only the rich young ruler was told to sell everything.
But 1 John is written to believers.
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Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Again you are deflecting from the examination of 1 John, where we are told that if we confess our sins, God will forgive them.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I know that Catholic churches recite The Lord's Prayer at every service (or Mass). They call it "the Our Father." I believe "The Lord's Prayer" is the more correct title. I don't believe that it should be recited at every service or any service for that matter. As others have said, it is a model teaching us how to pray.