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Mary’s devotion to Jesus
- Thread starter Cathode
- Start date
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
The rosary seems to a Protestant to be Maryolatry, the over-valuation of the mother of Jesus.
The church epistles never even mention Mary. That is odd, if she really is our advocate, or co-redemptress.
Catholic Charities states:
How to Pray the Rosary
The church epistles never even mention Mary. That is odd, if she really is our advocate, or co-redemptress.
Catholic Charities states:
How to Pray the Rosary
- Make the Sign of the Cross and hold the crucifix, then say the Apostles' Creed.
- On the first large bead, say the Our Father.
- On the next three small beads, say three Hail Marys.
- Say the Glory Be and announce the first mystery.
- Pray five decades: For each of the five sections (decades), say one Our Father, ten Hail Marys while thinking about the mystery, one Glory Be, and the Fatima Prayer.
- End with the Hail, Holy Queen prayer and the Sign of the Cross.
- Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve,
to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us;
and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus,
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray: O God, whose Only Begotten Son,
by his life, Death, and Resurrection,
has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life,
grant, we beseech thee,
that while meditating on these mysteries
of the most holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary,
we may imitate what they contain
and obtain what they promise,
through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
That’s because they show Mary little to no honour at all.
They are so concerned about showing Mary too much honour, they don’t show her the proper honour she deserves.
All generations of Catholics call her blessed however and we do so with the words scripture by saying the Rosary.
The first mystery we meditate on is the Annunciation when the Angel comes to Mary and consents to be the Mother of God.
We read Luke 1:28 then start the decade.
We meditate on the Incarnation of Jesus, events you can read about in your Bible.
So meditation on the Bible whilst praying with the words of the Bible.
GentleGospeller
Active Member
Why would I (now a non-Roman Catholic) want to "participate in Mary's devotion to Jesus", when she is no longer living, and is deceased, awaiting her resurrection to come, and her past thoughts, speech and actions are no more?
Why would I want to "participate in Mary's devotion to Jesus", when I have the example of Jesus' devotion to His Father exemplified in the living Scripture in great detail, while Mary is barely mentioned in contrast?
Why would I want to "participate in Mary's devotion to Jesus", when on several occasions she failed in that devotion by either her own misunderstanding, her own ignorance, her own personal decision, her own sins (failures to the standard / banner of perfect love), or her listening to others over the Holy Ghost?
Why would I want to repetitiously repeat the (now) 4 mysteries (so called 'Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious, and (recently added) Luminous'), when I can have a present truth vibrant living relational conversation in prayer, supplication, thanksgiving, confession, &c., to my Father which is in Heaven, in the name of Jesus, by the Holy Ghost; all Three of whom are still Living? When I talk to my earthly father (as I do, when walking with him out doors, &c.), what would he think if all my 'conversations' with him involved a repeated paragraph on a piece of paper, and for each thing asked or spoken to me, I simply, by rote, or even intense dedicated personal focus, read out (and even thought on) the words in choreographed in arranged order on the paper at each instance the father was looking for a response from me? Like a person in a straight-jacket (the rosary so also) is constrained to rock back and forth, and due to their mental state, rocks steadily to the beat of repeated words over and over again, when anyone ever addresses them.
Why would I want to merely focus on "Jesus throughout His life on earth", when that was only one part of Jesus' life, since He was before coming to earth in the 3rd Heaven, and ascended back to that place, and is even now ministering above on my behalf before the Father? In other words, why would I want a merely earthly focus, when there is so much more to Jesus before, then and even now?
The Holy Ghost, by the words of God in scripture, creation, His own inspiration, angelic aids, &c., helps the Christian to "meditate on Jesus' life and gain greater closeness and intimacy with Jesus".
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Holy Ghost is the true representative of Jesus on earth, in all things. He speaks through the word of God:
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
At a certain point in time, she does, and said thus:
Luk_1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
But now she is deceased.
But each living person in Christ Jesus, even now, can do the same:
Mat_12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mar_3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Job was an example:
Job 36:24 Remember that thou magnify his work, which men behold.
The Psalmist was an example:
Psa_34:3 O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together.
Psa_69:30 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
The believing Gentiles were examples:
Act_10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Paul's healing of a man:
Act 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
Paul himself:
Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Mary is unique however, The Incarnation only took place in Her and of Her Immaculate flesh.
No one magnified the Lord like Mary did.
Mary isn’t deceased, she is alive body and soul in Heaven.
GentleGospeller
Active Member
In a certain way, sure, but we can experience similar things right now (Mat. 12:50; Mar. 3:35), and so Jesus is to be born in us, grow up in us, &c.
In a certain way, sure, but see previous point as to the rest and our own experience.
I disagree with the Roman Dogmas here (of "Original Sin", "Immaculate Conception (of Mary by 'Anne')" and "Impeccability") . Her flesh nature was as fallen as anyone else's in her era, and so Jesus by necessity had to take that same sinful flesh nature (Rom. 8:3; Gal. 4:4; Heb. 2:16-17; &c.) and demonstrate that by the Holy Ghost it is possible to live on earth in / with sinful flesh and yet not sin, so obtaining the victory for all and to be the example for all.
Depends on what you mean. Each of the examples I gave all magnified the LORD in one way or another, so each are unique in so doing, and so likewise, all are unique to that effect, so that in Mary's case it is no different in that it is unique to her and her situation.
No, Mary is dead. I also disagree with the Roman 'tradition' and "assumption", in that it is without evidence in scripture or history (admitted by the Romanists writers themselves), and simply exists as a mental infatuation of some born of their spiritualism. Some in ignorance, others not so.
What about Joseph? Why doesn't he get any glory?
No you can not Incarnate God of your flesh. Mary is unique not just in a certain way, but the most certain way.
Garbage, Jesus is the unblemished Lamb of God. He did not have sinful nature like fallen man.
He was like us in all ways but sin.
God does not have a sinful nature.
Jesus was the antidote to sinful nature not part of it.
Jesus flesh was immaculate of Mary’s immaculate flesh.
No you can not Incarnate God of your flesh. Mary is unique not just in a certain way, but the most certain way.
Garbage, Jesus is the unblemished Lamb of God. He did not have sinful nature like fallen man.
He was like us in all ways but sin.
God does not have a sinful nature.
Jesus was the antidote to sinful nature not part of it.
Jesus flesh was immaculate of Mary’s immaculate flesh.
This is false in that it is a stereotype (it is true with some as they go to extremes in their reaction to Catholic practices, but for the most part it is false).
Would a Protestant pray to Mary? Not if they are Christian, but who knows these days.
But most Protestants I have encountered view Mary as blessed among women.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Cathode, this is a Catholic devotional practice, not a biblical one. The Rosary is built on categories that Scripture never teaches, Marian intercession, Marian mediation, and Marian participation in the believer’s spiritual life. Baptist doctrine begins and ends with Christ as the sole mediator (1 Tim. 2:5), and Scripture never presents Mary as someone whose devotion we “participate in” or whose intimacy with Jesus becomes a pathway for our own.
Meditating on the life of Christ is good and biblical. But the Rosary frames that meditation through Marian prayers, Marian titles, and Marian roles that do not come from the apostles. Mary magnified the Lord by her obedience, not by becoming a spiritual conduit for believers. The New Testament consistently directs devotion, prayer, and intimacy toward Christ Himself, never toward or through Mary.
So while this belongs under “Other Denominations,” it’s important to be clear: the Rosary is a Catholic devotional tradition, not a scriptural practice, not apostolic doctrine, and not something Baptist theology recognizes as a biblical means of devotion. Baptist faith and practice begin with Scripture alone, and Scripture never presents Mary as a pathway for meditation, intimacy, or spiritual participation.
I expect, as before, that the defense of this practice will rely on extra‑biblical, self‑authenticating sources rather than scriptural apostolic teaching.
All
Praying to Mary is fine, we ask her to pray for us like asking any believer to pray for us.
Praying to Mary is fine, we ask her to pray for us like asking any believer to pray for us.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
1 Timothy 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
This is the cornerstone. If Christ is the one mediator, then:
- no secondary mediators
- no co‑mediators
- no intercessors in heaven
- no devotional pathways through Mary
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Excellent point. Catholic devotion to Mary isn’t built on Scripture; it’s built on later tradition. Joseph doesn’t fit that tradition, so he gets sidelined. The usual explanation is that Joseph isn’t Christ’s biological father, but that doesn’t account for the fact that he raised Christ, provided for Him, taught Him, and most likely taught Him a trade. If devotional attention were based on earthly role and faithfulness, Joseph would deserve at least as much recognition. But he doesn’t fit the Catholic tradition, so he gets sidelined..
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Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Mary is exalted to a divine, co-redemptress status to appease followers of pagan religions that worshiped a goddess. The pagans called their goddess the Queen of Heaven.
Early Israelites emerged from a Canaanite background where El was the chief high god and Asherah was his wife. As Yahweh absorbed the traits of El and Israelite religion shifted toward exclusive monotheism, the worship of a divine consort was systematically rejected, and references to Asherah were re-contextualized or condemned.
There is no record in the Bible of anyone praying to deceased humans, no matter how saintly or admired.
In fact, communicating with the dead is called necromancy, categorized under the sin of sorcery.
All
Praying to Mary is fine, we ask her to pray for us like asking any believer to pray for us.
If you have prayed the Lord’s Prayer or prayed for others, you are a mediator between God and man.
Christs unique meditation between God and man was on the Cross. That is what is meant by this.
Asking Mary or any saint in heaven to pray for us is fine, we are all members of the Body of Christ.
Praying to Mary is fine, we ask her to pray for us like asking any believer to pray for us.
If you have prayed the Lord’s Prayer or prayed for others, you are a mediator between God and man.
Christs unique meditation between God and man was on the Cross. That is what is meant by this.
Asking Mary or any saint in heaven to pray for us is fine, we are all members of the Body of Christ.
No, summoning the dead or channeling is necromancy.
Asking the living saints of heaven to pray for us is fine, they are the cloud of witnesses.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Necromancy is a type of magic that involves communicating with the dead. People historically used it as a form of divination to learn about the future or find hidden secrets. Over time, the word also came to mean black magic or sorcery in general.
Deuteronomy 18:10,11
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
That’s right, we don’t summon or channel the dead to receive information.
We ask the living saints to pray for us.