The DNA of Jesus?

[David Lamb]

No, Mary was saved before she could sin, we are saved after we sinned.

Mary had to be Holy and Immaculate for the Incarnation of God to happen of her flesh. She is Ark of the New Covenant.
The sinless enemy of the serpent, the rest of humanity was the enemy of God by sin since the Fall.

From the first parents all mankind was enemies of God because of sin, but God promised He would make the woman the serpent’s enemy by no sin, and her offspring would crush his head.

But if you say that Mary had to be holy and immaculate from conception for the incarnation of Jesus Christ to take place, why wouldn't her parents have needed to be equally holy and immaculate from conception in order for Mary to be immaculately conceived? And she had two human parents!

 

[Cathode]

I see. You noticed the word “overshadow” is used in two different verses and believe there is a connection.

Since the second reference is to Mary and the power of God Holy Spirit “overshadowing” her at the conception of Jesus, you think Mary is connected to the Ark of the covenant and the reference to the wings of the cherubim “overshadowing” the mercy seat?

I would have to research the issue to see if scholars make that connection, perhaps as foreshadowing the birth of Jesus as replacing the mercy seat.

If there is a connection, it would be to Jesus, not Mary, imo.

Again, the woman in Gen. 3 is Eve, not Mary.

Your focus on Mary is unbiblical, imo, and simply takes our attention of Jesus, where it should be.

Mary can forgive no one. Mary can give grace to no one. Mary can save no one.

Mary certainly has the privilege of being chosen by God to bare the Messiah.

She was not sinless, however. She was not a perpetual virgin (scripture clearly states Jesus had four brothers and at least two sisters). She is not a “co-redeemer” with Jesus.

Peace to you

You mean well mate, but you don’t understand this.
Scripture is far more profound than your surface level understanding of it. Not detracting from you, like I said, this Holy ground this subject.

Calling Mary a sinner is like an Israelite slapping the Ark of the Covenant with his muddy hand.
A wise man hears a warning and takes note and takes caution, and reserves his judgment in case. This costs him nothing.

The arrogant man hears a warning, and he blunders forward ignorant of his ignorance.

God guards His Throne, be told.
To detract from His Throne is to detract from Him. The Throne only magnifies the one it contains, but it also magnifies the petitions set before it.

Just as prayers and petitions are heard acutely from the Throne as The Ark of the Covenant, insults and detraction are also heard acutely.

Mary is Jesus living Throne, The Ark of the New Covenant.

The Throne though it is a created thing, a creature, it is set in an exulted place for an exulted purpose, to exult the One who resides in it.
Honouring it only honours the One in it the more.

 

[Cathode]

But if you say that Mary had to be holy and immaculate from conception for the incarnation of Jesus Christ to take place, why wouldn't her parents have needed to be equally holy and immaculate from conception in order for Mary to be immaculately conceived? And she had two human parents!

No, God promised to put enmity between the woman and the serpent.

Gracing Mary’s Immaculate Conception was God putting enmity between the woman and the serpent.

“ The Almighty has done great things for me “

Believe it, Mary wasn’t kidding.

The Almighty preserved Mary by Grace at her Conception from original sin and all personal sin.

When we are conceived we inherited original sin and are enemies of God.

When Mary was Conceived, The Almighty preserved her from original and personal sin by His Grace, making her an enemy Satan not God.
This was for Mary’s special mission to be the Mother of God, to Incarnate God from her Immaculate flesh.

Sinful flesh could not redeem sinful flesh, Jesus immaculate of the immaculate flesh of Mary could.
The unblemished Lamb of sacrifice who takes away the sin of the world, redeeming sinful fallen flesh.
It is by His Immaculate Flesh we will be resurrected and live forever.

 

[Salty]

Gracing Mary’s Immaculate Conception was God putting enmity between the woman and the serpent.

The Almighty preserved Mary by Grace at her Conception from original sin and all personal sin.


When Mary was Conceived, The Almighty preserved her from original and personal sin by His Grace, making her an enemy Satan not God.
This was for Mary’s special mission to be the Mother of God, to Incarnate God from her Immaculate flesh.

Sinful flesh could not redeem sinful flesh, Jesus immaculate of the immaculate flesh of Mary could.

Unless, I missed it - What Scripture reference do you have for the above doctrines?

 

[Cathode]

Unless, I missed it - What Scripture reference do you have for the above doctrines?

There are heaps to reference, bear with me mate, I have a dodgy connection and I’m using a phone.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is by His Immaculate Flesh we will be resurrected and live forever.

The Bible tells us that it is by His death and resurrection that we shall be saved.
I really don't need to go into your unbiblical musings. If Mary needed to be sinless from birth, so did her mother and her grandmother and so on ad infinitum. The Roman Catholics have invented a mother for her, Anne, who is never mentioned in the Bible, but if she was a sinner, how could Mary be sinless?
The Lord Jesus was without sin. We are told that several times in the Bible. We are never told that Mary was sinless; indeed, she needed to trust in God's promises to be saved by faith as I have pointed out.
Just believe the Bible, Cathode, and forget all the inventions of Rome.

 

[Cathode]

The Bible tells us that it is by His death and resurrection that we shall be saved.
I really don't need to go into your unbiblical musings. If Mary needed to be sinless from birth, so did her mother and her grandmother and so on ad infinitum. The Roman Catholics have invented a mother for her, Anne, who is never mentioned in the Bible, but if she was a sinner, how could Mary be sinless?
The Lord Jesus was without sin. We are told that several times in the Bible. We are never told that Mary was sinless; indeed, she needed to trust in God's promises to be saved by faith as I have pointed out.
Just believe the Bible, Cathode, and forget all the inventions of Rome.

I do believe the Bible, that is what I have quoted throughout the thread.
I can even provide Church Fathers quoting the same scriptures.

The Bible tells us that it is by His death and resurrection that we shall be saved.

Jesus tells us:

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day “

How does that fit with what I wrote.

“It is by His Immaculate Flesh we will be resurrected and live forever”

Mary’s Immaculate conception was the prophecied enmity God would put between the serpent and the woman in Genesis. Even explained this.

“ My spirit rejoices in God my Savior “

Mary is already saved. Her Immaculate Conception.

“ The Almighty has done great things for me “

One of those great things was making Mary the enemy of Satan by her Immaculate conception, preserving/saving her by Gods Grace.

I have made many of these allusions to scripture assuming I was conversing with a seasoned Bible aloner who would instantly recognise the scripture alluded to.

Do I assume you don’t know the scriptures at all Martin?

If I had to do an exhaustive exposition of scripture I’d have to go to 30,000 word essays on each post.

If God didn’t intervene at Mary’s conception she would have inherited original sin through her parents. Instead God put enmity between the serpent and Mary by preserving her by His Grace.

 

[Salty]

Lets try this one LAST TIME
Scripture reference !!!

 

[Cathode]

Lets try this one LALST TIME
Scripture reference !!!

I quoted the scriptures, they didn’t have the chapters and verses I know.

I’m posting 5 times to get one post through for some reason, I press post reply and it doesn’t work freezes and lose my post. Have to copy the post, close window, reload the site, delete a partial post, paste the completed reply, press post reply and hope it uploads.

All from a tiny phone in the dark, from the arse end of the planet, while eating a pie, and shooting feral foxes.

 

[Walter]

What I find to be convincing is the fact that God is not going to inhabit an unclean temple. In Luke 1, Mary is overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, mirroring how the Glory of the Lord filled the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant. 'The Church has reasoned that if God demanded an incorruptible, pure vessel of acacia wood to house the stone tablets of the old law, He would naturally prepare a spotless, sinless vessel (Mary) to carry the Word of God incarnate.'

I know Cathode has covered this, but I also know that Baptists are generally hesitant to give weight to OT typology.

 

[Cathode]

What I find to be convincing is the fact that God is not going to inhabit an unclean temple. In Luke 1, Mary is overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, mirroring how the Glory of the Lord filled the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant. 'The Church has reasoned that if God demanded an incorruptible, pure vessel of acacia wood to house the stone tablets of the old law, He would naturally prepare a spotless, sinless vessel (Mary) to carry the Word of God incarnate.'

I know Cathode has covered this, but I also know that Baptists are generally hesitant to giving weight to OT typology.

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is Old Testament revealed. Attributed to Augustine I think.

Typology is an excellent way to understand scripture in both testaments.

Can you see the scripture references I’m making in this thread Walter?

 

[Walter]

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is Old Testament revealed. Attributed to Augustine I think.

Typology is an excellent way to understand scripture in both testaments.

Can you see the scripture references I’m making in this thread Walter?

You have presented biblical support showing the necessity of Mary's immaculate conception. They are using the same tactics JW's use to challenge the doctrine of the Trinity.

How big is their God? Is God capable of preparing a spotless vessel for The Incarnate Word or not? And, wouldn't that be necessary and fitting?

 

[Cathode]

You have presented biblical support showing the necessity of Mary's immaculate conception. They are using the same tactics JW's use to challenge the doctrine of the Trinity.

How big is their God? Is God capable of preparing a spotless vessel for The Incarnate Word or not? And, wouldn't that be necessary and fitting?

It all ties in scripturally but if we look at the Fathers take, it’s the same understanding of scripture.

 

[Salty]

Most of us do NOT see that Biblical Support.

 

[canadyjd]

No, Mary was saved before she could sin, we are saved after we sinned.

No scripture to support this sssertiin.

Mary had to be Holy and Immaculate for the Incarnation of God to happen of her flesh. She is Ark of the New Covenant.

No scripture to support this assertion

The sinless enemy of the serpent, the rest of humanity was the enemy of God by sin since the Fall.

Jesus, not Mary

From the first parents all mankind was enemies of God because of sin, but God promised He would make the woman the serpent’s enemy by no sin, and her offspring would crush his head.

You are reading this doctrine into Genesis 3. It simply isn’t there.

There is no mention of the woman (Eve) being sinless. There is no mention of the woman of Genesis 3 being Mary, and in fact the context is clear the woman is Eve.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

It all ties in scripturally but if we look at the Fathers take, it’s the same understanding of scripture.

Which “Fathers”? Paul certainly never taught such things of Mary. None of the Apostles taught such things of Mary.

Even if later Church officials elevated Mary (in the Catholic Church) that doesn’t give it scriptural authority.

In fact, the Apostles would be weeping in sackcloth and ashes to hear Mary being being elevated to the same level as Jesus.

Back to the OP. Jesus had no DNA from Mary. God formed the human embryo from nothing and implanted it in Mary’s womb.

That is the only thing that makes sense. Mary’s egg was not used.

Peace to you

 

[David Lamb]

No, God promised to put enmity between the woman and the serpent.

Which woman? The context shows that it was not Mary by Eve:

Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

God was speaking to Eve, not Mary.

Gen 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

No indication that between what we read in verse 13 and verse 15, God has changed which woman He is referring to.

Gen 3:16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

Again, women before Mary had pain in childbirth. God is still talking to Eve.

Gracing Mary’s Immaculate Conception was God putting enmity between the woman and the serpent.

The enmity between Satan (the serpent) and Eve and her descendants did not begin with Mary.

“ The Almighty has done great things for me “

Believe it, Mary wasn’t kidding.

Yes, He caused her, while still a virgin, to conceive. "Doing great things for me" is not the same as "caused me to be immaculately conceived."

The Almighty preserved Mary by Grace at her Conception from original sin and all personal sin.

Show me from the Bible that this is true. I can think of no verse in the Bible that says that Mary was preserved from original sin and personal sins. Only Jesus Christ is spoken of in the Bible as being without sin.

When we are conceived we inherited original sin and are enemies of God.

Yes, that is why we need a Saviour as Mary did.

When Mary was Conceived, The Almighty preserved her from original and personal sin by His Grace, making her an enemy Satan not God.
This was for Mary’s special mission to be the Mother of God, to Incarnate God from her Immaculate flesh.

Again, show me this from the Bible.

Sinful flesh could not redeem sinful flesh, Jesus immaculate of the immaculate flesh of Mary could.
The unblemished Lamb of sacrifice who takes away the sin of the world, redeeming sinful fallen flesh.
It is by His Immaculate Flesh we will be resurrected and live forever.

Nowhere are we told that Jesus Christ was immaculate because Mary was immaculate.

 

[David Lamb]

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is Old Testament revealed. Attributed to Augustine I think.

Typology is an excellent way to understand scripture in both testaments.

Can you see the scripture references I’m making in this thread Walter?

Yes, it's attributed to Augustine (Augustine of Hippo, not Augustine of Canterbury).

 

[Cathode]

Yes, it's attributed to Augustine (Augustine of Hippo, not Augustine of Canterbury).

Yes both good Catholic Bishops.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I do believe the Bible, that is what I have quoted throughout the thread.
I can even provide Church Fathers quoting the same scriptures.



Jesus tells us:

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day “

We feed upon Christ, but not in some crass, carnal way, but spiritually, by faith (c.f. 1 Cor. 3:1-3; Heb. 5:12-14).

How does that fit with what I wrote.

“It is by His Immaculate Flesh we will be resurrected and live forever”

It doesn't.

Mary’s Immaculate conception was the prophecied enmity God would put between the serpent and the woman in Genesis. Even explained this.

This is purely fanciful, driven by your faulty tradition. The woman in Genesis 3 is plainly Eve and there is not even a hint of 'immaculate conception.' Without discussing Revelation 12, which I have neither time nor desire to do, the woman's Seed is plainly Christ, and 3:15 is the first Messianic prophecy.

“ My spirit rejoices in God my Savior “

Mary is already saved. Her Immaculate Conception.

Mary is already saved, by her faith (Luke 1:38).

“ The Almighty has done great things for me “

He certainly had.

One of those great things was making Mary the enemy of Satan by her Immaculate conception, preserving/saving her by Gods Grace.

I have made many of these allusions to scripture assuming I was conversing with a seasoned Bible aloner who would instantly recognise the scripture alluded to.

Do I assume you don’t know the scriptures at all Martin?

You may assume whatever you like. If you knew your Scriptures you would realise that Satan's enmity was towards the whole Messianic line, which is played out continually in the Bible. Two examples: 2 Kings 11:1-2; Jeremiah 52:10.

If I had to do an exhaustive exposition of scripture I’d have to go to 30,000 word essays on each post.

Spare us!!

If God didn’t intervene at Mary’s conception she would have inherited original sin through her parents. Instead God put enmity between the serpent and Mary by preserving her by His Grace.

If God needed to intervene at Mary's conception, He would have needed to interevene at her mother's conception, and her grandmother's, and so on all the way back to Eve. He intervened at our Lord's conception, so that He was without sin. That is what the Bible tells us; anything else is pure invention.