DNA OF JESUS PART II

[Armchair Apologist]

Holy Spirit is a Spirit. He doesn't produce any flesh. If God did so, it becomes the same situation of Nephilim ( Genesis 6:4) God hated the inter-marriage between the angels and women. Pagan gods may marry human beings.
Eliyahu

It was brought up in our Genesis class that if "angelic beings" were able to procreate with human women. then the virgin birth of Christ would not seem as such an unusual event. I believe the person makes a good point here.

The virgin birth was a supernatural, creative act whereby God is manifest in the flesh.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

This I agree with, as Jesus grew in Mary's womb for nine months. Unless Jesus did not have a
belly button (aka: umbilical cord), He drew all of His sustenance from Mary during that time.

Of course he drew his sustenance from Mary as would any other person as they are being formed in their mother's womb but this is completely different from any heriditary traits that this person would receive from its mother which occurs at conception.

It is my understanding that one may implant a zygote (a fertilized ovum from a completely different female) into the womb of a surrogate mother and such a surrogate would have no DNA relation to the child she would be carrying.

However, this child would draw its sustenance from the one that is bearing them just as they would with a natural mother.

Therefore, it is plausible that God could have implanted "Jesus Zygote" into Mary's womb thus impregnating her but one must ask why he would do so. I still side with Mary being the actual biological mother of Jesus including the obvious genetic physical characteristics that would be plainly seen when the two were together.

 

[Eliyahu]

How big is your God? God went outside of normal conception to bring about the Incarnation

Explain me which brain answered Jews that Jesus Himself IS before Abraham was. Could the new brain produced by Mary say that?

 

[Eliyahu]

How was Adam created?

Adam was created in the likeness of Jesus by Jesus.

 

[Eliyahu]

It was brought up in our Genesis class that if "angelic beings" were able to procreate with human women. then the virgin birth of Christ would not seem as such an unusual event. I believe the person makes a good point here.

The virgin birth was a supernatural, creative act whereby God is manifest in the flesh.

I am talking about the details of Virgin Birth without denying the virgin birth.
Virgin cannot produce any human body without the combination of Ovum and Sperm
Whose sperm was used?
God the Father is a spirit ( John 4:24) Holy Spirit is a spirit.
Both Godheads have no flesh
Even if God the Father or Holy Spirit produced any sperm to be fertilized with the ovum of Mary,
then the new human embryo would have no memory of the fellowship with the Father eternity before ( Joh 17:5) and the communication with Abraham( John 8:56-58). God doesn't have many Christ but only one.
Moses endured the reproach for the sake of Christ( Heb 11:26).
The new body and the new brain of the new person Jesus produced by Mary's ovum and the new sperm would not know what happen between Moses and Christ. Then there should exist 2 Christs which is a nonsense.
Eliyahu

 

[Foxmeister]

Why are you responding then? I have no insistence on debating anything. Why are you obsessed with not debating it?

Enjoy yourself.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Whose sperm was used?
God the Father is a spirit ( John 4:24) Holy Spirit is a spirit.
Both Godheads have no flesh
Even if God the Father or Holy Spirit produced any sperm to be fertilized with the ovum of Mary,

I do not believe anyone's "sperm" had anything to do with the incarnation of Christ. Mary's ovum had 26 Chromosomes and 26 had to be added in order for Jesus to be a viable human being (vera homo). The 26 "XY" chromosomes were spoken (decreed) into existence - they were not and then "there they were!"

We do not need to speculate any further than this and it is best that we do not IMO. You want to speak of the eternity of Christ - he is eternally existent in his deity, not his humanity. One may argue that the incarnation was eternally decreed but if we are chosen in him before the foundation of the world, are we not as well?

I know this was likely unintentional on your part but there is but one Godhead!

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Enjoy yourself.

Let's look at it from this perspective: I started the other thread and was then providentially hindered from participating. Salty deemed the topic as being worthy of further discussion and opened this new thread. Therefore, there are others who do take interest here. I do not participate in every thread on the BB, just the ones of which I take interest. I pass on the others without questioning the motives of those who are in the conversation.

 

[canadyjd]

Therefore, it is plausible that God could have implanted "Jesus Zygote" into Mary's womb thus impregnating her but one must ask why he would do so. I still side with Mary being the actual biological mother of Jesus including the obvious genetic physical characteristics that would be plainly seen when the two were together.

So He would not inherit her sin nature.

The Catholics saw this issue and invented the immaculate conception of Mary as an explanation.

Not necessary

Peace to you

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Explain me which brain answered Jews that Jesus Himself IS before Abraham was. Could the new brain produced by Mary say that?

I think I am understanding your thought process some. As I said in my other response; Jesus is eternally existent in his deity but not his humanity. Jesus is both "Truly God" and "Truly Man" and although these natures are inseparable, the attributes of his humanity is not mixed in with his deity or vice versa. Jesus was not some sort of a "demigod" like Hercules or whatever.

We understand that God is omniscient and therefore cannot be taught yet Luke 2:52 tells us that "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature..."

We also have Mt 24:36 (ESV) which says - “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." How could Jesus make such a statement and not lie about not knowing?

And no, I am nowhere near even beginning to understand everything pertaining the hypostatic union aside from the fact that the scriptures clearly teach it.

 

[kyredneck]

to understand everything pertaining the hypostatic union

Good for conversation but not necessary, imo. What better thing to do with our time here than to talk about the Bible?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

So He would not inherit her sin nature.

The Catholics saw this issue and invented the immaculate conception of Mary as an explanation.

Not necessary

Peace to you

So you are leading from the premise that Jesus needed to somehow be preserved from the corruption of his mother's sinful nature? I agree with you that the Roman Catholics "invented" the immaculate conception in order to get around this but how is this any better than the invention of a "Jesus Zygote" (for lack of a better term here, please forgive me!)? This is actually the first I have heard of this so I am trying to understand this, where it came from, who is teaching it, and why? Both you and Eliyahu are espousing this so it would not seem that either of you are making this up on your own.

It is my understanding that Adam was culpable for the fall, that this sin is passed down (inherited) from the father (Adam) to all of mankind. Anyone therefore "born of Adam" has a sinful nature. Therefore, in order for Jesus to be sinless, you simply take Adam out of the equation which was accomplished through the virgin birth! Are there any objections here? Perhaps this is where we need to refocus our discussion?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Lord Jesus got tired and needed to sleep (Mark 4:38). God does not get tired and does not need to sleep (Isaiah 40:28). Elsewhere, we read of Christ being hungry (Matthew 4:2), thirsty (John 4:6-7; 19:28). Twice we read that He wept (Luke 19:41ff, John 11:35). He is a Man; Man as though He were not God.
But when the disciples came to Him in terror, crying, "Teacher, don't You care if we drown?" He 'rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Peace, be still!" And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm' (Mark 4:38-39). Note that He did not pray to God to still the storm; He spoke, and it ceased. Only God can do that. The Lord Jesus is God; God as though He were not Man. Now wonder the disciples 'feared exceedingly and said to each other, "Who can this be? Even the wind and the sea obey Him!"' He is the God-Man, that's who! Born of Mary according to the flesh, but only begotten of God regarding His deity. 'Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people' (Hebrews 2:17; c.f. also 1:3; Col. 1:13-14).

I know nothing about DNA and am not interested in 'Zygotes.' I am interested in the Lord Jesus Christ: true Man and true God.

 

[canadyjd]

So you are leading from the premise that Jesus needed to somehow be preserved from the corruption of his mother's sinful nature? I agree with you that the Roman Catholics "invented" the immaculate conception in order to get around this but how is this any better than the invention of a "Jesus Zygote" (for lack of a better term here, please forgive me!)? This is actually the first I have heard of this so I am trying to understand this, where it came from, who is teaching it, and why? Both you and Eliyahu are espousing this so it would not seem that either of you are making this up on your own.

It is my understanding that Adam was culpable for the fall, that this sin is passed down (inherited) from the father (Adam) to all of mankind. Anyone therefore "born of Adam" has a sinful nature. Therefore, in order for Jesus to be sinless, you simply take Adam out of the equation which was accomplished through the virgin birth! Are there any objections here? Perhaps this is where we need to refocus our discussion?

So, are you saying women do not have a sin nature? Or that women cannot pass the sin nature on, it must be the man that passes the sin nature?

You asked why it was necessary, I gave you one possible explanation.

Peace to you

 

[Aaron]

Is DNA a thing in the Resurrection? Do you think your lineage here in the earth has anything to do with your identity in Heaven?

Our ethnicity is not maintained in the Resurrection. We're told explicitly that flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom, that the body sown is not the body that shall be, but God will give it a body as He pleases. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. This corruption must put on incorruption. In Christ there is no Hebrew or non-Hebrew. We which are alive and remain at the time of His coming will be changed. Christ at one time was made like us, in the likeness of sinful flesh, but when we see Him now glorified, we will be like Him, because we will see Him as He is, the Son of God, not as He was the son of Mary.

Earthly ties are dissolved.

Mary was the mother of the child that was born, but not of the Son that was given.

 

[Mike B]

To say that Mary was born without the stain of Adam's sin does not imply that she still did not
sin, as does any human. Catholics call Adam's sin as "Original Sin", and because Mary was born
without this stain, Catholics say Mary lived a sinless life.

IMO, she was the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore was worthy in God's eyes. That's
all I need to know.

The rest is for theologians to endlessly haggle over, but I believe the only conclusion they could come
to would be strictly presumptuous.

 

[Eliyahu]

I do not believe anyone's "sperm" had anything to do with the incarnation of Christ. Mary's ovum had 26 Chromosomes and 26 had to be added in order for Jesus to be a viable human being (vera homo). The 26 "XY" chromosomes were spoken (decreed) into existence - they were not and then "there they were!"

We do not need to speculate any further than this and it is best that we do not IMO. You want to speak of the eternity of Christ - he is eternally existent in his deity, not his humanity. One may argue that the incarnation was eternally decreed but if we are chosen in him before the foundation of the world, are we not as well?

I know this was likely unintentional on your part but there is but one Godhead!

First of all, you don't know the basic life science.
Man's body has 46 chromosome and 44 common chromosome plus XY, resulting in 46 chromosome
Mary had 46 Chromosome and 44 common chromosome plus XX, resulting in 46 chromosome
If the ovum of Mary was used, 22 chromosome plus X should have been fertilized with the Sperm which had 22 chromosome plus Y, then the human embryo would have had 44 common chromosome plus XY.
Human ovum is designed to be fertilized only with human sperm. Who provided the sperm?
Now here is another question. When did the body of Jesus who is Eternal God start to exist?
You are separating the Divinity of Jesus from the Humanity which was condemned by Council of Ephesus in 431AD.
I don't prohibit such possibility but want to let you know even that idea isn't accepted by Catholics.
Now, the question is whether the new body and new brain made from the ovum of Mary can remember what happened eternity before the Creation? Can the brain of the new body formed by the egg of Mary and the new sperm remember the events with Abraham?
When did the Brain of Jesus start to exist?
This is the important question about your understanding of the Eternal Deity of Jesus.
When God created Adam in His likeness ( Gen 1:26-27), Whose likeness was used for molding Adam? Likeness of Holy Spirit? Likeness of God the Father?

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

I think I am understanding your thought process some. As I said in my other response; Jesus is eternally existent in his deity but not his humanity. Jesus is both "Truly God" and "Truly Man" and although these natures are inseparable, the attributes of his humanity is not mixed in with his deity or vice versa. Jesus was not some sort of a "demigod" like Hercules or whatever.

We understand that God is omniscient and therefore cannot be taught yet Luke 2:52 tells us that "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature..."

We also have Mt 24:36 (ESV) which says - “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." How could Jesus make such a statement and not lie about not knowing?

And no, I am nowhere near even beginning to understand everything pertaining the hypostatic union aside from the fact that the scriptures clearly teach it.

Separation between Divinity and humanity was accepted neither by Catholics nor by Nestorians or by any other Christians since Council of Ephesus in 431AD, since the Bazaar Heraclides was discovered in 1895.
Questions are when the body of Eternal God the Son started to exist from
Whose likeness of Godheads was used to produce Adam in Gen 1:26-27?
Could the brain of Jesus say, if His brain was made of ovum of Mary, that
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
( John 8:56-58)
Could the brain of Jesus remember what happened 2 thousand years earlier than Mary was born?
If you cannot know this, I believe you don't know the eternity of Jesus enough to discuss.

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

To say that Mary was born without the stain of Adam's sin does not imply that she still did not
sin, as does any human. Catholics call Adam's sin as "Original Sin", and because Mary was born
without this stain, Catholics say Mary lived a sinless life.

IMO, she was the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore was worthy in God's eyes. That's
all I need to know.

The rest is for theologians to endlessly haggle over, but I believe the only conclusion they could come
to would be strictly presumptuous.

Mary was a sinner even though Catholics insist on Immaculate Conception.
Apostle Paul said " All have sinned" ( Romans 3:23)
" 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"" ( Romans 5:12)
Remember < for that> is not the conjunctive but the Relative Pronoun
Here Paul says again < All have sinned> Paul doesn't mention any exception for Mary even though Paul outlived Mary and knew about the birth of Mary and about the Virgin Birth.
The biggest sin attempted by Mary was to capture Jesus so that she may stop the ministry of Jesus to preach the Gospel!
Read Mark 3:21, 31-35
21 When His family heard this, they set out to restrain Him, because they said, “He’s out of His mind.”
31 Then His mother and His brothers came, and standing outside, they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him and told Him, “Look, Your mother, Your brothers, and Your sisters[k] are outside asking for You.”

33 He replied to them, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who were sitting in a circle around Him, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is My brother


Could you understand why Jesus shouted the harsh words against Mary?< Who is my mother?> Didn't Jesus know Mary was His mother?
What did Matthew report for the same situation?

Mt 12:46-50

46 He was still speaking to the crowds when suddenly His mother and brothers were standing outside wanting to speak to Him. 47 Someone told Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You.”[n]
48 But He replied to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, that person is My brother and sister and mother.”

Same Report!

Good that Jesus didn't obey His mother!
Mary went to the tomb of Jesus on the third day with the spice and ointment because she never imagined the Resurrection. ( Luke 24:10, Mt 28:1, Mark 16:1) Nobody in the world believed Jesus would be resurrected on the morning of Resurrection and Mary was not an exception.
So, the claim that Mary was sinless is groundless, and Immaculate Conception is an Immaculate Deception!

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

The Lord Jesus got tired and needed to sleep (Mark 4:38). God does not get tired and does not need to sleep (Isaiah 40:28). Elsewhere, we read of Christ being hungry (Matthew 4:2), thirsty (John 4:6-7; 19:28). Twice we read that He wept (Luke 19:41ff, John 11:35). He is a Man; Man as though He were not God.
But when the disciples came to Him in terror, crying, "Teacher, don't You care if we drown?" He 'rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Peace, be still!" And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm' (Mark 4:38-39). Note that He did not pray to God to still the storm; He spoke, and it ceased. Only God can do that. The Lord Jesus is God; God as though He were not Man. Now wonder the disciples 'feared exceedingly and said to each other, "Who can this be? Even the wind and the sea obey Him!"' He is the God-Man, that's who! Born of Mary according to the flesh, but only begotten of God regarding His deity. 'Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people' (Hebrews 2:17; c.f. also 1:3; Col. 1:13-14).

I know nothing about DNA and am not interested in 'Zygotes.' I am interested in the Lord Jesus Christ: true Man and true God.

The body of Jesus was exactly the same as the body of Adam.
Adam failed but Jesus didn't
Therefor Body of Adam had sin ( death factors as per Romans 5:12) but Jesus didn't have.
Jesus overcame all the temptations and trials.
Jesus came to this world in order to rescue the race of the first Adam

1 Cor 15:
45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being;[m] the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
47 The first man was from the earth
and made of dust;
the second man is[n] from heaven.

We can say Jesus, God the Son is Eternal, and He is the Creator of all human beings ( John 1:1-3, Col 1:16-18)
Col 1:16 clarifies who created all human beings!
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This verse is talking about Jesus. It says Jesus created all in Heaven, Earth, Visible or Invisible, Principalities, etc.
Adam was included here. Jesus was the Creator of Adam in Genesis 1:26-27 and when He created Adam, He made Adam in His likeness, but Adam failed.
The brain of Jesus when He told Jews that
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.( John 8:56, 58)

Could Jesus remember this if His brain was produced by the ovum of Mary and another sperm?
Remember this Jesus didn't say Before Abraham was, I had been, but He said < I AM>
The I AM before Abraham must be the same Jesus who was speaking to the Jews.
So, the brain of Jesus at the time of Abraham must be the same brain of Jesus at the time when Jesus was speaking to the Jews.
This relates to the scope of the deity and Omni-Presence of Jesus timewise, and His eternity

Eliyahu