Church Worship singing and music

[Its_real_for me !]

Gotta accept the fact that we are living in the New Testament not the old . You wanna follow the Old Canon in the psalms , that's on you !

The only verses mentioned is singing ( or music ) in church services is...

Ephesians 5:19 "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord"

Colossians 3:16, "teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom through psalms ( meaning a song but doesn't mean how it was performed in the OT) and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING ( no mention of the type of music and instruments) to God with gratitude in your hearts"

Hebrews 12:2, "I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises"

James 5:13 "Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise"

and I wouldn't doubt at one time just acapella was done due to these verses not talking about instruments.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

What is your point here and why the confrontational and argumentative tone? I do not doubt that anyone here disagrees with what you are saying.

Based upon the scriptures you have cited, we perfectly understand the reason for using singing in our worship. The scriptures in the NT does not specifically mention the use of musical instrument nor do they expressly forbid them so I believe you can form your own opinion and exercise a little grace towards those who may disagree!

The persecuted church of the first century likely had other things to do aside from developing any sort of elaborate hymnody and people likely did not have time to take up the "kithara" in order to add musical accompaniment. I agree that we have gone too far with our "Worship" services and perhaps it is a good idea at times to unplug your Fender Stratocasters and sing "acapella" ever so often and rediscover what a blessing such truly can be! Those who get all critical and legalistic about it really ruin it for everyone!

I hate rude behavior in a man - I won't tolerate it!

 

[JonC]

God is immutable. In the NT we are told to speak in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs making a joyful noise from the heart.

The psalms are in the Old Testament.

I know "immutable" is one of those "big words". It means that God does not change in His nature.

When the NT tells us to devote ourselves to Scripture it is speaking (at the time it was written) of the Old Testament. We devote ourselves to Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

God is immutable. In the NT we are told to speak in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs making a joyful noise from the heart.

The psalms are in the Old Testament.

I know "immutable" is one of those "big words". It means that God does not change in His nature.

When the NT tells us to devote ourselves to Scripture it is speaking (at the time it was written) of the Old Testament. We devote ourselves to Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles.

The doctrine of immutability is a good thing to bring up in discussions such as this. The nature and character of God does not change between the Old and New Testament. God would not inspire Psalm 150 where we are instructed to "Praise him with stringed instruments" and to "Play skillfully with a loud noise" (I.E., fire up the Stratocaster!) only to say that musical instruments are unscriptural in the New Testament!

But it is good at times to unplug the ol' Stratocaster and open up a good hymnal and "raise the rafters" with some good "sanging!!!"

 

[Mike B]

I love to sing to the Lord, and generally prefer the older hymns that I know the lyric
and words to. Having emphysema doesn't stop me one bit from belting out my love
for the Lord in song, and fortunately when the whole church is singing my croaking
gets drowned out.

Being hearing impaired, if they are singing a song I don't know, and especially if there's a
bunch of instruments playing (like electric guitar) I generally won't have a clue to what they
are singing. In my one working ear it's all just a jumble of noise....could be "Smoke on the
water" for all I can tell.

A good piano player and an old gospel song is all that is needed, and I too enjoy just the
people raising their voices and hearts to the Lord without any instruments.

I attended a local, "non-denominational" church last Sunday, and the four ladies did their best,
but my opinion overall was that there was too much singing (or standing and listening while
the four ladies sang) and not enough preaching. Doubtful I'll return for another service there.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

Typo, ! Sorry about that. Didn’t mean to come off brash.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

God is immutable. In the NT we are told to speak in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs making a joyful noise from the heart.

The psalms are in the Old Testament.

I know "immutable" is one of those "big words". It means that God does not change in His nature.

When the NT tells us to devote ourselves to Scripture it is speaking (at the time it was written) of the Old Testament. We devote ourselves to Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles.

God’s character is the same yesterday today and forever. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

However…he does change the course of events.

One example about dietary laws, verses God telling Peter, a Jew, kill and eat.

Acts 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Acts 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

 

[JonC]

God’s character is the same yesterday today and forever. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

However…he does change the course of events.

One example about dietary laws, verses God telling Peter, a Jew, kill and eat.

I agree things change. Adam was given plants as food, Noah all animals, Israel from Moses to the fulliment of the Old Covenant had dietary laws.

BUT those were in the Bible. The only thing we are told regarding worship is to worship in spirit and truth.

The New Testament does not prohibit musical instruments. The New Testament does not confirm or deny that congregations sang using instruments.

The only reason to demand worship should be a cappella or should be accompanied with musical instruments is one elevates their preferences to the role of God.

I have no problem with congregations singing a cappella. Perhaps these churches have no members God blesses with the gift to play an instrument. Maybe they prefer a cappella.

I also have no problem with congregations having members God gifted with the talent to play instruments joining in worship using their gifts.

The real problem (the sin) comes in when professing Christians judge the worship of other Christians (they "judge the servants of Another").


For some reason it has become common for believers of one congregation and practices to ignore Scripture and weasel their way into the business of another congregation with diffenent practices.

If your congregation only sings a capella you should do so in spirit and truth. If my congregation uses a paino, or a guitar and drums, or trumpets and a saxophone, then we should do so in spirit and truth.

The worship of your congregation is none of my business. The worship of another congregation is none of your business.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

I agree things change. Adam was given plants as food, Noah all animals, Israel from Moses to the fulliment of the Old Covenant had dietary laws.

BUT those were in the Bible. The only thing we are told regarding worship is to worship in spirit and truth.

The New Testament does not prohibit musical instruments. The New Testament does not confirm or deny that congregations sang using instruments.

The only reason to demand worship should be a cappella or should be accompanied with musical instruments is one elevates their preferences to the role of God.

I have no problem with congregations singing a cappella. Perhaps these churches have no members God blesses with the gift to play an instrument. Maybe they prefer a cappella.

I also have no problem with congregations having members God gifted with the talent to play instruments joining in worship using their gifts.

The real problem (the sin) comes in when professing Christians judge the worship of other Christians (they "judge the servants of Another").


For some reason it has become common for believers of one congregation and practices to ignore Scripture and weasel their way into the business of another congregation with diffenent practices.

If your congregation only sings a capella you should do so in spirit and truth. If my congregation uses a paino, or a guitar and drums, or trumpets and a saxophone, then we should do so in spirit and truth.

The worship of your congregation is none of my business. The worship of another congregation is none of your business.

I make it my business to avoid being part of it, and prohibits me from being able to find a church to worship and to encourage others not to be part of it. Either churches are non denominational contemporary music or if they aren’t they have yelling preachers at Baptist churches. Can’t win. Contemporary Worship service music is about feel good sensationalism/entertainment, then it not glorifying God, it’s glorifying men, and that’s not my opinion that’s a fact. To me it’s a distraction.

 

[JonC]

I make it my business to avoid being part of it, and prohibits me from being able to find a church to worship and to encourage others not to be part of it. Either churches are non denominational contemporary music or if they aren’t they have yelling preachers at Baptist churches. Can’t win. Contemporary Worship service music is about feel good sensationalism/entertainment, then it not glorifying God, it’s glorifying men, and that’s not my opinion that’s a fact. To me it’s a distraction.

That is your business. Follow your conscious.

I would never consider attending a church that restricts worship to a cappella singing. I have visited a church that only allowed the kjv (that was a non-starter as the only reason is heresy). So I do not attend those churches.

Contemporary worship music is not about feelings, but it does not exclude feelings. For you it would be an obstacle. For me, singing only old hymns would be an obstacle.

We worship in truth and spirit. This sometimes means we worship differently. But where you desire people to abandon true worship I say each must obey God and genuinely worship Him.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

That is your business. Follow your conscious.

I would never consider attending a church that restricts worship to a cappella singing. I have visited a church that only allowed the kjv (that was a non-starter as the only reason is heresy). So I do not attend those churches.

Contemporary worship music is not about feelings, but it does not exclude feelings. For you it would be an obstacle. For me, singing only old hymns would be an obstacle.

We worship in truth and spirit. This sometimes means we worship differently. But where you desire people to abandon true worship I say each must obey God and genuinely worship Him.

It’s like being in a classroom with girls with mini skirts on trying to pay attention to the lesson and the teacher, it's a distraction. No dress code no standard. Does your church dress modestly ?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I make it my business to avoid being part of it, and prohibits me from being able to find a church to worship and to encourage others not to be part of it. Either churches are non denominational contemporary music or if they aren’t they have yelling preachers at Baptist churches. Can’t win. Contemporary Worship service music is about feel good sensationalism/entertainment, then it not glorifying God, it’s glorifying men, and that’s not my opinion that’s a fact. To me it’s a distraction.

An excessively critical spirit will prevent you from being part of any body of believers. Worse yet, it affects your family and everyone else who is looking to you for spiritual leadership! It is sinful behavior plain and simple! No church is perfect and you will never agree with everything but if the fruit of the Spirit (Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith) is evident and operating in your life, you will have the ability to extend grace towards those of whom you have disagreement.

I agree things change. Adam was given plants as food, Noah all animals, Israel from Moses to the fulliment of the Old Covenant had dietary laws.

BUT those were in the Bible. The only thing we are told regarding worship is to worship in spirit and truth.

Bingo! God commanded Peter to "Arise, Kill and Eat." There is no such command for believers to set aside their Kitharas and sing strictly acapella although those who have never experienced such do not know what they are missing but this is where grace and liberty come into play.

I have no problem with congregations singing a cappella. Perhaps these churches have no members God blesses with the gift to play an instrument. Maybe they prefer a cappella.

I belive we could "park a while" on your statement I have bolded. It seems that the "Contemporary Worship Team" has become as much "tradition" these days as a piano, organ, and hymnals were a couple generations ago! In other words, a church often feels "obligated" to have a worship team whether they have skilled musicians in the congregation or not. They do either one of two things:

1. They encourage members of the congregation to learn an instrument so they can play with the worship team and the end result is something really, really bad with half the congregation waiting in the foyer for the "worship" segment to end (and a church really needs to give attention to this).

2. If they have financial means, they may advertise on Craigslist hiring musicians off the street to play in their worship service. They may be proficient on their instrument but likely not even saved and perhaps still high or hung over from the bar gig they played the night before! I used to play in "bar bands" and have often been told the most lucrative gigs around is playing Sunday Mornings with the worship team in a church!

If you have to resort to either of these in order to "staff a worship team at your church," perhaps you are better off singing acapella and maybe this is what the Lord is leading you to do?

 

[Its_real_for me !]

I never been to a church with appella and as far as having a critical spirit just because l say that contemporary praise BANDS shouldn’t be in a worship service doesn’t mean anything to me, maybe to you.

The last church we were attending that went contemporary went for the wrong reasons, numbers, the membership went down.

I always looked around to see folks either not into it or enjoying themselves too much and I don't see it worshipping but if you do that's you.

you will have the ability to extend grace towards those of whom you have disagreement.

In my tenure there were folks walking with the Lord, and it seemed they just went with the flow just because they were thier when the church began and just tolerated the changes. Or like now just because the Pastor passed away and thiers family that are related and they have been thier since the beginning, they allow things the Pastor wouldn't have or he was ok with it but I never seen it happen while he was there, see where I'm going with this? It starts out good but then things happen. Gradually things decline and folks don't see it for what it is.

I'll give you a classic example.....

I was invited to a "study" from a guy who has a sweet spirit from a guy who used to work at my wifes company. Super nice guy, loves the Lord, always had great conversations with my wife. The pastor of his church was a jeckle and hyde BIG TIME !!

Mean spirted, BIG TIME. At first him and I were having a really good conversation, then he spoke to the group in the house. It was INSANE to say the least. I stayed out of respect for my wifes friend. His behavior was atrocious. I ask my wife how in the world does he sit under that every week ? Or the wrong people not bringing in the right God given qualification at another church and hearing them say they could afford his mistakes.. an unqualified young kid who only was a youth pastor for two years and eventually cheated at the pupilt with sermons he copied and read at the pulpit, instead of studying it on his own.

 

[Mike B]

Mean spirted, BIG TIME. At first him and I were having a really good conversation, then he spoke to the group in the house. It was INSANE to say the least. I stayed out of respect for my wifes friend. His behavior was atrocious.

I have -0- tolerance for "mean spirited people". May I ask, what did this fellow do, or say, that was so
out-of-line? Was he preaching bad doctrine, or was he just a jerk?

 

[Its_real_for me !]

I have -0- tolerance for "mean spirited people". May I ask, what did this fellow do, or say, that was so
out-of-line? Was he preaching bad doctrine, or was he just a jerk?

screaming and bashing the living daylights out of people, not us just like government, which I had not problem with disliking what they do, but to mock them with discontent, pounding the table, very erractic.

 

[JonC]

@Its_real_for me !

I do not know what is meant by "praise bands".

What I am talking about is people in the congregation using their gifts to worship God within the worship of that congregation.

I was not talking about hiring bands to conduct worship.

When I was young (in the late 70's and early 80's) we had a woman who was gifted with the talent to play the paino. She played during worship. Occasionally a member gifted in playing the guitar played the guitar.

We now have Christians playing a keyboard (we cannot use a paino in our circumstance), drums, guitars.

We do not condemn the use of "old hymns" (we sing those as well). But the music is not as "dull" (subjective word, but adequate as we are speaking of a younger generation God has been very active in using and developing for His kingdom).

I have witnessed God working through the church as a whole, Christians using their gifts as members on a congregation, working with younger Christians to use their gifts.

I like this because of the spiritual growth and discipleship that goes on when members do more than sit and listen to a sermon, ding as led, but never exercise the gifts God gave them.


By your posts I understand that you would be unable to worship in truth using contemporary worship music. You see it as show. That is subjective and cultural, but it is perfectly fine. Don't use that music.

But you are ignoring that others cannot worship with old hymns sung traditionally (as they were a century ago) because that would not be in spirit and truth. Others hear it as pretentious, putting on airs. That is also fine.

When your old hymns were new many Christians objected because to them it was too secular. They could not sing your hymns in spirit and truth because they viewed them as introducing the secular into worship. That is fine. They did not have to adopt your hymns.

Early Christians would not have been able to worship using your hymns (or mine) because it was too foreign and did not suit their worship (they did not use harmony, and both traditional hymns and contemporary worship music use harmony). That is fine as well. They are not us and we are not them.


We have no right to condemn the worship of another congregation. We do have the responsibility to go where God leads us, but not to criticize the servants of Another.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

@Its_real_for me !

I do not know what is meant by "praise bands".

What I am talking about is people in the congregation using their gifts to worship God within the worship of that congregation.

I was not talking about hiring bands to conduct worship.

When I was young (in the late 70's and early 80's) we had a woman who was gifted with the talent to play the paino. She played during worship. Occasionally a member gifted in playing the guitar played the guitar.

We now have Christians playing a keyboard (we cannot use a paino in our circumstance), drums, guitars.

We do not condemn the use of "old hymns" (we sing those as well). But the music is not as "dull" (subjective word, but adequate as we are speaking of a younger generation God has been very active in using and developing for His kingdom).

I have witnessed God working through the church as a whole, Christians using their gifts as members on a congregation, working with younger Christians to use their gifts.

I like this because of the spiritual growth and discipleship that goes on when members do more than sit and listen to a sermon, ding as led, but never exercise the gifts God gave them.


By your posts I understand that you would be unable to worship in truth using contemporary worship music. You see it as show. That is subjective and cultural, but it is perfectly fine. Don't use that music.

But you are ignoring that others cannot worship with old hymns sung traditionally (as they were a century ago) because that would not be in spirit and truth. Others hear it as pretentious, putting on airs. That is also fine.

When your old hymns were new many Christians objected because to them it was too secular. They could not sing your hymns in spirit and truth because they viewed them as introducing the secular into worship. That is fine. They did not have to adopt your hymns.

Early Christians would not have been able to worship using your hymns (or mine) because it was too foreign and did not suit their worship (they did not use harmony, and both traditional hymns and contemporary worship music use harmony). That is fine as well. They are not us and we are not them.


We have no right to condemn the worship of another congregation. We do have the responsibility to go where God leads us, but not to criticize the servants of Another.

Bottom line is this, God gave man a creative mind, not to create dull songs to sing to Him. I never liked certain songs growing up that didn’t appeal to me. I believe based on the scriptures this…

Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I don’t believe that contemporary songs appeal to God, considering.. we are made in His image. I can’t accept the fact that you know what God likes and doesn’t like in regards to music.

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making MELODY in your heart to the Lord;

Melody….
a sweet or agreeable succession or arrangement of sounds.

a rhythmic succession of single tones organized as an aesthetic whole

Not all old hymns sound good to me and l don’t believe they sound good to God. I never cared for any contemporary music at all. Other than Christian not played in a church sanctuary. Christmas music played in church is way better than any contemporary songs played in a church’s sanctuary.

 

[JonC]

Bottom line is this, God gave man a creative mind, not to create dull songs to sing to Him.

The bottom line is that "dull" is subjective (you are assuming your preferences, what you find dull, displeases God).

I know of no traditional hymns that I do not find dull (based on the music). Maybe a few old Chriatmas songs. But for the most part I find old hymns (the music) empty and superficial.

That says nothing of the music itself, but speaks to my own preferences.

I know many who love Classical music, but I find Classical music dull (I do like a few of the Impressionists, but not Classical).

I would want you to sing hymns if you find contemporary praise dull and an obstacle to your worship.

At the same time I want those who find contemporary praise a true expression of worship but hymns dull and ceremonially putting on airs to sing praise songs.

I want non-Western Christians who praise God with the type of music used in the bible but find Western music unapproachable to continue praising God in a way that is in spirit and truth.


The bottom line is when a Christian condemns the worship of other Christians because of the style of music they use that person has a spiritual issue that needs to be addressed as they are actively sinning against God by judging Another's servants.



The music accompanying traditional hymns are not known for their melody. Traditional hymns stick to a very narrow melody range.

The interesting part is traditional hymns depend on harmony, not melody, for structure (like with Contemporary Worship Music, traditional hymns use melody to tell the story and harmony to provide the "feel" or emotion).

The main difference between Contemporary Praise and traditional hymns is Contemporary Praise music is more organic (originates in the moment by the worshippers to a great extent) while hymns are printed on a score.

BUT both are forms of music foreign to the worshippers in the Bible. Both depend on harmony, which was absent in biblical music.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

The bottom line is that "dull" is subjective (you are assuming your preferences, what you find dull, displeases God).

I know of no traditional hymns that I do not find dull (based on the music). Maybe a few old Chriatmas songs. But for the most part I find old hymns (the music) empty and superficial.

That says nothing of the music itself, but speaks to my own preferences.

I know many who love Classical music, but I find Classical music dull (I do like a few of the Impressionists, but not Classical).

I would want you to sing hymns if you find contemporary praise dull and an obstacle to your worship.

At the same time I want those who find contemporary praise a true expression of worship but hymns dull and ceremonially putting on airs to sing praise songs.

I want non-Western Christians who praise God with the type of music used in the bible but find Western music unapproachable to continue praising God in a way that is in spirit and truth.


The bottom line is when a Christian condemns the worship of other Christians because of the style of music they use that person has a spiritual issue that needs to be addressed as they are actively sinning against God by judging Another's servants.



The music accompanying traditional hymns are not known for their melody. Traditional hymns stick to a very narrow melody range.

The interesting part is traditional hymns depend on harmony, not melody, for structure (like with Contemporary Worship Music, traditional hymns use melody to tell the story and harmony to provide the "feel" or emotion).

The main difference between Contemporary Praise and traditional hymns is Contemporary Praise music is more organic (originates in the moment by the worshippers to a great extent) while hymns are printed on a score.

BUT both are forms of music foreign to the worshippers in the Bible. Both depend on harmony, which was absent in biblical music.

Traditional hymns stick to a very narrow melody range.

So why does a melody have to sound so extravagant?? Plenty of Beatles songs that aren’t extravagant along with other songs from bands that weren’t extravagant and hit the top of the charts and stayed there. No l don’t listen to it anymore but l do remember that.

And contemporary “worship” ?? music has very little melody and is extremely repetitive, traditional hymns have very little repeated lyrics but the same courus lines.

Traditional hymns suffer a bit with that but there are plenty that would blow contemporary music to shame they’re called 7 words 11 times songs, your argument is extremely weak.

 

[JonC]

I don’t believe that contemporary songs appeal to God, considering.. we are made in His image. I can’t accept the fact that you know what God likes and doesn’t like in regards to music.

I am addressing this separately because I get long winded (and this highlights what I have been saying).

I know what God likes when it comes to worship because God has told us what He likes. We are to worship in spirit and truth.

In the Bible this singing excluded the type of music that accompanies traditiinal hymns (and contemporary praise music). Western music was foreign to the worship mentioned in the Bible.


Does singing hymns please God? If it is worship in spirit and truth, but not if it is just ceremony. Does singing contemporary praise songs please God? If it is in spirit and truth, but not if it is by people who do so superficially.


What I am saying is you have no justification in saying that God only likes the music you like. The only music God has ever commanded was heartfelt and emotional (then it was shouting His glory, clanging cymbols, beating drums, blowing horns, using lyres).

But the instruments used was not the point. The pount was worship in spirit snd truth with all we are - not just the mind but also the heart.