Chosen In Him, Ephesians 1:4

[Van]

Some folks explain being chosen in Him as meaning we were chosen as specific foreseen individuals in anticipation of the salvation that would be available “in Him.” This seems to me to be an unnatural reading of the text. Rather the phrase “in Him” seems to me to describe how we were chosen. “We were chosen in Him” meaning He was chosen and in some manner we were seen as affiliated with Him and therefore in choosing Him we were chosen as a consequence. Therefore the “we” need not refer to specific individuals, but only corporately to believers in Christ that would subsequently be redeemed individually.

Our options:

1) We were chosen individually to be in Him. Problem one, to be is not in the text so this interpretation relies on adding to the text to make it say something other than what it says. Problem two, how could we be chosen individually before we were created. Again, by adding "as foreseen individuals" this problem can be dodged, but that puts us back to adding to the text to make it say what it does not say.

2) Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the Redeemer, because He was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20. Therefore when the Redeemer was chosen, the target group of God's redemption plan was chosen corporately, thus chosen in Him. Therefore when we are placed in Him (during our lifetime) we receive God's purpose and grace from all eternity.
Bottom line, Ephesians 1:4 refers to Christ being chosen before creation to be God's Lamb of God, God's Redeemer, and therefore also constituted the corporate election of those Christ might redeem. Both 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5 refer to our individual election for salvation during our physical lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

[Van]

Scripture precludes being individually chosen before creation, because we once we "not a people" chosen for God's own possession, 1 Peter 2:9-10.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Some folks explain being chosen in Him as meaning we were chosen as specific foreseen individuals

We are chosen, but Scripture makes clear that the chosen are those who receive of their own free will. Election in the gospel call is not mechanical or imposed; it is relational and responsive. As H. A. Ironside rightly summarized, ‘All are chosen who heed the call.’ The call is genuinely extended to all, and those who answer it become the chosen.

Scripture itself presents calling this way: ‘Many are called, but few are chosen’ (Matthew 22:14). The call is universal; the chosen are those who respond. Likewise, ‘Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely’ (Revelation 22:17). The chosen are the “whosoever will.”

There is no contradiction between being chosen and freely receiving, the former is conditioned by the latter.

 

[Van]

We are chosen, but Scripture makes clear that the chosen are those who receive of their own free will. Election in the gospel call is not mechanical or imposed; it is relational and responsive. As H. A. Ironside rightly summarized, ‘All are chosen who heed the call.’ The call is genuinely extended to all, and those who answer it become the chosen.

Scripture itself presents calling this way: ‘Many are called, but few are chosen’ (Matthew 22:14). The call is universal; the chosen are those who respond. Likewise, ‘Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely’ (Revelation 22:17). The chosen are the “whosoever will.”

There is no contradiction between being chosen and freely receiving, the former is conditioned by the latter.

Here may be a carefully written deception, saying one thing but possibly meaning another.

Did the post say that the lost are innately able to respond affirmatively to the gospel "call?" Nope

You were free to assume that was the meaning. But what if "whosoever will" are only those of the lost who have been "enabled" by "irresistible grace?" That view is not precluded by the post.

The false doctrine claims foreseen individuals were chosen before the foundation of the world, and only these individuals are enabled to affirmatively respond to the call of the gospel.

OTOH, the post does not address that since we lived "not as a people"chosen for God's own possession, 1 Peter 2:9-10, we could not have been chosen individually before the foundation of the world.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Here may be a carefully written deception, saying one thing but possibly meaning another.

Van, nothing in my post suggested irresistible grace or innate inability. I simply stated the biblical condition Scripture gives: the chosen are those who heed the call. Matthew 22:14 and Revelation 22:17 present election as responsive, not imposed. I reject all forms of Calvinism.

 

[Brightfame52]

Some folks explain being chosen in Him as meaning we were chosen as specific foreseen individuals in anticipation of the salvation that would be available “in Him.” This seems to me to be an unnatural reading of the text. Rather the phrase “in Him” seems to me to describe how we were chosen. “We were chosen in Him” meaning He was chosen and in some manner we were seen as affiliated with Him and therefore in choosing Him we were chosen as a consequence. Therefore the “we” need not refer to specific individuals, but only corporately to believers in Christ that would subsequently be redeemed individually.

Our options:

1) We were chosen individually to be in Him. Problem one, to be is not in the text so this interpretation relies on adding to the text to make it say something other than what it says. Problem two, how could we be chosen individually before we were created. Again, by adding "as foreseen individuals" this problem can be dodged, but that puts us back to adding to the text to make it say what it does not say.

2) Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the Redeemer, because He was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20. Therefore when the Redeemer was chosen, the target group of God's redemption plan was chosen corporately, thus chosen in Him. Therefore when we are placed in Him (during our lifetime) we receive God's purpose and grace from all eternity.
Bottom line, Ephesians 1:4 refers to Christ being chosen before creation to be God's Lamb of God, God's Redeemer, and therefore also constituted the corporate election of those Christ might redeem. Both 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5 refer to our individual election for salvation during our physical lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

Van, I think your argument has to import a concept into Ephesians 1:4 that Paul himself does not state.

Paul does not say, “He chose Christ, and therefore corporately chose those who would later believe.” He says:

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…” (Eph. 1:4)

The subject is he (God), the object is us, and “in him” describes the sphere/relationship in which “us” were chosen. You don't need to insert the words “to be” to get that meaning. The actual words already tell us whom God chose: us.

Your appeal to 1 Peter 1:19–20 establishes that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world as the Lamb, but it does not establish that Ephesians 1:4 is talking about Christ being the object of election rather than “us” being chosen in Christ.

And the context makes the personal referent even harder to turn into merely an abstract corporate class:

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ…” (Eph. 1:5)

The same “us” who were chosen in verse 4 are predestinated to adoption in verse 5. Then Paul says “we have redemption” (v. 7), “made known unto us” (v. 9), and “we should be to the praise of his glory” (v. 12).

So the sequence is not:

Christ was chosen → an undefined corporate group was potentially chosen → individuals later enter Christ → then they become God's elect.

Paul's sequence is:

God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world → predestinated us unto adoption → accepted us in the Beloved → redeemed us through His blood.

Nor is “how could we be chosen individually before we were created?” a difficulty for Paul's doctrine. That's actually the point of the phrase “before the foundation of the world.” Romans 9:11 gives the same principle:

“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand…”

The fact that the elect did not yet exist does not make God's choice impossible. It demonstrates that the choice was not based upon their subsequent works.

Finally, your statement that individuals are elected for salvation during their lifetime based upon God crediting their faith as righteousness needs to be demonstrated from the texts you cite. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 actually says:

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

Notice the order: chosen from the beginning → salvation → through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Likewise, James 2:5 says:

“Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?”

James does not say God chose them because He first credited their faith as righteousness. Their being “rich in faith” describes those whom God chose, rather than giving us a cause outside God's gracious choice for that election.

So the real question is not whether Christ was eternally appointed as the Lamb. He certainly was. The question is whether Ephesians 1:4 says Christ was chosen instead of saying that God chose “us in him.” The text plainly says the latter.

 

[Van]

Van, nothing in my post suggested irresistible grace or innate inability. I simply stated the biblical condition Scripture gives: the chosen are those who heed the call. Matthew 22:14 and Revelation 22:17 present election as responsive, not imposed. I reject all forms of Calvinism.

More evasion, why not answer the actual question? Did the post say that the lost are innately able to respond affirmatively to the gospel "call?"

 

[Van]

Van, I think your argument has to import a concept into Ephesians 1:4 that Paul himself does not state.

Paul does not say, “He chose Christ, and therefore corporately chose those who would later believe.” He says:


The subject is he (God), the object is us, and “in him” describes the sphere/relationship in which “us” were chosen. You don't need to insert the words “to be” to get that meaning. The actual words already tell us whom God chose: us.

Your appeal to 1 Peter 1:19–20 establishes that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world as the Lamb, but it does not establish that Ephesians 1:4 is talking about Christ being the object of election rather than “us” being chosen in Christ.

And the context makes the personal referent even harder to turn into merely an abstract corporate class:


The same “us” who were chosen in verse 4 are predestinated to adoption in verse 5. Then Paul says “we have redemption” (v. 7), “made known unto us” (v. 9), and “we should be to the praise of his glory” (v. 12).

So the sequence is not:

Christ was chosen → an undefined corporate group was potentially chosen → individuals later enter Christ → then they become God's elect.

Paul's sequence is:

God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world → predestinated us unto adoption → accepted us in the Beloved → redeemed us through His blood.

Nor is “how could we be chosen individually before we were created?” a difficulty for Paul's doctrine. That's actually the point of the phrase “before the foundation of the world.” Romans 9:11 gives the same principle:


The fact that the elect did not yet exist does not make God's choice impossible. It demonstrates that the choice was not based upon their subsequent works.

Finally, your statement that individuals are elected for salvation during their lifetime based upon God crediting their faith as righteousness needs to be demonstrated from the texts you cite. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 actually says:


Notice the order: chosen from the beginning → salvation → through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Likewise, James 2:5 says:


James does not say God chose them because He first credited their faith as righteousness. Their being “rich in faith” describes those whom God chose, rather than giving us a cause outside God's gracious choice for that election.

So the real question is not whether Christ was eternally appointed as the Lamb. He certainly was. The question is whether Ephesians 1:4 says Christ was chosen instead of saying that God chose “us in him.” The text plainly says the latter.

1) Nothing wrong with "importing" on topic truths from other passages. Was Christ chosen before the foundation of the world? Yes. So to be "chosen in Him" means He was chosen individually, and as a consequence everyone He would redeem was chosen corporately.

2) I did not say the verse means "to be chosen." No need for obfuscation.

3) I did not make Christ the subject, rather than 'He (subject) chose (verb) us (direct object) in Him (indirect object). What I said is that when God chose Christ individually, He chose us -those redeemed - corporately. Thus "He chose us in Him."

4) The context requires that to be chosen in Him means we were chosen corporately as a consequence of Christ being chosen as redeemer. You do not choose a redeemer without a plan to redeem.

5) Yes, God's redemption plan includes that all those spiritually redeemed are then predestined to bodily redemption.

6) I did not say Ephesians 1:4 refers to "potentially chosen" people. More obfuscation.

7) Again, God could not have chosen us individually before the foundation of the world, because then we would never have been "not a people" chosen for His own possession!

8) I did not say God could not choose foreseen individuals, I said scripture precludes that action!

9) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 fully supports being chosen individually during our lifetime. "From the beginning" refers to the beginning of the New Covenant in His Blood.

10) If God acknowledges those chosen are "rich in faith" that means He has credited their faith. Otherwise they would be bankrupt in faith.

11) I did not say Ephesians 1:4 says Christ was chosen. More obfuscation.

 

[Brightfame52]

1) Nothing wrong with "importing" on topic truths from other passages. Was Christ chosen before the foundation of the world? Yes. So to be "chosen in Him" means He was chosen individually, and as a consequence everyone He would redeem was chosen corporately.

2) I did not say the verse means "to be chosen." No need for obfuscation.

3) I did not make Christ the subject, rather than 'He (subject) chose (verb) us (direct object) in Him (indirect object). What I said is that when God chose Christ individually, He chose us -those redeemed - corporately. Thus "He chose us in Him."

4) The context requires that to be chosen in Him means we were chosen corporately as a consequence of Christ being chosen as redeemer. You do not choose a redeemer without a plan to redeem.

5) Yes, God's redemption plan includes that all those spiritually redeemed are then predestined to bodily redemption.

6) I did not say Ephesians 1:4 refers to "potentially chosen" people. More obfuscation.

7) Again, God could not have chosen us individually before the foundation of the world, because then we would never have been "not a people" chosen for His own possession!

8) I did not say God could not choose foreseen individuals, I said scripture precludes that action!

9) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 fully supports being chosen individually during our lifetime. "From the beginning" refers to the beginning of the New Covenant in His Blood.

10) If God acknowledges those chosen are "rich in faith" that means He has credited their faith. Otherwise they would be bankrupt in faith.

11) I did not say Ephesians 1:4 says Christ was chosen. More obfuscation.

"Van,

Your response has degenerated into a series of desperate grammatical redefinitions and unscriptural timeline fabrications. In your anxiety to protect human free will from the sovereign individual election of God, you are forcing words to mean what no Greek lexicon or biblical context in church history has ever allowed.


Let the explicit syntax of the Holy Ghost and the unyielding framework of The Five Phases of Salvation completely flatten your defenses:

1. Your Custom Definition of "From the Beginning" is a Scriptural Fabrication

To escape the crushing weight of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ('God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation'), you boldly claim that 'from the beginning' refers to the beginning of the New Covenant in His Blood' in 33 CE.

Let this completely shatter your timeline: the Greek phrase ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς (ap' archēs) when used of God's redemptive decrees is the standard biblical idiom for eternity past—before time or creation existed.

• The Apostle Paul explicitly defines his own timeline in the parallel text of Ephesians 1:4: God chose us 'before the foundation of the world.'
• 2 Timothy 1:9 states that God gave us grace in Christ Jesus 'before the world began.'

By forcing 'the beginning' to mean 33 CE, you are claiming that God didn't have an individual plan for his people until the day of the crucifixion. You have relegated the omniscient, eternal God to a temporal planner who makes up His individual election list on the fly in the middle of human history.

2. You Just Failed Basic Greek Syntax

In Point 3, you attempt to sound technical by asserting: 'He (subject) chose (verb) us (direct object) in Him (indirect object).' You have completely butchered the grammar.

In the Greek text—ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ (exelexato hēmas en autō)—the phrase 'ἐν αὐτῷ' (in Him) is not an indirect object. It is a prepositional phrase functioning as a locative of sphere.

The only direct object of God's choosing is ἡμᾶς (us). Grammatically, 'us' is a personal, plural pronoun. God did not choose an abstract, empty 'corporate plan' or a borderless 'class' of potential believers. He chose US—a specific, fixed group of individual vessels of mercy.

As John Gill masterfully notes, you cannot choose a corporate body without choosing the individual members that comprise it. An abstract
corporate election is a legal fiction; a shepherd does not choose a 'corporate flock' in the abstract without owning every individual sheep inside the pen!

3. You are Blind to the Distinction Between Eternity and Experience

In Point 7, you claim that individual eternal election is impossible because 1 Peter 2:10 describes the elect as once being 'not a people.' You are committing a massive category error by completely confusing The Eternal Phase with The Practical Phase of salvation.

• In the Court of God (The Eternal Phase): The elect were loved, known, and individually chosen in Christ before the universe was framed (Ephesians 1:4). Their names were indelibly written in the Book of Life (Revelation 13:8).
• In the Reality of History (The Practical Phase): The elect are born into this world in Adam—spiritually dead, blind, and walking in open rebellion against God (Ephesians 2:1-3). Until The Vital Phase (Regeneration) occurs in time, they are experientially 'not a people.'

Their temporal ignorance of their election does not negate God's eternal decree!

"Van,

Regarding James 2:5

Let's cut right past the distractions and face the actual text. Whether it is the ASV, AMP, ESV, or the Mounce Reverse Interlinear


, the reality remains completely unchanged: these leading scholarly translations deal a fatal blow to your performance-based merit system.
Let the explicit text of these versions and the unyielding syntax of the original Greek completely flatten your argument:

1. The Leading Translations Directly Contradict Your Timeline
You have argued that God only chose these individuals after He acknowledged and credited their pre-existing faith. You claim their faith was the cause of the election. But let’s look at how these scholarly versions actually render the text:

• Mounce Reverse Interlinear: “Did not God choose those whom the world considers poor TO BE rich in faith…”
• ESV: “…has not God chosen those who are poor in the world TO BE rich in faith…”
• ASV: “…did not God choose them that are poor as to the world TO BE rich in faith…”
• Amplified Bible: “…has not God chosen the poor of this world TO BE rich in faith…”

Look at the dry ink, Van! Every single one of these versions uses the infinitive phrase “TO BE.”
The text does not say God chose them because they were already rich in faith on their own power. The text explicitly declares that God chose them in order that they would become rich in faith! Their wealth of faith is the unalterable consequence, purpose, and fruit of God's eternal choice, not the conditional cause that triggered it.

2. The Greek Grammar Makes Your System an Absolute Impossibility

If we look at the original Greek syntax of James 2:5, your theory collapses into dust. The phrase is πλουσίους ἐν πίστει (plousious en pistei). The adjective 'rich' (plousious) is in the accusative case, functioning as a predicate accusative / object complement to the direct object 'the poor' (tous ptōchous).

In Koine Greek grammar, when an object complement is tied to a verb of choosing (exelexato), it denotes appointing or transforming the object into a new status. It translates to an absolute decree: God chose the poor to make them rich in faith.

Your performance-based system flips the Holy Spirit's grammar completely upside down. You have the object complement creating the choosing, which is a structural impossibility.

The Five-Phase Reality Defeats Your Conditional Timeline

As John Gill masterfully notes on this text, if faith were a self-generated currency that man provides to get God to elect him, salvation would ultimately depend on human works. But James places the absolute causality entirely in the sovereign hand of God:

1. The Eternal Phase: God sovereignly chooses the poor of this world before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).
2. The Vital Phase: Because they are chosen, the Holy Spirit monergistically quickens them in time, infusing the supernatural gift of faith, making them rich in faith.
3. The Final Phase: They are preserved to legally inherit the kingdom promised to them.

The Bottom Line

Faith is not a bootstrap qualification that dead sinners generate to capture God’s attention. Faith is the glorious, unalterable gold that God deposits into the hearts of His eternally chosen vessels of mercy.

You have the fruit creating the root. But the dry ink of Scripture stands unshakeable: God chose them to be rich. Quit trying to rob the Sovereign Chooser of His glory and submit to the text!"

---

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

More evasion, why not answer the actual question? Did the post say that the lost are innately able to respond affirmatively to the gospel "call?"

You are attributing a claim to me that I did not make. My reply did not address innate ability. You are connecting your own interpretation to my words and treating it as if I asserted it. I did not. My point was simple: Scripture presents the chosen as those who heed the call.

 

[Van]

You are attributing a claim to me that I did not make. My reply did not address innate ability. You are connecting your own interpretation to my words and treating it as if I asserted it. I did not. My point was simple: Scripture presents the chosen as those who heed the call.

Still no answer. You are exposed.

 

[Van]

"Van,

Your response has degenerated into a series of desperate grammatical redefinitions and unscriptural timeline fabrications. In your anxiety to protect human free will from the sovereign individual election of God, you are forcing words to mean what no Greek lexicon or biblical context in church history has ever allowed.


Let the explicit syntax of the Holy Ghost and the unyielding framework of The Five Phases of Salvation completely flatten your defenses:

1. Your Custom Definition of "From the Beginning" is a Scriptural Fabrication

To escape the crushing weight of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ('God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation'), you boldly claim that 'from the beginning' refers to the beginning of the New Covenant in His Blood' in 33 CE.

Let this completely shatter your timeline: the Greek phrase ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς (ap' archēs) when used of God's redemptive decrees is the standard biblical idiom for eternity past—before time or creation existed.

• The Apostle Paul explicitly defines his own timeline in the parallel text of Ephesians 1:4: God chose us 'before the foundation of the world.'
• 2 Timothy 1:9 states that God gave us grace in Christ Jesus 'before the world began.'

By forcing 'the beginning' to mean 33 CE, you are claiming that God didn't have an individual plan for his people until the day of the crucifixion. You have relegated the omniscient, eternal God to a temporal planner who makes up His individual election list on the fly in the middle of human history.

2. You Just Failed Basic Greek Syntax

In Point 3, you attempt to sound technical by asserting: 'He (subject) chose (verb) us (direct object) in Him (indirect object).' You have completely butchered the grammar.

In the Greek text—ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ (exelexato hēmas en autō)—the phrase 'ἐν αὐτῷ' (in Him) is not an indirect object. It is a prepositional phrase functioning as a locative of sphere.

The only direct object of God's choosing is ἡμᾶς (us). Grammatically, 'us' is a personal, plural pronoun. God did not choose an abstract, empty 'corporate plan' or a borderless 'class' of potential believers. He chose US—a specific, fixed group of individual vessels of mercy.

As John Gill masterfully notes, you cannot choose a corporate body without choosing the individual members that comprise it. An abstract
corporate election is a legal fiction; a shepherd does not choose a 'corporate flock' in the abstract without owning every individual sheep inside the pen!

3. You are Blind to the Distinction Between Eternity and Experience

In Point 7, you claim that individual eternal election is impossible because 1 Peter 2:10 describes the elect as once being 'not a people.' You are committing a massive category error by completely confusing The Eternal Phase with The Practical Phase of salvation.

• In the Court of God (The Eternal Phase): The elect were loved, known, and individually chosen in Christ before the universe was framed (Ephesians 1:4). Their names were indelibly written in the Book of Life (Revelation 13:8).
• In the Reality of History (The Practical Phase): The elect are born into this world in Adam—spiritually dead, blind, and walking in open rebellion against God (Ephesians 2:1-3). Until The Vital Phase (Regeneration) occurs in time, they are experientially 'not a people.'

Their temporal ignorance of their election does not negate God's eternal decree!

"Van,

Regarding James 2:5

Let's cut right past the distractions and face the actual text. Whether it is the ASV, AMP, ESV, or the Mounce Reverse Interlinear


, the reality remains completely unchanged: these leading scholarly translations deal a fatal blow to your performance-based merit system.
Let the explicit text of these versions and the unyielding syntax of the original Greek completely flatten your argument:

1. The Leading Translations Directly Contradict Your Timeline
You have argued that God only chose these individuals after He acknowledged and credited their pre-existing faith. You claim their faith was the cause of the election. But let’s look at how these scholarly versions actually render the text:

• Mounce Reverse Interlinear: “Did not God choose those whom the world considers poor TO BE rich in faith…”
• ESV: “…has not God chosen those who are poor in the world TO BE rich in faith…”
• ASV: “…did not God choose them that are poor as to the world TO BE rich in faith…”
• Amplified Bible: “…has not God chosen the poor of this world TO BE rich in faith…”

Look at the dry ink, Van! Every single one of these versions uses the infinitive phrase “TO BE.”
The text does not say God chose them because they were already rich in faith on their own power. The text explicitly declares that God chose them in order that they would become rich in faith! Their wealth of faith is the unalterable consequence, purpose, and fruit of God's eternal choice, not the conditional cause that triggered it.

2. The Greek Grammar Makes Your System an Absolute Impossibility

If we look at the original Greek syntax of James 2:5, your theory collapses into dust. The phrase is πλουσίους ἐν πίστει (plousious en pistei). The adjective 'rich' (plousious) is in the accusative case, functioning as a predicate accusative / object complement to the direct object 'the poor' (tous ptōchous).

In Koine Greek grammar, when an object complement is tied to a verb of choosing (exelexato), it denotes appointing or transforming the object into a new status. It translates to an absolute decree: God chose the poor to make them rich in faith.

Your performance-based system flips the Holy Spirit's grammar completely upside down. You have the object complement creating the choosing, which is a structural impossibility.

The Five-Phase Reality Defeats Your Conditional Timeline

As John Gill masterfully notes on this text, if faith were a self-generated currency that man provides to get God to elect him, salvation would ultimately depend on human works. But James places the absolute causality entirely in the sovereign hand of God:

1. The Eternal Phase: God sovereignly chooses the poor of this world before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).
2. The Vital Phase: Because they are chosen, the Holy Spirit monergistically quickens them in time, infusing the supernatural gift of faith, making them rich in faith.
3. The Final Phase: They are preserved to legally inherit the kingdom promised to them.

The Bottom Line

Faith is not a bootstrap qualification that dead sinners generate to capture God’s attention. Faith is the glorious, unalterable gold that God deposits into the hearts of His eternally chosen vessels of mercy.

You have the fruit creating the root. But the dry ink of Scripture stands unshakeable: God chose them to be rich. Quit trying to rob the Sovereign Chooser of His glory and submit to the text!"

---

1) My grammar is correct. Your claim is simply another "against the man" fallacy.

2) Your invalid claim, from the beginning not meaning from the beginning of the New Covenant, has no basis in scripture. That exact phrase is used in several ways.

3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 crushes your doctrine, not mine. So you reverse the charge. God had chosen Paul's audience from the beginning of the New Covenant for salvation.

4) Your claim of a "standard idiom" is a complete fabrication. And before the foundation refers to an entirely different period than since the foundation of the world.

5) "This is further seen in the Greek underlying the phrase “in him”. “ἐν αὐτῷ” (in him) is tied to “ἐξελέξατο” (he chose) and tells us something about the context of how this choosing occurs. Because “αὐτῷ” is in the dative case, it serves as the indirect object and suggests the sphere and the means by which God’s choice occurs. “ἡμᾶς” (us) serves as the direct object and means that we (the Elect) are the ones chosen." [quote from a Calvinist source]

6) I already posted God's redemption plan was formulated "before the foundation of the world" since that is when He chose "the Lamb of God."

7) James 2:5 does not say, nor imply "to be rich in faith." Again, that claim is another complete fabrication. The 'to be" phrase has been inserted into the text to completely reverse its actual meaning. We know God credits the faith of some as righteousness, rather than instilling faith in some.

8) Did anyone say a lost person can qualify for salvation by coming to faith? Nope, as all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. Did Peter love Jesus with agape (self sacrificing) love? Nope. Jesus accepted him as he was, with phileo love for Jesus. When and if God credits a lost person's faith as righteousness, it is a gracious gift. Salvation is 100% of the LORD.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Still no answer. You are exposed.

When a person cannot engage the content, they switch to the only move they have left, declaring victory by assumption. I answered the question you asked. You are insisting that I made a claim I did not make. I will not defend statements I did not write. My point remains the same. Scripture presents the chosen as those who heed the call.

 

[Brightfame52]

1) My grammar is correct. Your claim is simply another "against the man" fallacy.

2) Your invalid claim, from the beginning not meaning from the beginning of the New Covenant, has no basis in scripture. That exact phrase is used in several ways.

3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 crushes your doctrine, not mine. So you reverse the charge. God had chosen Paul's audience from the beginning of the New Covenant for salvation.

4) Your claim of a "standard idiom" is a complete fabrication. And before the foundation refers to an entirely different period than since the foundation of the world.

5) "This is further seen in the Greek underlying the phrase “in him”. “ἐν αὐτῷ” (in him) is tied to “ἐξελέξατο” (he chose) and tells us something about the context of how this choosing occurs. Because “αὐτῷ” is in the dative case, it serves as the indirect object and suggests the sphere and the means by which God’s choice occurs. “ἡμᾶς” (us) serves as the direct object and means that we (the Elect) are the ones chosen." [quote from a Calvinist source]

6) I already posted God's redemption plan was formulated "before the foundation of the world" since that is when He chose "the Lamb of God."

7) James 2:5 does not say, nor imply "to be rich in faith." Again, that claim is another complete fabrication. The 'to be" phrase has been inserted into the text to completely reverse its actual meaning. We know God credits the faith of some as righteousness, rather than instilling faith in some.

8) Did anyone say a lost person can qualify for salvation by coming to faith? Nope, as all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. Did Peter love Jesus with agape (self sacrificing) love? Nope. Jesus accepted him as he was, with phileo love for Jesus. When and if God credits a lost person's faith as righteousness, it is a gracious gift. Salvation is 100% of the LORD.

Van, you've actually clarified the issues, but several of your objections depend upon claims that the texts themselves do not make.

1. Ephesians 1:4

I never claimed that “in Him” was irrelevant. I said it is a prepositional phrase, not an indirect object. The Greek is:

ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ

“He chose us in Him.”

ἡμᾶς (“us”) is the direct object of ἐξελέξατο (“chose”). ἐν αὐτῷ (“in Him”) is a prepositional phrase describing the sphere/relationship in which the choosing occurs.

Your own quoted Calvinist source actually agrees with the essential point: “ἡμᾶς serves as the direct object and means that we (the Elect) are the ones chosen.”

The grammar itself does not say, “God first chose Christ individually, and then chose a corporate class whose individual members would subsequently become elect.” That is a theological model you are bringing to the text.

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

I will qualify my earlier statement: I am not claiming that ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς (“from the beginning”) has one fixed meaning in every passage.

The point is much simpler.

Paul says:

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

Where does Paul say “from the beginning of the New Covenant”?

He doesn't.

You are supplying “of the New Covenant” to the phrase “from the beginning.” Therefore you have to establish that interpretation from the context rather than merely asserting it.

And notice what Paul actually says God chose them to:

“to salvation.”

The sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth describe the means/process through which that salvation is realized; they do not establish that God waited until A.D. 33 to decide who would be saved.

Ephesians 1:4 independently tells us that God chose His people “before the foundation of the world,” and 2 Timothy 1:9 says grace was given us in Christ Jesus “before the world began.”

So your New-Covenant-beginning interpretation cannot simply be inserted into 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and treated as though Paul stated it.

3. James 2:5

Here I will also correct one thing in my previous wording: I did not mean that the Greek contains a literal infinitive “to be.” It does not.

The Greek says:

“God hath chosen the poor of this world πλουσίους ἐν πίστει — rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom.”

The English “to be” in translations such as the ESV/ASV is supplied to express the understood relationship in English. It does not reverse the Greek order.

And the crucial point remains:

God chose them → they are rich in faith → they are heirs of the kingdom.

James does NOT say:

“God chose them because He first discovered that they were rich in faith.”

Nor does James say:

“God credited their pre-existing faith and therefore chose them.”

You are importing the doctrine of faith being counted for righteousness from Romans 4 into James 2:5 and then making that imported doctrine the explanation for God's choice. But James 2:5 itself never says that.

Romans 4:5–8 teaches that faith is counted for righteousness. Fine. But that does not prove that foreseen faith was the cause of God's eternal election.

Those are two completely different propositions.

And notice the irony: you accuse me of inserting “to be,” while you are inserting an entire causal sequence that James never states:

your proposed sequence:

God recognizes/credits faith → God chooses.

what James actually says:

God chooses → rich in faith → heirs of the kingdom.

You cannot make the second sequence say the first merely by importing Romans 4 into it.

4. “Salvation is 100% of the LORD”

We agree on that statement, but we disagree about what it means.

If salvation is truly of the LORD, then the decisive distinction between the believer and unbeliever cannot finally terminate in something independently supplied by the sinner.

The sinner believes. Absolutely.

But Scripture says:

“it is given unto you... to believe” (Phil. 1:29).

The sinner repents. Absolutely.

But Christ is exalted “for to give repentance” (Acts 5:31).

The sinner comes.

But Christ says:

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44).

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.(John 6:37)

So I am not denying man's response. I am denying that man's response is the ultimate explanation for why one sinner becomes a believer while another remains in unbelief.

That distinction is fundamental.

You have repeatedly said that salvation is 100% of the LORD. I am simply asking you to let Scripture explain what that means.

 

[Van]

Van, you've actually clarified the issues, but several of your objections depend upon claims that the texts themselves do not make.

1. Ephesians 1:4

I never claimed that “in Him” was irrelevant. I said it is a prepositional phrase, not an indirect object. The Greek is:

ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ

“He chose us in Him.”

ἡμᾶς (“us”) is the direct object of ἐξελέξατο (“chose”). ἐν αὐτῷ (“in Him”) is a prepositional phrase describing the sphere/relationship in which the choosing occurs.

Your own quoted Calvinist source actually agrees with the essential point: “ἡμᾶς serves as the direct object and means that we (the Elect) are the ones chosen.”

The grammar itself does not say, “God first chose Christ individually, and then chose a corporate class whose individual members would subsequently become elect.” That is a theological model you are bringing to the text.

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

I will qualify my earlier statement: I am not claiming that ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς (“from the beginning”) has one fixed meaning in every passage.

The point is much simpler.

Paul says:

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

Where does Paul say “from the beginning of the New Covenant”?

He doesn't.

You are supplying “of the New Covenant” to the phrase “from the beginning.” Therefore you have to establish that interpretation from the context rather than merely asserting it.

And notice what Paul actually says God chose them to:

“to salvation.”

The sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth describe the means/process through which that salvation is realized; they do not establish that God waited until A.D. 33 to decide who would be saved.

Ephesians 1:4 independently tells us that God chose His people “before the foundation of the world,” and 2 Timothy 1:9 says grace was given us in Christ Jesus “before the world began.”

So your New-Covenant-beginning interpretation cannot simply be inserted into 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and treated as though Paul stated it.

3. James 2:5

Here I will also correct one thing in my previous wording: I did not mean that the Greek contains a literal infinitive “to be.” It does not.

The Greek says:

“God hath chosen the poor of this world πλουσίους ἐν πίστει — rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom.”

The English “to be” in translations such as the ESV/ASV is supplied to express the understood relationship in English. It does not reverse the Greek order.

And the crucial point remains:

God chose them → they are rich in faith → they are heirs of the kingdom.

James does NOT say:

“God chose them because He first discovered that they were rich in faith.”

Nor does James say:

“God credited their pre-existing faith and therefore chose them.”

You are importing the doctrine of faith being counted for righteousness from Romans 4 into James 2:5 and then making that imported doctrine the explanation for God's choice. But James 2:5 itself never says that.

Romans 4:5–8 teaches that faith is counted for righteousness. Fine. But that does not prove that foreseen faith was the cause of God's eternal election.

Those are two completely different propositions.

And notice the irony: you accuse me of inserting “to be,” while you are inserting an entire causal sequence that James never states:

your proposed sequence:

God recognizes/credits faith → God chooses.

what James actually says:

God chooses → rich in faith → heirs of the kingdom.

You cannot make the second sequence say the first merely by importing Romans 4 into it.

4. “Salvation is 100% of the LORD”

We agree on that statement, but we disagree about what it means.

If salvation is truly of the LORD, then the decisive distinction between the believer and unbeliever cannot finally terminate in something independently supplied by the sinner.

The sinner believes. Absolutely.

But Scripture says:

“it is given unto you... to believe” (Phil. 1:29).

The sinner repents. Absolutely.

But Christ is exalted “for to give repentance” (Acts 5:31).

The sinner comes.

But Christ says:

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44).

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.(John 6:37)

So I am not denying man's response. I am denying that man's response is the ultimate explanation for why one sinner becomes a believer while another remains in unbelief.

That distinction is fundamental.

You have repeatedly said that salvation is 100% of the LORD. I am simply asking you to let Scripture explain what that means.

1) Your claim that "in Him" is not the indirect object of the verb "chose" was and is invalid.

2) I did not say you said "in Him" was irrelevant. More obfuscation, more misdirection.

3) The quote fully supports all my statements, and proves your claims were fiction.

4) You suggested "from the beginning" referred to before the foundation of the world. That is a false claim. All the people chosen were chosen according to the New Covenant in His Blood. Full Stop. "of the New Covenant" is simply clarifying the to which "beginning" the verse refers. It is commentary, not an addition to scripture, any more than claiming "from the beginning of creation."

5) The verse does NOT read "to salvation." That is just a poor translation choice. For salvation provides the actual meaning. Note the translation choice of the NKJV, NASB, CSB, and NET.

6) No one said the insertion of "to be" in James 2:5 reverses "the Greek order." I said it reversed the meaning of the verse. God chose people rich in faith, not God chose people without faith, but would be transformed supernaturally to have faith.

7) No one said God discovered they were rich in faith. Please stop making up false claims to hide your false doctrine.

8) From Romans 4, God provides benefit to those whose faith He credits as righteousness. From James 2, God chooses those "rich in faith." For you to deny only those with credited faith are rich in faith is absurd. To be rich in faith in God's eyes requires that He credits the faith as righteousness.

9) Good Grief - I did not say the faith God credits is foreseen. What kind of mumbo jumbo are you spewing?