Chosen In Him, Ephesians 1:4

[kyredneck]

Your interpretation does not follow the text, and the exegesis you are using is not sound.

It’s called Vanology.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Only a blithering idiot would claim God chose His Redeemer without a plan to redeem.

I had to laugh. You start with “mind boggling,” “complete ignorance,” “blithering idiot,” and “taint so,” then claim to be doing objective exegesis. You're not reasoning, just performing. Priceless!

Your move from “God chose the Redeemer” to “therefore He corporately chose those the Redeemer might redeem” is pure inference, not text. Ephesians 1:4 does not say “He chose Christ and thereby corporately chose a potential people.” It says, “He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.”

Calling that chain of inference “the word of God” is the real problem. You have elevated your construction to the level of Scripture and then declared dissent to be rebellion against the text.

Your interpretation does not follow the text, and the exegesis you are using is not sound.

 

[Brightfame52]

Chosen in Him is not some difficult or obscure New Testament phrase. False Teachers spewing false doctrine are guilty of presenting many differing meanings, as if the meaning is not obvious.

The first issue is this: Does the phrase refer to being chosen individually as foreseen individuals, or being chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan? And the answer is just as simple. Scripture precludes being chosen individually before the foundation of the world, because once we existed as "not a people" chosen for God's own possession. Read 1 Peter 2:9-10!

Pay no attention to the tremendous volume of of fabricated false verbiage being spewed to hide the truth of scripture.

Van,

Your attempt to escape the sovereign weight of election by retreating into "corporate election theory" is a total grammatical and logical failure. By claiming that God didn't choose specific, named individuals before time, but rather just chose a blank "target group," you have stripped God of His omniscience and turned salvation into an empty shell waiting for man's free will to fill it.


Let the unyielding ink of Peter's own letters completely flatten your theory:

1. Peter Addresses Individuals as Elect, Not a Blank Concept

You command us to read 1 Peter 2:9-10 to prove corporate election, but you are completely blind to how Peter opens his letter. Look at who he is addressing:

• “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father...” (1 Peter 1:1-2)

Peter does not address an abstract, empty "corporate target group." He addresses individual, flesh-and-blood people scattered across specific geographic cities. He tells these specific, distinct individuals that they are “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” You cannot scatter an abstract corporate concept across Galatia and Asia; you scatter individual human beings.

2. You are Confusing Eternity Past with Temporal Manifestation

You claim that because 1 Peter 2:10 says the elect were once “not a people,” individual eternal election is precluded. You are completely confusing The Eternal Phase (Phase I) of salvation with The Vital Phase (Phase III).

In eternity past, the elect were individually chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and their names were indelibly written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 13:8). However, when they are born into this world in Adam, they live for a time in natural rebellion, spiritually dead, and historically manifested as “not a people.”

When the Holy Ghost sovereignly quickens them in The Vital Phase (Regeneration), He calls them out of that darkness and makes them a people in open, public possession. Peter is describing their experiential conversion in time, not denying God's sovereign choice in eternity. To suggest God didn't know who they were until Phase III is to deny divine omniscience.

3. The Absurdity of an Empty "Target Group"

Think about the sheer logical breakdown of your position. You want a "corporate group" chosen in Christ, but no individuals chosen. Van, a "group" does not exist apart from the individuals who make it up!

If God chose a "body," He chose the specific members of that body. If He chose a "bride," He chose the specific person who comprises that bride. If He chose a "target group" but left it up to human free will to decide who enters that group, then man is the ultimate author of his own election, not God.

Scripture completely shuts the door on your theory. God didn't choose a generic category; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). Stop trying to fabricate false definitions to protect your conditional theology, and face the plain, unyielding ink of 1 Peter 1:1-2!

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[Van]

It’s called Vanology.

Its called name calling, but the correct term in biblical truth.

I had to laugh. You start with “mind boggling,” “complete ignorance,” “blithering idiot,” and “taint so,” then claim to be doing objective exegesis. You're not reasoning, just performing. Priceless!

Your move from “God chose the Redeemer” to “therefore He corporately chose those the Redeemer might redeem” is pure inference, not text. Ephesians 1:4 does not say “He chose Christ and thereby corporately chose a potential people.” It says, “He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.”

Calling that chain of inference “the word of God” is the real problem. You have elevated your construction to the level of Scripture and then declared dissent to be rebellion against the text.

Your interpretation does not follow the text, and the exegesis you are using is not sound.

More nonsense. I showed by the Ephesians 1:4 election must be corporate. You post another taint so.

Understanding Ephesians 1:4 in light of 1 Peter 2:9-10 is not a "chain of inference" but a logical necessity.

 

[Van]

Van,

Your attempt to escape the sovereign weight of election by retreating into "corporate election theory" is a total grammatical and logical failure. By claiming that God didn't choose specific, named individuals before time, but rather just chose a blank "target group," you have stripped God of His omniscience and turned salvation into an empty shell waiting for man's free will to fill it.

SNIP

ose a "target group" but left it up to human free will to decide who enters that group, then man is the ultimate author of his own election, not God.

Scripture completely shuts the door on your theory. God didn't choose a generic category; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). Stop trying to fabricate false definitions to protect your conditional theology, and face the plain, unyielding ink of 1 Peter 1:1-2!

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More mindless verbiage saying taint so. This poster seems to not even know of the corporate elections found in scripture. Nuff said.

Then the lie. The human free will, does not decide who enters the redeemed group of individuals. No one should be that ignorant of Romans 9:16.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

More nonsense. I showed by the Ephesians 1:4 election must be corporate. You post another taint so.

Understanding Ephesians 1:4 in light of 1 Peter 2:9-10 is not a "chain of inference" but a logical necessity

You keep asserting that Ephesians 1:4 “must be corporate,” but repeating “logical necessity” doesn’t turn your inference into exegesis.

Ephesians 1:4 says:

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…”

The subject is “He,” the verb is “chose,” and the direct object is “us.” The phrase “in him” is the sphere or location of that choice, not a replacement for the object. The text does not say, “He chose Christ, and thereby corporately chose a potential people.” That’s your construction, not Paul’s wording.

Appealing to 1 Peter 2:9–10 doesn’t change that. Peter is describing a once-not-a-people / now-people reality, but that corporate description does not logically require that every use of “chosen” elsewhere be reduced to a purely corporate, non-individual sense. You’re importing a system into the text and then calling the result “logical necessity.”

The issue isn’t whether you can build a corporate-election model. The issue is whether Ephesians 1:4 states what you’re claiming. It doesn’t. You’ve elevated your theological synthesis to the level of the verse itself and then treated disagreement as “nonsense.”

I’m not denying that God has a people. I’m denying that your corporate-only reading is demanded by the grammar of Ephesians 1:4. If you want to defend your view, do it by showing how the syntax requires it, not by labeling dissent as ignorance and then baptizing your inferences as “the word of God.”

Your interpretation does not follow the text, and the exegesis you are using is not sound.

 

[Brightfame52]

SNIP


More mindless verbiage saying taint so. This poster seems to not even know of the corporate elections found in scripture. Nuff said.

Then the lie. The human free will, does not decide who enters the redeemed group of individuals. No one should be that ignorant of Romans 9:16.

Van,

Thank you for completely assassinating your own corporate election theory. In your scramble to insult me, you walked directly into a catastrophic logical trap and conceded the entire high Calvinist position.


Let’s look at the absolute breakdown of your own words:

1. You Just Destroyed Corporate Election

You write: “The human free will, does not decide who enters the redeemed group of individuals. No one should be that ignorant of Romans 9:16.”
Think through the inescapable logic of your own statement. You claim that God only chose a blank, abstract “corporate target group” before time. But you now explicitly admit that human free will does not decide which individuals get into that group.

If human free will doesn’t decide which specific individuals enter the redeemed group, then who decides?

There are only two options: either man’s will decides, or God’s will decides. Since you just quoted Romans 9:16 to correctly state that it is not of him that willeth, then God’s sovereign will alone decides exactly which individuals enter the redeemed group.

If God is the one who decides which specific individuals enter salvation, entirely apart from their own will or running, then that is individual, unconditional, sovereign election. You have completely surrendered your corporate theory. You cannot have a blank "target group" if God is the one sovereignly choosing and placing every single individual into it by His own independent mercy!

2. Romans 9:16 is My Foundation, Not Yours

You accuse me of being ignorant of Romans 9:16, but that verse is the absolute bedrock of Phase I (The Eternal Phase) of the high Calvinist system.

Look at the context of the chapter you just cited. Paul is not talking about an abstract corporate cloud. He is talking about specific individuals—Jacob and Esau. He explicitly states that before the children were even born, or had done any good or evil, God sovereignly chose Jacob and rejected Esau. Why? “That the purpose of God according to election might stand” (Romans 9:11).

When Paul concludes in verse 16 that it is “not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy,” he is locking the door against human cooperation. Salvation is entirely monergistic.

The Verdict

You completely ran away from 1 Peter 1:1-2, because you cannot explain how Peter addresses individual strangers scattered across cities as being elect. And in your attempt to dodge that point, you quoted Romans 9:16 and accidentally admitted that God sovereignly determines which individuals are saved without any help from human free will.

Thank you for admitting that human free will has zero power to enter the redeemed body. You are now officially speaking the language of a sovereign grace Calvinist. Drop the corporate smoke screen, submit to the rest of Romans 9, and give all the glory to the Sovereign Potter!

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[Van]

You keep asserting that Ephesians 1:4 “must be corporate,” but repeating “logical necessity” doesn’t turn your inference into exegesis.

Ephesians 1:4 says:

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…”

The subject is “He,” the verb is “chose,” and the direct object is “us.” The phrase “in him” is the sphere or location of that choice, not a replacement for the object. The text does not say, “He chose Christ, and thereby corporately chose a potential people.” That’s your construction, not Paul’s wording.

Appealing to 1 Peter 2:9–10 doesn’t change that. Peter is describing a once-not-a-people / now-people reality, but that corporate description does not logically require that every use of “chosen” elsewhere be reduced to a purely corporate, non-individual sense. You’re importing a system into the text and then calling the result “logical necessity.”

The issue isn’t whether you can build a corporate-election model. The issue is whether Ephesians 1:4 states what you’re claiming. It doesn’t. You’ve elevated your theological synthesis to the level of the verse itself and then treated disagreement as “nonsense.”

I’m not denying that God has a people. I’m denying that your corporate-only reading is demanded by the grammar of Ephesians 1:4. If you want to defend your view, do it by showing how the syntax requires it, not by labeling dissent as ignorance and then baptizing your inferences as “the word of God.”

Your interpretation does not follow the text, and the exegesis you are using is not sound.

Just another taint so post offering nothing but denial of the obvious.

You offer the indirect object does not replace the direct object. No one said it did. Thus obfuscation!

The meaning of He chose us in Him is not a "construction of the text" but an interpretation of the text based on 1 Peter 2:9-10, and 1 Peter 1:20.

Lastly, demonstrating complete ignorance, you claim 1 Peter 2:9-10 is referring to our corporate election before the foundation of the world. Good Grief

 

[Van]

Van,

Thank you for completely assassinating your own corporate election theory. In your scramble to insult me, you walked directly into a catastrophic logical trap and conceded the entire high Calvinist position.


Let’s look at the absolute breakdown of your own words:

1. You Just Destroyed Corporate Election

You write: “The human free will, does not decide who enters the redeemed group of individuals. No one should be that ignorant of Romans 9:16.”
Think through the inescapable logic of your own statement. You claim that God only chose a blank, abstract “corporate target group” before time. But you now explicitly admit that human free will does not decide which individuals get into that group.

If human free will doesn’t decide which specific individuals enter the redeemed group, then who decides?

There are only two options: either man’s will decides, or God’s will decides. Since you just quoted Romans 9:16 to correctly state that it is not of him that willeth, then God’s sovereign will alone decides exactly which individuals enter the redeemed group.

If God is the one who decides which specific individuals enter salvation, entirely apart from their own will or running, then that is individual, unconditional, sovereign election. You have completely surrendered your corporate theory. You cannot have a blank "target group" if God is the one sovereignly choosing and placing every single individual into it by His own independent mercy!

2. Romans 9:16 is My Foundation, Not Yours

You accuse me of being ignorant of Romans 9:16, but that verse is the absolute bedrock of Phase I (The Eternal Phase) of the high Calvinist system.

Look at the context of the chapter you just cited. Paul is not talking about an abstract corporate cloud. He is talking about specific individuals—Jacob and Esau. He explicitly states that before the children were even born, or had done any good or evil, God sovereignly chose Jacob and rejected Esau. Why? “That the purpose of God according to election might stand” (Romans 9:11).

When Paul concludes in verse 16 that it is “not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy,” he is locking the door against human cooperation. Salvation is entirely monergistic.

The Verdict

You completely ran away from 1 Peter 1:1-2, because you cannot explain how Peter addresses individual strangers scattered across cities as being elect. And in your attempt to dodge that point, you quoted Romans 9:16 and accidentally admitted that God sovereignly determines which individuals are saved without any help from human free will.

Thank you for admitting that human free will has zero power to enter the redeemed body. You are now officially speaking the language of a sovereign grace Calvinist. Drop the corporate smoke screen, submit to the rest of Romans 9, and give all the glory to the Sovereign Potter!

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What complete nonsense.

Our corporate election before the foundation of the would does NOT suggest we were not individually chosen (elected) for salvation during our lifetime.

Then you ask who decides who is saved! This after supposedly reading Romans 9:16.

I am done wasting my time.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Just another taint so post offering nothing but denial of the obvious.

You’re attacking claims I didn’t make. I never said 1 Peter 2:9–10 teaches corporate election before the foundation of the world; I said it doesn’t require us to reduce Ephesians 1:4 to a corporate‑only reading. My point was grammatical, subject, verb, direct object, “in him” as sphere, not “taint” or “obfuscation.” If you want to defend your view, do it from the syntax of Ephesians 1:4, not by misquoting me and declaring “obviousness.”

Your interpretation does not follow the text, and the exegesis you are using is not sound.

 

[Brightfame52]

What complete nonsense.

Our corporate election before the foundation of the would does NOT suggest we were not individually chosen (elected) for salvation during our lifetime.

Then you ask who decides who is saved! This after supposedly reading Romans 9:16.

I am done wasting my time.

Van, running away and calling the text "nonsense" will not save you from the trap you built for yourself. You are walking out because your own words have completely fractured your theological system.

Look at the massive contradiction you just posted to this thread:

1. You Just Invented a New Theology to Save Face

You now claim: “Our corporate election before the foundation of the world does NOT suggest we were not individually chosen (elected) for salvation during our lifetime.”

Van, do you even know what Corporate Election is? The entire purpose of the corporate election theory is to deny that God chooses specific individuals for salvation. It teaches that God only chose a generic "class" or "container," and that individuals enter that container by their own act of faith.

The moment you admit that God individually chooses who enters that group, you have abandoned Arminian/Corporate theology completely. You are now admitting that the population of the redeemed is determined by individual, sovereign choice, not a corporate blank check.

2. You Still Can't Escape Romans 9:16

You ask how I can ask "who decides" after reading Romans 9:16. That is precisely my point! Romans 9:16 answers it definitively: God decides. It is "not of him that willeth... but of God that showeth mercy."

If God is the one who decides, and if human free will has zero say in who enters the redeemed body, then salvation is entirely unconditional and individual. God doesn't look down at a crowd of dead sinners and wait for them to choose to enter a corporate group; the Holy Spirit sovereignly, directly quickens His elect individuals [Jn 5:25], planting His fear in their hearts, and bringing them into the body of Christ.

3. You are Fleeing Because the Text Boxed You In

You didn't answer 1 Peter 1:1-2, where Peter names specific individuals as elect according to the foreknowledge of God. You couldn't explain Romans 9:11-13, where Jacob and Esau are individually chosen and rejected before they were even born.

You can say you are "done wasting your time," but the reality is that you are running away because you accidentally argued yourself into a corner. You tried to use Romans 9:16 to insult me, and in doing so, you accidentally confessed that God's sovereign will—not man's free will—determines exactly who gets saved.

You can walk away from the keyboard, Van, but you can't walk away from the fact that your own response surrendered the entire debate to Sovereign Grace.