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The King James Translation

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
In their preface to the 1611, the KJV translators themselves referred to Richard Bancroft as the "chief overseer and task-master under his Majesty, to whom were not only we, but also our whole Church, much bound."
The preface line about being ‘much bound’ to Bancroft shows obligation, but it still doesn’t amount to a translator explicitly saying he was pressured to alter doctrine. My original question was for a clear statement from a translator himself to that effect.
You did not provide primary sources for several of your own assertions so you do not practice what you preach.
If you believe I’ve made assertions without primary sources, please quote the specific statements you’re referring to so we can look at them directly. Besides, I did include the sources with the article,
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I don’t dispute that others contributed or that Beza’s text was used, I said as much in the article. My point was simply about the officially named translators and the structure of the companies, which is what the historical record actually lists. Also, if the commissioning letter is the basis for the goals you mentioned, could you quote the specific lines that state them?
I have my notes, but am not going to hop on a plane to Europe or search the internet to give you exact quotes. These guidelines are fairly well known.

King James sought to create a Bible to mend the fracturing Church of England. The KJV was an outreach to the Calvinists (a group Boncroft himself despised).

To me it is not important. Every translation has issues. But God's Word transcends these issues. I do not believe you will find God's words using your methodology. So to me, this is not an important topic.

That said, to help you on your journey, start with the Hampton Court Conference and go forward. The letter was written in July 1604. You will find the letter if you persevere.
 

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
I have my notes, but am not going to hop on a plane to Europe or search the internet to give you exact quotes. These guidelines are fairly well known.
Well, I’m not asking you to fly to Europe, just to quote the specific lines from the commissioning letter that support the goals you listed. Without the actual wording, the claims remain interpretive rather than documented.
 

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
So why do you not consider this KJO?
I do not consider that KJO because I have never said the KJV is the only Bible God preserved. I said it is one that stands within the preserved stream. That is not an exclusive claim. My position is about the underlying texts and the translation method, not about elevating one English Bible above all others in every language. The preserved text was translated into several languages, and the early English Bibles stand within that same stream. That is why I speak of the KJV as one within it, not the only one.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
William Tyndale had translated some 85 years before the KJV was printed and much of Tyndale's pioneering work went into the KJV. Without William Tyndale there is no KJV. The reason the KJV New Testament is so good is because of William Tyndale.

Nor is the KJV purely Byzantine. It has some mixture from Alexandrian and the Latin Vulgate/Rheims Bible. It is very good, but not perfectly preserved.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
William Tyndale had translated some 85 years before the KJV was printed and much of Tyndale's pioneering work went into the KJV. Without William Tyndale there is no KJV. The reason the KJV New Testament is so good is because of William Tyndale.

Nor is the KJV purely Byzantine. It has some mixture from Alexandrian and the Latin Vulgate/Rheims Bible. It is very good, but not perfectly preserved.
They pulled "Lucifer" from the Vulgate, and we see the confusion that came from that faux pas.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
The Majority Text Compared to the Received Text


From the website

The Majority Text Compared to the Received Text​

Here I give in English all translatable differences between the Hodges-Farstad "Majority Text" and the editon of the Received text compiled by F.H.A. Scrivener (representing the readings followed in the King James version). For each item I also indicate which other editors have preferred the "Majority Text" reading over the Received Text. See this page for an explanation of the abbreviations. —M.D.M

Mat 3:8. Read "fruit" instead of "fruits". G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.

Mat 3:11. Omit "and [with] fire" after "Holy Ghost". HF.

Mat 4:10. Add "behind me" after "hence". G Lt W HF.

Mat 4:18. Omit "Jesus" and render 'he saw'. G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.

Mat 5:27. Omit "by them of old time" after "said". G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I don’t dispute that others contributed or that Beza’s text was used, I said as much in the article. My point was simply about the officially named translators and the structure of the companies, which is what the historical record actually lists. Also, if the commissioning letter is the basis for the goals you mentioned, could you quote the specific lines that state them?
May I remind you that when I asked you for an original quotation showing that Lollards were Credobaptists, you declined to give me one but fobbed me off with an impenitrable book dating hundreds of years later, in which I still haven't found the evidence that you asserted.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I do not consider that KJO because I have never said the KJV is the only Bible God preserved. I said it is one that stands within the preserved stream. That is not an exclusive claim. My position is about the underlying texts and the translation method, not about elevating one English Bible above all others in every language. The preserved text was translated into several languages, and the early English Bibles stand within that same stream. That is why I speak of the KJV as one within it, not the only one.
KJV-only advocates accept and put the pre-1611 English Bibles of which the KJV is a revision in the same stream of Bibles so you are not at all distinguishing your view from a KJV-only view. As clearly explained before, the term KJV-only refers to a view about English Bible translations, not translations in other languages. The truth concerning what constitutes a KJV-only view reveals that your view is KJV-only regardless of whether you accept the truth.

Your very own statements reveal that you are elevating one English Bible translation in 1611 above all post-1611 English Bibles. English Bible translations such as the 1833 Webster’s Bible which was reprinted in 1987, the 1842 revision of the KJV by Baptists, the 1962 Teen-age Version of the Holy Bible by Jay Green, the 1982 NKJV, the 1986 Literal Translation in The Interlinear Bible, the 1990 Modern King James Version, the 1994 21st Century King James Version, the 1998 Third Millennium Bible, the King James 2000 Version, 2000/2013 Jubilee Bible, 2006 New Authorized Version—AV7 NT, the 2010 KJ3 Literal Translation, the 2014 Modern English Version, the 2022 Simplified KJV, Nick Sayers’ 2023 King James Version New Testament, and the 2024 edition of the Modern English Bible should be placed in the same stream of preserved text Bibles.

There are far greater or more significant textual differences between the 1539 Great Bible, which is included in the stream of preserved text Bibles, and the 1611 KJV than there are between the KJV and those post-1611 English Bibles listed above that are inconsistently and unjustly excluded from this stream.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Gustavus Paine’s The Men Behind the King James Bible,
Gustavus Paine maintained that Miles Smith, final editor of the KJV with Thomas Bilson, “protested that after Bilson and he had finished their editing, Bishop Bancroft made fourteen more changes.” He gave as an example Bancroft's insistence on using "the glorious word bishopric even for Judas in Acts 1:20" (Men Behind the KJV, p. 128). Gustavus Paine added: “The fact that Smith was the one to protest Bancroft’s amendments suggests that he stood against both Bilson and Bancroft in such matters as the importance of bishoprics” (Ibid.).

Concerning the fourteen changes, Benson Bobrick asserted: “One of them was to insist on that ‘glorious word Bishopric’ for the titular authority of Judas in Acts 1:20” (Wide as the Waters, p. 248). David Teems wrote: “Because an argument followed between Smith and Bancroft, the Translators’ draft obviously read ‘And his charge’ (Geneva Bible) and not bishopricke” (Majestie, p. 232).

In 1677, Edward Whiston asserted that “many of those in King James’ time (had they been as well conscientious in point of fidelity and godliness, as they were furnished with abilities, they) would not have moulded it to their own Episcopal notion rendering episkope, (the office of oversight) by the term Bishoprick Acts 1:20 as they do in 14 places more” (Life and Death of Henry Jessey, p. 44). Acts 1:20 quotes Psalm 109:8: "let another take his office" which was translated in the Geneva Bible in Acts 1:20 as "let another take his charge." Although it is not in many current KJV's, the 1611 KJV did have the following note in the margin indicating other acceptable words: "Or, office: or charge." In 1648, Thomas Hill suggested that this change was made “that you may believe that the Bishops are the Apostles successors” (Six Sermons, p. 24).

In 1593, Bishop Thomas Bilson, who would be co-editor of the 1611, had quoted Acts 1:20 as “his bishopric let another take” and had used this verse as his basis for his question “will you grant, that an apostle doth not differ from a bishop” (Perpetual Government, p. 291). Thomas Bilson contended that “Peter himself calleth the apostleship ‘a bishopship’” with the reference Acts 1:20 (p. 296). Thus, Thomas Bilson used the rendering “bishopric” at Acts 1:20 as part of his arguments for the divine origin of episcopacy and for apostolic succession. Thomas Bilson also claimed that “I am sure all the fathers with one mouth affirm the apostles both might be and were bishops” (p. 295). Thomas Bilson asserted that “whatsoever becometh of the names, it cannot be denied but the apostles had that power of imposing hands, and delivering unto Satan, which they after imparted unto bishops” (p. 296). Bilson claimed: “As by imposing of hands, so by succeeding in the chair, have bishops ever since the apostles’ times been severed from presbyters in the church of Christ: which to all that do not eagerly seek to captivate the truth to their own desires, is an argument unrefellable, that the first placing of bishops above presbyters was apostolic” (p. 332). Lancelot Andrewes asserted: “Now the Apostles are Bishops: the apostle S. Peter giving us assurance of it; And his Bishoprick let another take” (Of Episcopacy, p. 14).

Henry Dexter maintained that “the hierarchical sense [is] quietly put upon one of the important words in this passage by King James’s translators”, and he added: “If Judas had had a bishopric, he must have been a bishop; and if Judas had been a bishop, then the man who was to take the vacant place would be a bishop; and the twelve were all bishops” (Hand-Book of Congregationalism, p. 25). Abel Stevens asserted that this doctrine of apostolic succession “is the basis of the arrogance and pretension of the prelatical system” (Essay on Church Polity, p. 62).
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Although it is not in many current KJV's, the 1611 KJV did have the following note in the margin indicating other acceptable words: "Or, office: or charge."
FYI, the marginal renderings are in my Cambridge University Press edition of the KJV, printed for the Trinitarian Bible Society and dating to around 2010, and also in the one I received from my parents way back in 1966.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Well, I’m not asking you to fly to Europe, just to quote the specific lines from the commissioning letter that support the goals you listed. Without the actual wording, the claims remain interpretive rather than documented.
No, you are wrong. My statement is not interpretive. It is well documented. It is the instructions King Janes gave to Bancroft. It is also in the discussions at Hampton Court Conference and in King James' words in 1607 (reaffirming the belief that the king of England is the vicar of God, the words of the king of England are God's words).

My claim is correct. My claim is well documented. My claim is factual.

What you mean is you are unwilling to accept those facts based on my post. You could go on an academic library and research (your alumni account works on more than your university). Or you could remain willfully ignorant. It does not matter to me.


Your disbelief in facts does not make those facts untrue. It just means you remain ignorant of those truths because you have not seen the evidence and are unwilling to look.


And it does not matter.

Men do not need to appear academic.
Men do not need to know the instructions to Bancroft.
Men do not need others to respect their writings.
Men need Christ.

And YOU have what you need.

Many here will not be able to take you seriously (just as it would be difficult to take scientific articles written by a flat-earther seriously).

But you do not need to be academic. You can remain ignorant on this topic. It affects nothing of eternal value.

You have the cake but missed up the icening. So what? You have what you need.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
They pulled "Lucifer" from the Vulgate, and we see the confusion that came from that faux pas.
I would classify that as a translation error (carrying over the Latin Old Testament text into an English translation). But it may have been because of the translation rules given the KJV translators.

Regardless of the reason it resulted in a misunderstanding that has spread even outside of Christianity.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Of course not! Don't be silly! These men were living in the 17th Century, not the 21st. They would have lost their jobs (of worse) if they had dared to say anything against the king.
The KJV was important to England. At the time the Church of England was divided. A resurgence of Catholicism was present, but Calvinist movements were dividing the Church of England ftom within.

King James sought a translation that would appease the Puritians (to Bancroft's dismay as he despised Calvinists) and unify the Church under the crown (King James noted this in 1607 when he insisted that words spoken by the King of England were God's words).

I am just commenting. You are British....or English...not sure the difference...so I am sure you know this already.

I was going to say it is your history, not ours, but caught myself before making that mistake. :Biggrin
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Additional information comes from the surviving notes of John Bois and from university records at Cambridge and Oxford.


It is a verifiable fact that the Church of England makers of the KJV borrowed several or even many renderings from the Roman Catholic 1582 Rheims New Testament, which is on the KJV-only view’s corrupt tree of Bibles. First-hand testimony and evidence from one of the KJV translators would acknowledge or affirm the use of the 1582 Rheims NT in the making of the KJV.

Ward Allen observed: "At Col. 2:18, he [KJV translator John Bois] explains that the [KJV] translators were relying up on the example of the Rheims Bible" (Bois, Translating for King James, pp. 10, 62-63).

The note of John Bois cited a rendering from the 1582 Rheims [“willing in humility”] and then cited the margin of the Rheims [“willfull, or selfwilled in voluntary religion”] (p. 63). Was the KJV’s rendering “voluntary” borrowed from the margin of the 1582 Rheims? W. F. Moulton stated: "The Rhemish Testament was not even named in the instructions furnished to the translators, but it has left its mark on every page of their work" (History of the English Bible, p. 207). Ward Allen maintained that "the Rheims New Testament furnished to the Synoptic Gospels and Epistles in the A. V. as many revised readings as any other version" (Translating the N. T. Epistles, p. xxv). Ward Allen and Edward Jacobs claimed that the KJV translators "in revising the text of the synoptic Gospels in the Bishops' Bible, owe about one-fourth of their revisions, each, to the Genevan and Rheims New Testaments" (Coming of the King James Gospels, p. 29). About 1 Peter 1:20, Ward Allen noted: “The A. V. shows most markedly here the influence of the Rheims Bible, from which it adopts the verb in composition, the reference of the adverbial modifier to the predicate, the verb manifest, and the prepositional phrase for you” (Translating for King James, p. 18). Concerning 1 Peter 4:9, Allen suggested that “this translation in the A. V. joins the first part of the sentence from the Rheims Bible to the final phrase of the Protestant translations” (p. 30).
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
King James sought a translation that would appease the Puritians (to Bancroft's dismay as he despised Calvinists) and unify the Church under the crown (King James noted this in 1607 when he insisted that words spoken by the King of England were God's words).
I don't think you have this quite right. At the Hampton Court conference in 1604, James declared to the Puritan party, "If this be all your party have to say for themselves, I will make them conform to the Church, or I will harry them out of the land, or else do worse." James was a calvinist, but he hated Presbyterianism because of his problems with Scottish Presbyterianism. Therefore he wanted an Episcopal settlement for the English Church (the status quo) so that he could keep the Church under his thumb.

FYI, 'English' is England only; 'British' and 'Britain' refers to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Therefore, since I live in England, I am both English and British. Until the Act of Union between England and Scotland in 1707, there was no 'Britain,' though people did refer to 'the British Isles.'
 
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