hop skipping and jumping

[Armchair Apologist]

He has another sermon about being chosen, but is slightly off kilter about complete sovereignty of his choosing.

And he quotes, "You wanna be saved ? All the ones you ( God ) have given to me will come to me ( Christ ). You wanna know if you're the elect or not ?..... just come to Jesus and you'll be one. No distinct knowledge of Gods Sovereign authority, just His Sovereign Grace.

Then Rogers quotes, Any one that comes to me, I will in no wise cast out. He twists scripture to suit free will.

He's not entirely wrong is he?

And for the record, I lean heavily "calvinistic" here.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

He's not entirely wrong is he?

And for the record, I lean heavily "calvinistic" here.

He doesn't give the entire doctrine. It's the Doctrine of Sovereignty of Grace and over salvation, both Baptists, and Protestants alike know about Gods sovereignty over grace, but... he doesn't include also His sovereignty over salvation, according to the scriptures.

 

[JonC]

you can't see a typo ? LOL LOL


and your posts can be conflicting.

I saw it. But given your examples I thought you may have been talking about specific events rather than predestination in general.

It is really simple.

1. I hold more of an Edwardsean view (strictly biblical view rather than theorizing over the mind of God) when it comes to predestination.

2. I believe Edwards theology as a whole was flawed.

Same thing with Calvinism and Arminianism. I agree with them on some issues but believe both are very flawed theologies.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

He doesn't give the entire doctrine. It's the Doctrine of Sovereignty of Grace and over salvation, both Baptists, and Protestants alike know about Gods sovereignty over grace, but... he doesn't include also His sovereignty over salvation, according to the scriptures.

He simply is not stressing it. A balanced view of soteriology acknowledges both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. He was simply emphasizing man's responsibility saying if you come to Christ, you are elect! This is exactly how I present it when I preach. Nobody has to come to Christ and worry about whether or not he or she is "elect" because if the Father has given them, they will come to him! And the most wonderful thing of all is that Christ will in no wise cast you out saying "I did not choose you!" That ought to get you "shouting" should it not?

Yesterday during our mid-week Bible study, one of our members chose to sing Ralph Carmichael's "The Savior is waiting" and it was really difficult for me to hold my tongue regarding the horrible doctrine in that song. God is sovereign over whom he saves and is not up in heaven wringing his hands begging people to come to him! Fact of the matter is that we can be passionate about reaching the lost while at the same time acknowledging that God is the one who gives the increase and it is the power of God that saves! I do not expect that I would receive an argument from any anti-Calvinist regarding this would I?

 

[Its_real_for me !]

I saw it. But given your examples I thought you may have been talking about specific events rather than predestination in general.

It is really simple.

1. I hold more of an Edwardsean view (strictly biblical view rather than theorizing over the mind of God) when it comes to predestination.

2. I believe Edwards theology as a whole was flawed.

Same thing with Calvinism and Arminianism. I agree with them on some issues but believe both are very flawed theologies.

(strictly biblical view rather than theorizing over the mind of God

I have mostly no theory over the mind of God, and mostly no theory of His word. Theory is guessing, no guessing in regards mostly to His word. Some things we have to take on faith, but most no.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

He simply is not stressing it. A balanced view of soteriology acknowledges both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. He was simply emphasizing man's responsibility saying if you come to Christ, you are elect! This is exactly how I present it when I preach. Nobody has to come to Christ and worry about whether or not he or she is "elect" because if the Father has given them, they will come to him! And the most wonderful thing of all is that Christ will in no wise cast you out saying "I did not choose you!" That ought to get you "shouting" should it not?

Yesterday during our mid-week Bible study, one of our members chose to sing Ralph Carmichael's "The Savior is waiting" and it was really difficult for me to hold my tongue regarding the horrible doctrine in that song. God is sovereign over whom he saves and is not up in heaven wringing his hands begging people to come to him! Fact of the matter is that we can be passionate about reaching the lost while at the same time acknowledging that God is the one who gives the increase and it is the power of God that saves! I do not expect that I would receive an argument from any anti-Calvinist regarding this would I?

In one sermon over the other, he contradicting.

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility

Men are able to believe, only with the drawing/convicting and convincing of the holy spirit. The responsibility, of men, is... to confess/believe, not to be convicted/convinced on thier own. When I witness I always ask if they have the desire, or feeling lead or prompted to believe.

Years ago, my father in law gave the gospel presentation at his church for a hunters at a dinner. It was fine until he harped on "it's your choice, it's yooourrr Choice" ! Mens responsibility.. Gods Choice.

 

[Mike B]

Fact of the matter is that we can be passionate about reaching the lost while at the same time acknowledging that God is the one who gives the increase and it is the power of God that saves! I do not expect that I would receive an argument from any anti-Calvinist regarding this would I?

Although I can not be definitive on the Calvinist part, I would give that a hearty "AMEN!", instead of an argument.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Men are able to believe, with the drawing/convicting and convincing by the holy spirit. The responsibility, of men, is... to confess/believe, not to be convicted/convinced on thier own.

No argument here. God is the one who draws and convicts and we are commanded to repent and believe the gospel!

I am certain that if Adrian Rogers were still around and participating on the Baptist Board, he himself would give a hearty "AMEN" to this!

 

[Its_real_for me !]

No argument here. God is the one who draws and convicts and we are commanded to repent and believe the gospel!

I am certain that if Adrian Rogers were still around and participating on the Baptist Board, he himself would give a hearty "AMEN" to this!

the only problem with what he said was "you wanna find out, just come to Jesus"...... by thier themselves, no conviction, convincing of the Holy Spirit. No explanation about are you ready, are you prepared, feel convicted are you convinced you're a sinner, Is God paving the way in your heart ??

When I put my faith and trust, in Christ, I was lead, I was convicted, I was convinced I was in dire need of the Savior ! I pulled and tugged that lead me to believe ! I could hold back with my flesh more ! I don't see that responsibility that some talk about.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

the only problem with what he said was "you wanna find out, just come to Jesus"...... by thier themselves, no conviction, convincing of the Holy Spirit. No explanation about are you ready, are you prepared ?? Typical southern Baptist mentality. Nothing personal.

OK, I guess I would have to listen to the sermon and hear exactly what he is saying. I agree with you that the "Try God" trope is unbiblical on many different levels.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

OK, I guess I would have to listen to the sermon and hear exactly what he is saying. I agree with you that the "Try God" trope is unbiblical on many different levels.

BINGO !

 

[Ben1445]

shouldn't be in error. The problem with believers is they don't compare scripture with scripture to avoid errors. Common misconception is "whosoever" is use alone to conclude of men's free will to choose Christ, when indeed Christ said you haven't chosen me but I chose you first, instead of means, any race.

I still don’t have a clear idea of what you’re actually saying because you haven’t answered my question are you Calvinist or not? you haven’t given me any real good indicators and your sentence structure doesn’t help me.

 

[Ben1445]

He doesn't give the entire doctrine. It's the Doctrine of Sovereignty of Grace and over salvation, both Baptists, and Protestants alike know about Gods sovereignty over grace, but... he doesn't include also His sovereignty over salvation, according to the scriptures.

OK now I see where you’re going. If by sovereignty, you mean micromanaging, you don’t know what sovereignty means. If we don’t have dominion and God has micromanaging sovereignty then what did God mean when he said we have dominion? What kind of responsibility or authority is it that has no will. If by sovereignty in salvation, you mean that man has no choice but to be saved then you also don’t know Scripture. Men not only have the ability to reject God, but often do even when the a genuine offer is made. “I would have gathered you, but ye would not,” is what Jesus said.
But there’s nobody who knows scripture very well who will tell you that man came to God and picked God to be a Savior. Nobody with intelligence in play is going to tell you that man decided how salvation would work.
God came to Adam first in the garden. God came down to the world first seeking man anytime man started going towards God. It was to lift themselves up as in the case of Babel. So without a doubt, God came to man first.
But sovereignty is not micromanaging sovereignty, is the final say.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

OK now I see where you’re going. If by sovereignty, you mean micromanaging, you don’t know what sovereignty means. If we don’t have dominion and God has micromanaging sovereignty then what did God mean when he said we have dominion? What kind of responsibility or authority is it that has no will. If by sovereignty in salvation, you mean that man has no choice but to be saved then you also don’t know Scripture. Men not only have the ability to reject God, but often do even when the a genuine offer is made. “I would have gathered you, but ye would not,” is what Jesus said.
But there’s nobody who knows scripture very well who will tell you that man came to God and picked God to be a Savior. Nobody with intelligence in play is going to tell you that man decided how salvation would work.
God came to Adam first in the garden. God came down to the world first seeking man anytime man started going towards God. It was to lift themselves up as in the case of Babel. So without a doubt, God came to man first.
But sovereignty is not micromanaging sovereignty, is the final say.

dominion ? He gave Adam dominion over the animals, as well as us. His ordained government over man by men but the law is created by God. So no, we don't have complete dominion over ourselves. Our conscience is driven by a Sovereign God and I don't see that as micromanaging, I call that a loving protecting God.

 

[Ben1445]

dominion ? He gave Adam dominion over the animals, as well as us. His ordained government over man by men but the law is created by God. So no, we don't have complete dominion over ourselves.

Psalms 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Our conscience is driven by a Sovereign God and I don't see that as micromanaging, I call that a loving protecting God.

So if God doesn’t drive a certain person’s conscience then God may be called, by your logic, unloving and unprotecting of His creation.

That would be a problem as Scripture presents God. Scripture shows God as calling and men refusing. Scripture does not show that God must “pre-generate” a person by an act of overriding “sovereignty” to make someone believe. Were that the case there is no need for preaching. God just makes people believers. But faith comes by hearing. And faith is given to Christ. We are not lifeless masses of beings who have no intellect or moral compass. God created us with these things and our sin blinds us but does not remove them from us. We feel after Him. But we find Him because He has made Himself close.

Welcome to the BAPTIST Board.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

Psalms 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.


So if God doesn’t drive a certain person’s conscience then God may be called, by your logic, unloving and unprotecting of His creation.

That would be a problem as Scripture presents God. Scripture shows God as calling and men refusing. Scripture does not show that God must “pre-generate” a person by an act of overriding “sovereignty” to make someone believe. Were that the case there is no need for preaching. God just makes people believers. But faith comes by hearing. And faith is given to Christ. We are not lifeless masses of beings who have no intellect or moral compass. God created us with these things and our sin blinds us but does not remove them from us. We feel after Him. But we find Him because He has made Himself close.

Welcome to the BAPTIST Board.

Given the earth to dress it keep it.nothing to do with regenerating

 

[Ben1445]

Given the earth to dress it keep it.nothing to do with regenerating

Nobody said man regenerates himself. I just said the opposite.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

Nobody said man regenerates himself. I just said the opposite.

And niether did l but some use a little too much forcing people to make a decision they’re not ready to make.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

the only problem with what he said was "you wanna find out, just come to Jesus"...... by thier themselves, no conviction, convincing of the Holy Spirit. No explanation about are you ready, are you prepared, feel convicted are you convinced you're a sinner, Is God paving the way in your heart ??

When I put my faith and trust, in Christ, I was lead, I was convicted, I was convinced I was in dire need of the Savior ! I pulled and tugged that lead me to believe ! I could hold back with my flesh more ! I don't see that responsibility that some talk about.

A couple of quotes from Spurgeon:
'The gospel is that you believe in Christ Jesus; that you get right out of yourself, and depend alone in Him. Do you say, "I feel so guilty"? You are certainly guilty, whether you feel it or not; you are far more guilty than you have any idea of. Come to Christ because you are guilty, not because you have been prepared to come by looking at your guilt. Trust nothing of your own, not even your sense of need.' [MTP, vol. 33]

'Sinners, let me address you with the words of life: Jesus wants nothing from you, nothing whatsoever, nothing done, nothing felt. He gives both work and feeling. Ragged, penniless, just as you are, lost, forsaken, desolate, with no good feelings and no good hopes, still Jesus comes to you, and in these words of pity He addresses you: "Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." [MTP, vol. 9]

Both quotations taken from Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism by Iain Murray (Banner of Truth).

A sinner should not look inside himself - he will get no help there! - but look to Christ who has done everything necessary to save the most atrocious of sinners as well as the most self-righteous of Pharisees.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

A couple of quotes from Spurgeon:
'The gospel is that you believe in Christ Jesus; that you get right out of yourself, and depend alone in Him. Do you say, "I feel so guilty"? You are certainly guilty, whether you feel it or not; you are far more guilty than you have any idea of. Come to Christ because you are guilty, not because you have been prepared to come by looking at your guilt. Trust nothing of your own, not even your sense of need.' [MTP, vol. 33]

'Sinners, let me address you with the words of life: Jesus wants nothing from you, nothing whatsoever, nothing done, nothing felt. He gives both work and feeling. Ragged, penniless, just as you are, lost, forsaken, desolate, with no good feelings and no good hopes, still Jesus comes to you, and in these words of pity He addresses you: "Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." [MTP, vol. 9]

Both quotations taken from Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism by Iain Murray (Banner of truth).

A sinner should not look inside himself - he will get no help there! - but look to Christ who has done everything necessary to save the most atrocious of sinners as well as the most self-righteous of Pharisees.

My point is God conviction with the power of his spirit, if guilt is his tool, so be it. But witnesses who built of guilt not preaching the power of the Holy Spirit is worthless.