Women are Not to Teach or Usurp Authority...

[Armchair Apologist]

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

OK, we all understand this and most of us here would give a hearty "Amen" right?

We all understand that women are not qualified to hold the office of a bishop and she is not to get behind the pulpit and "Preach" but...

We let women get up and testify and often "lead in worship" meaning she is holding the microphone and is the 'lead vocalist' singing a song that the rest of the congregation is (supposedly) singing. We allow them to "testify" and perhaps even 'teach' on matters in which she may be an expert. It is my understanding that women are often teaching Seminary courses although I have not experienced such first-hand but I could see where a lady may be an expert in languages, history, apologetics, and so forth. I have never had a woman teacher and my seminary experience was largely online but would a woman be able to teach in a seminary without violating 1 Timothy 2:12? Could she teach courses in theology, hermeneutics, homiletics... are there any courses in which she ought to be expressly forbidden from teaching?

Can a woman teach a Sunday School class where men are present and in attendance? Can a woman give the gospel to a man and show him how he may be saved?

Can we draw a line between what is permissable and that which is not?

 

[Deacon]

Out of context that passage is ridiculous.
Imagine Paul telling the men, "Don't ever learn anything from women, they can't be teachers."

Galatians 3:28 says that ...in Christ, "there is no male and female."

We see women in a variety of leadership roles in the NT:
Phoebe, who served as a deacon (Romans 16:1-2)
Priscilla and Aquila, Paul’s fellow workers (Romans 16:3)
Euodia and Syntyche labored with Paul (Philippians 4:2-3)
Priscilla instructed Apollos in the faith (Acts 18:26)

These examples suggest the prohibition against teaching wasn't absolute; the admonition might have been a solution to a local problem.

Can we draw a line between what is permissible and that which is not?

Probably not.... it's rather grey.

Rob

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Out of context that passage is ridiculous.
Imagine Paul telling the men, "Don't ever learn anything from women, they can't be teachers."

I agree, and this is one end of the extreme. Women are not dumb and I am always learning from the one that the Lord has put in my life! What about the other extreme? Aside from regarding the scriptures as sexist, misogynistic, and rejecting it altogether, what is the rationale for women pastors and pretty much doing what the scriptures obviously teach against?

Galatians 3:28 says that ...in Christ, "there is no male and female."

A very broad statement but does such negate that which is clearly taught in 1 Tim 2, 3, and Tit 1?

We see women in a variety of leadership roles in the NT:
Phoebe, who served as a deacon (Romans 16:1-2)
Priscilla and Aquila, Paul’s fellow workers (Romans 16:3)
Euodia and Syntyche labored with Paul (Philippians 4:2-3)
Priscilla instructed Apollos in the faith (Acts 18:26)

Leadership does not always equate to teaching and preaching and serving in a "Deacon" role usually does not involve teaching and preaching. I am one of the few deacons at my Church who does any actual teaching and preaching on a regular basis.

Whether women can serve in the role of a deacon is another intermural debate separate from this. I would assert that the Greek word diakanos does not always equate to one holding to the "office of a deacon" and I would agree with most translators who simply refer to Phoebe as being a "Servant."

Regarding my role as a deacon in our church, my wife serves right alongside me as I believe she should. I am not against women serving as deacons so long as it is not in a church where deacons are often functional "Elders" due to the absence of actual elders but I also believe it would be shameful for my wife to serve as a deacon(ness) without my being a deacon. I have been in churches where there were widowed ladies serving as deacons whose husbands had served as deacons.

Priscilla instructing Apollos is a good example - could we use such as an example of a female serving as a seminary professor/instructor?

These examples suggest the prohibition against teaching wasn't absolute; the admonition might have been a solution to a local problem.

I have heard it argued that it is a cultural matter but Paul equating the role of a man and woman in the order of creation (1 Tim 2) tells me that it goes far beyond cultural concerns.

Probably not.... it's rather grey.

I think we all agree that women are able to teach under certain circumstances and most here would agree that a woman cannot serve in the "Office of a Bishop." There may be differences of opinion where one may draw this line and make such a distinction and this is where I am hoping there would be some good discussion.

 

[David Lamb]

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

OK, we all understand this and most of us here would give a hearty "Amen" right?

We all understand that women are not qualified to hold the office of a bishop and she is not to get behind the pulpit and "Preach" but...

We let women get up and testify and often "lead in worship" meaning she is holding the microphone and is the 'lead vocalist' singing a song that the rest of the congregation is (supposedly) singing. We allow them to "testify" and perhaps even 'teach' on matters in which she may be an expert. It is my understanding that women are often teaching Seminary courses although I have not experienced such first-hand but I could see where a lady may be an expert in languages, history, apologetics, and so forth. I have never had a woman teacher and my seminary experience was largely online but would a woman be able to teach in a seminary without violating 1 Timothy 2:12? Could she teach courses in theology, hermeneutics, homiletics... are there any courses in which she ought to be expressly forbidden from teaching?

Can a woman teach a Sunday School class where men are present and in attendance? Can a woman give the gospel to a man and show him how he may be saved?

Can we draw a line between what is permissable and that which is not?

I wonder who you mean by "we". Certainly I have heard women as well as men giving their testimony, but I have never been in a church (either as a member or a visitor) where there has been any "lead vocalist" of either sex. Plenty of women Sunday School teachers, but as I understand it, Sunday Schools here in the UK are rather different from American Sunday Schools. Here, they are for children. This goes back to the days of the first Sunday Schools started by pioneers such as Robert Raikes, when "Sunday Schools" were started in order to give children from poor backgrounds a basic education. It was only later that Sunday Schools changed to being for teaching Christian doctrine to children. I think your post assumes that adults go to Sunday School, which doesn't happen in the UK, although some churches run an all-age Bible class.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I wonder who you mean by "we". Certainly I have heard women as well as men giving their testimony, but I have never been in a church (either as a member or a visitor) where there has been any "lead vocalist" of either sex. Plenty of women Sunday School teachers, but as I understand it, Sunday Schools here in the UK are rather different from American Sunday Schools. Here, they are for children. This goes back to the days of the first Sunday Schools started by pioneers such as Robert Raikes, when "Sunday Schools" were started in order to give children from poor backgrounds a basic education. It was only later that Sunday Schools changed to being for teaching Christian doctrine to children. I think your post assumes that adults go to Sunday School, which doesn't happen in the UK, although some churches run an all-age Bible class.

I have little (no) personal or practical experience with churches in the UK aside from a couple of layovers in Heathrow and a business trip up in Scotland better than ten years ago. Most of my "Baptist" experience has been here in the States so admittedly, this is where I am coming from. I do not know if you are strictly from a "Reformed Baptist" background but if so, this narrows the scope further does it not? Most Reformed Baptist services I have attended have been somewhat more "regulatory" than do the "Suthren Babtists" that I usually run around with. Southern (as well as Independent) Baptists often have "Speashul Music" and others have incorporated (badly, I might say) "Contemporary" worship (drums, geetars, mic swallowing singers, etc.) where vocalists take turns "leading" a song or whatever.

There are some who refer to "Sunday School" as being "Adult Bible Study" and under the best circumstances, the intent of such is to better equip the saints in the foundational doctrines of the faith and promote personal spiritual growth. It is also a time where questions are often asked and a good teacher is able to "shift gears" and speak extemporaneously on such matters. Perhaps "Adult Sunday School" was something that evolved sometime after Robert Raikes as a means to keep the deacons from wandering off or standing around smoking and talking about fishing or whatever? I am all for "Adult Sunday School" so long as the teacher is competent, adequately prepared, and is able to instruct in matters of doctrine and practice. What becomes wearisome is when Sunday School or "Adult Bible Study" becomes an exercise in being boastful of how well you are preceieved in knowing the scriptures and in such cases, I would rather sleep in.

But all of this is neither here nor there. Where would you see the point at which a woman is stepping over a line and serving in an unbiblical "teaching, preaching, or pastoral" role?

 

[Reynolds]

Out of context that passage is ridiculous.
Imagine Paul telling the men, "Don't ever learn anything from women, they can't be teachers."

Galatians 3:28 says that ...in Christ, "there is no male and female."

We see women in a variety of leadership roles in the NT:
Phoebe, who served as a deacon (Romans 16:1-2)
Priscilla and Aquila, Paul’s fellow workers (Romans 16:3)
Euodia and Syntyche labored with Paul (Philippians 4:2-3)
Priscilla instructed Apollos in the faith (Acts 18:26)

These examples suggest the prohibition against teaching wasn't absolute; the admonition might have been a solution to a local problem.

Probably not.... it's rather grey.

Rob

Nothing out of context. The Holy Spirit inspired writings of Paul plainly prohibited women from teaching or having authority over men in church. Nothing complicated about it.

 

[Silverhair]

Where would you see the point at which a woman is stepping over a line and serving in an unbiblical "teaching, preaching, or pastoral" role?

I run into a problem when man has decided that they should overrule God. When we are told in Gal 3:27-28 there is no difference between a man and woman why do you think there is?

If God called a woman to preach who are you to say she cannot.

I know you will point to 1Ti 2:12 and Paul's comment but at the same time you dismiss Gal 3:27-28. The gifts all come from the Holy Spirit so if a woman is given the gift of preaching why do you say she should not use it?

The Bible lists spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit for the common good, including wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:4–11). Would deny any of these to a woman?

When studying the Bible, it's important to consider the time period, culture, geography, politics, customs, and challenges faced by the original audience. Understanding these elements helps clarify the author's intent and the message being communicated.
onfire-ministriesDOTorg thelifeDOTcom

 

[Salty]

I run into a problem when man has decided that they should overrule God. When we are told in Gal 3:27-28 there is no difference between a man and woman why do you think there is?

Lets be careful as to how literal we take that verse! First we all know there are biological difference between a man and a women. Thus - we need to dig into the context of the verse!

 

[Silverhair]

Lets be careful as to how literal we take that verse! First we all know there are biological difference between a man and a women. Thus - we need to dig into the context of the verse!

@Salty that is obvious but when we are told that we are all equal in Christ which is how I understand that verse then to say that now some are to be considered less equal is to me illogical.

Paul said in Gal 3:28 that we are all equal. Are we now to say there are different levels of equal?

Not to take this thread into a C vs A fight but is it not just the C's that have a problem with women preaching but at the same time say that God has determined all that happens so if a woman is preaching then it is only because God has put her there.

I look at the whole of scripture and I see that God has used men and women as He has seen fit to move His plan ahead.

 

[Salty]

I do NOT see this as a C vs A discussion!.
From the Matthew Henry Commentary:

According to the law - there was a difference between male and female, between Jew & Greek and Bond & free.
BUT in Christ we are equal .... to be accepted by Christ (for salvation)

From Wycliffe Bible Commentary: We are equal to be of the seed of Abraham -- that we are on in Christ.

By saying that we are equal - that would have to mean a (born again) 7 year old could be a pastor!

 

[Silverhair]

I do NOT see this as a C vs A discussion!.
From the Matthew Henry Commentary:

According to the law - there was a difference between male and female, between Jew & Greek and Bond & free.
BUT in Christ we are equal .... to be accepted by Christ (for salvation)

From Wycliffe Bible Commentary: We are equal to be of the seed of Abraham -- that we are on in Christ.

By saying that we are equal - that would have to mean a (born again) 7 year old could be a pastor!

Yes we are all one in Christ and we are to be treated on an equal basis as saved individuals.

I would not let a 7 year old pastor a church but I would let a competent adult do so. I would not let a 7 year old make financial decisions even though they can do math.

Whomever steps into the position of pastor should be judged by the message they preach. Do they preach the word of God or of man?

 

[Salty]

Yes we are all one in Christ and we are to be treated on an equal basis as saved individuals.

I would not let a 7 year old pastor a church but I would let a competent adult do so. I would not let a 7 year old make financial decisions even though they can do math.

Whomever steps into the position of pastor should be judged by the message they preach. Do they preach the word of God or of man?

Why not let a born again 7 year old pastor a church - IF WE ARE EQUAL?

OR dont you understand the point I had made?

 

[Silverhair]

Why not let a born again 7 year old pastor a church - IF WE ARE EQUAL?

OR dont you understand the point I had made?

I understand what you said but do you not understand my response?

Note the words "I would let a competent adult do so."

It seems that many would rather have an incompetent man preach than have a competent woman do so.

We know that God used a donkey to save a mans life (Num 22:22-33) do you think it is beyond Him to use a woman to save a man's soul?

 

[Salty]

and who says a 7 year old cannot be competent!

Well, Paul says a pastor is to be the husband of one wife -
and if a woman has a wife - well, now we have another problem!

 

[Silverhair]

and who says a 7 year old cannot be competent!

Well, Paul says a pastor is to be the husband of one wife -
and if a woman has a husband - well, now we have another problem!

Well you may think that a 7 year old could be competent too preach but I would not.

Actually my wife has a husband. Is the not what a man is called that is married to a woman.

And from the article we know that that female pastor had a husband. And "he" worked two jobs.

 

[Salty]

Well you may think that a 7 year old could be competent too preach but I would not.

Actually my wife has a husband. Is the not what a man is called that is married to a woman.

And from the article we know that that female pastor had a husband. And "he" worked two jobs.

I think it is obvious that I mess up
It should read (as I have fixed my post in # 14

If a woman has a WIFE - then we have another problem.

as far as a 7 year old preacher - well, just use some common sense, in what I was trying to state!

 

[Silverhair]

I think it is obvious that I mess up
It should read (as I have fixed my post in # 14

If a woman has a WIFE - then we have another problem.

as far as a 7 year old preacher - well, just use some common sense, in what I was trying to state!

Yes I understood what you were trying to say and I agree that if the woman had a wife, whether see called that woman her husband or not it would still disallow her from preaching.

But it does seem odd that they will let a man preach who is divorced, sometimes more than once. Or even a man of questionable character.

Just because someone is saved does not make them a preacher at 7 years or 37 years.

But at the same time if God has called someone to preach, male or female, who are we to say one is allowed and the other is not.

In Paul's time and culture what he said was logical and fit for the audience he had.

All we have to do is look to how Jesus treated women. He elevated them to equality with men which was unheard of in that time. Are we now to fall back from what Jesus had done?

 

[David Lamb]

But all of this is neither here nor there. Where would you see the point at which a woman is stepping over a line and serving in an unbiblical "teaching, preaching, or pastoral" role?

Thanks for replying. I would say that if a woman assumes authority over a man, then she is stepping over the biblical line:

1Ti 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Incidentally, that cannot mean "absolute silence", because Paul also writes about a woman praying, and how she should do so with her head covered.

 

[Deacon]

Incidentally, that cannot mean "absolute silence", because Paul also writes about a woman praying, and how she should do so with her head covered.

And following that reasoning, 'having authority' does not mean 'absolute authority' - and so we enter the "gray zone."

In the passage (1 Timothy 2:13-14) Paul supports his point by using the story of Adam and Eve's creation.
Adam carried authority because he was older and wiser.

“For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1 Timothy 2:13–14, ESV)

Rather than looking at this as a God-given order based upon their creation, could this be pointing to wisdom inherent in elders?
- the following passage concerns church leadership, overseers and deacons.

Rob

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I run into a problem when man has decided that they should overrule God. When we are told in Gal 3:27-28 there is no difference between a man and woman why do you think there is?

Are you trying to say that this passage teaches egalitarianism? That women and men are equal one to another in every way?

If God called a woman to preach who are you to say she cannot.

Where in the scriptures does it say that anyone is "called" to preach? In what context would God call someone and in which context would they fulfil this calling? Preaching does not necessarily mean standing behind a pulpit and raining fire on a congregation!

Would it be acceptable for a lady to communicate the gospel message to a group of people who have assembled around them? What about an elderly lady sitting down with two or three servicemen showing them how they may be saved? What about this same lady giving simple "motherly" advice to these same servicemen before they ship out to their final duty station after training?

The only restriction I am seeing here is that a woman cannot fill the office of a pastor/elder. There are many other things that women can do, of which they are specifically gifted, enabled, and truthfully, are often better suited than most men so why are they always looking to do the one thing that they are explicitly NOT CALLED to do?

I know you will point to 1Ti 2:12 and Paul's comment but at the same time you dismiss Gal 3:27-28. The gifts all come from the Holy Spirit so if a woman is given the gift of preaching why do you say she should not use it?

I try to formulate my position using the whole of scripture and not just a few "Pet" verses I have thrown together that seems to support whatever position I think ought to be the right one!

I defy you to show me where the "Gift of Preaching" (specifically, holding the office of a Bishop) is found anywhere in the scriptures! The Spiritual Gifts in Rom 12 and 1 Cor 12 are intentionally vague to cover a wide scope of areas in which one may be called and equipped for service. I would say that the vast majority of these spiritual gifts ought to be evident in one who desires the "Office of a Bishop." You may try to cite Ephesians but please note that "Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers" are not "spiritual gifts" but are gifts to the Church! These "Gifts to the Church" have been set apart, properly equipped, and qualified to serve in such a role as they are called.

As I recall one old preacher one time telling me "We are not 'called' to preach; we are COMMANDED to preach!" Let that one sink in for a while. We simply need to determine in what context that we are to carry out this command and such is quite simple as Paul says "Let every man wherein he is called to therein glorify God" (1 Cor 7:24)!

I therefore believe that a woman may teach and preach without usurping authority over a man but such also means that she is not standing behind a pulpit expositing the scriptures over the main congregation!

The Bible lists spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit for the common good, including wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:4–11). Would deny any of these to a woman?

As I said, none of these spiritual gifts specifically require one to enter the "Vocational Ministry" and pastor a church!

When studying the Bible, it's important to consider the time period, culture, geography, politics, customs, and challenges faced by the original audience. Understanding these elements helps clarify the author's intent and the message being communicated.

I believe that we are doing so. Paul expressly states why such stipulations were made. 1 Tim 2:13-15 makes this quite clear and this cannot be glossed over with any historical or cultural understanding! The only way to make the text say anything else is because one wants it to say something else and therein lies the problem.