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The Fable of the Unmixed, pure preserved stream of manuscripts/texts

Logos1560

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KJV-only author David Cloud maintained that “no one denies that such a variety [among the Byzantine or traditional Greek manuscripts] exists” (Faith, p. 714), but perhaps he does not consider what some KJV-only authors have directly asserted.

The clear evidence that at least some KJV-only authors believe and advocate a fable or myth about an unmixed, pure preserved stream of manuscripts that agree completely with each other can be seen in their books. KJV-only author Ed DeVries claimed: “Using the legible copies of the Received Text Erasmus typeset a text on the printing press. This new printed text was letter for letter and word for word the same as the Received Text from which it was copied” (Divinely Inspired, p. 14). Ed DeVries declared that “these ‘received’ manuscripts are in complete agreement with each other” (p. 16). Ed DeVries claimed: “No one, not even liberal scholars, questions the fact that the Textus Receptus is a perfect representation of the manuscripts from which it was copied” (Ibid.). Ed DeVries declared that “the Received Text manuscripts were exact copies of the original autographs and/or of each other” (p. 17). Ed DeVries claimed: “The Textus Receptus has been proven to be a perfect rendering of the Received Text” (p. 27).

Troy Clark asserted that “he [Erasmus] perfectly copied” and that “there was not one Word change from its original form” (Perfect Bible, p. 121). Bob Kendall contended that “the TR has not one footnote” and that “the TR has no footnotes” (How Firm, pp. 28, 41). Troy Clark claimed: “Stephanus used the 16 Majority Text Greek manuscripts in the library of King Francis I and son Henry II. These were all identical, even down to the letter” (Perfect Bible, p. 144). Troy Clark asserted: “The Textus Receptus will always represent the undisputed majority of 95-99% of Greek texts that mirror agreement with each other” (p, 72). Michael Hollner claimed that “the Authorized King James Version is backed up by the majority of all existing manuscripts” and “this majority, being well over 95% in number out of some 5800 manuscripts, is called the ‘Majority Text’” (KJ Only Debate, p. 18). Mike Holloway declared: “The translators of the KJV used these 4,800 manuscripts as the basis for their translation work” (Common Sense, p. 14). Mike Holloway claimed: “There are over 5,000 footprints God left behind which line up with each other and the King James Bible” (p. 39). Al Lacy asserted: "From God's pure manuscripts came the AV1611" (Can I Trust My Bible, p. 18). Al Lacy maintained that “there is a set of manuscripts that are free of error” (p. 85) and that God “kept us error-free COPIES in the Masoretic manuscripts of the Hebrew and the Received Text of the Greek” (p. 116).

David W. Daniels claimed that the KJV “was accurately translated from perfect copies of God’s words” (BattleCry, Sept/Oct., 2007, p. 11). Wayne Williams asserted: "There are many infallible manuscripts such as the Majority Text and the Textus Receptus to verify the preserved Scripture" (Does God Have a Controversy, p. 21). Bruce Borders claimed that “over 5000 Antiochian manuscripts or parts of manuscripts are in existence today” and that “each completely agrees with the others, with absolutely no discrepancies” (The Only Bible, p. 14). Jeffrey Khoo asserted: “The Lord has certainly kept these [Byzantine] manuscripts pure and uncorrupted throughout the centuries” (Kwok, VPP, p. 129). Reed Newman quoted his father Nelson Newman as writing: “The Textus Receptus is a family of over 5,300 manuscripts (some complete, some partial) that all agree and have been in circulation and continuous use since the early church period” (Forever, p. 16). James Rasbeary claimed that “the Greek texts used by the [KJV] translators were not marred by mistakes and accumulated errors” and that “these [5300] Greek manuscripts are in agreement with each other and with the King James Bible” (What’s Wrong, p. 103).

Even D. A. Waite asserted that “the Textus Receptus is based on over 5,210 Greek manuscripts or over 99% of those preserved for us” and that “the Textus Receptus manuscripts are almost perfect mirrors of one another” (Central Seminary Refuted, pp. 67, 80, 95). D. A. Waite claimed that “the Textus Receptus is from a type of text known as the Traditional Text” (Fundamentalist Distortions, p. 27), that “the Textus Receptus kind of text is represented by over 99% of the 5, 255 manuscripts” (p. 52), and that “the Textus Receptus is based on over 99% (over 5,210) of the Greek manuscripts extant today” (p. 53). D. A. Waite wrote: “The Textus Receptus manuscripts vary in spellings somewhat. Let them vary” (BJU’s Errors, p. 43). D. A. Waite contended that “the ‘Textus Receptus’ was the result of the agreement of thousands of Greek manuscripts” (Critical Answer to Michael Sproul’s, p. 132). Waite claimed: “Each of these manuscripts of the Traditional Text or Received Greek Text are virtually identical” (Foes of the KJB, p. 130).

These KJV-only authors unintentionally reveal that they are misinformed and that they believe non-true claims.
 

Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
KJV-only author David Cloud maintained....
Ed DeVries claimed....
Troy Clark asserted...
Bob Kendall contended...
Michael Hollner claimed...
Mike Holloway declared....
Al Lacy asserted....
David W. Daniels claimed........
Wayne Williams asserted.....
Bruce Borders claimed......
Jeffrey Khoo asserted....
Reed Newman quoted his father Nelson Newman.......
James Rasbeary claimed......
D. A. Waite asserted......


^^^^^^^^^ You copy and paste.........All Day, Every Day! Now tell us again how you're not obsessed with this. I wish you'd spend as much time reading your Bible . I spend as much time reading my Bible as you do posting on here. I challenge you to do the same. Deny it all you want, but it's clear you have a strange, and dare I say, weird fixation with this topic. May I lovingly suggest that you please take a good long look at yourself and see if you have an addiction. God bless.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May I lovingly suggest that you please take a good long look at yourself and see if you have an addiction. God bless.
It may have taken me less time to post my post than it took you for your response.
Are your negative, non-true accusations intended to be a diversion to aid those who advocate the erroneous KJV-only reasoning that was exposed?

Why do you seem to object to the advocating of scriptural truths and to the exposing of non-scriptural, false KJV-only doctrine?
Why do you seem to attack my love for the truth and for the Scriptures?
 
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Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
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It may have taken me less time to post my post than it took you for your response.
Are your negative, non-true accusations intended to be a diversion to aid those who advocate the erroneous KJV-only reasoning that was exposed?

Why do you seem to object to the advocating of scriptural truths and to the exposing of non-scriptural, false KJV-only doctrine?
Why do you seem to attack my love for the truth and for the Scriptures?
Well, to be totally honest. I think you're a very weird, very arrogant, nut case! You spend your entire life, or so it seems, posting on this topic almost every hour of the day as if you're the ultimate authority. I'm sorry I find that strange, very strange. And all these years, I don't think I've ever seen you admit that you were wrong about anything. You just post some more of your copy and paste diatribe. My comment to you has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of KJVO, it has to do with the weirdness of your obsession with it. Surely, I cannot be the only one who sees this. Do you deny that you've been posting on this very topic FOR YEARS? We've all read your copy and paste posts time after time after time over all these years, frankly I just skip right over them anymore, cuz there's nothing new in them. But, is there nothing else that you think about? Man! Get a life!!
 
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Logos1560

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One poster shows that they jump to incorrect or wrong conclusions. I have a life and have had one for many years. I have not claimed to be the "ultimate authority" as was incorrectly alleged. I have continued to learn and study about this issue and several other matters. I read about many Bible-related topics. The KJV-only issue actually involves several Bible doctrines and Bible-related matters such as inspiration, preservation, translation, canon, interpretation, illumination, priesthood of all believers, etc. In some forms of KJV-only teaching, the KJV-only issue affects the Bible doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of sanctification. I am willing to learn from KJV-only advocates, and I have learned from KJV-only authors in the over 200 KJV-only books I have read. A sound doctrine of the Scriptures is foundational for other Bible doctrines.

Is it interesting that the person who claims to skip over my posts also assumes to know what is supposedly in them?

I have repeatedly revised and corrected things that I write. When an error is proven to be in my writings, I correct it. Quotations have been added from recent KJV-only books written in 2025 and 2026. I have read over 100 additional KJV-only books since my 2003 book so my posts now may include quotations from those books. New information (from many other sources) that I have learned is now included in recent posts. I attempt to read widely. I have recently read several books concerning Rabbinic Judaism. Since I retired four years ago from a full-time job, I have had more time to read and to write.

There are several Christian ministries that focus on or emphasis one thing such as the Creation/Evolution groups, pro-life Christian groups, pro-Calvinism or anti-Calvinism, apologetics groups, groups that focus on one cult or that focus on several cults, etc.
 

Baptist4life

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[Is it interesting that the person who claims to skip over my posts also assumes to know what is supposedly in them?]

That's because you've posted the same "copy and paste" stuff for the last 15 years or more!! You could not even bring yourself to ignore this post, you had to reply, because that's all you do. If you look at the times you post things it's anywhere from very early in the pre dawn morning, to late in the evening, and all times in between. So this life that you supposedly have outside of this topic, when do you have time to live it? I won't expect an answer or do I need one. Everyone knows your obsession. I'm just really very tired and bored with you. I won't continue to post anything, everyone knows I've told the truth................I guarantee he will respond to this because he just can't help himself. Once again he'll prove my point. I'm out.
 
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Logos1560

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That's because you've posted the same "copy and paste" stuff for the last 15 years or more!!
You assumed incorrectly since my posts are not the exact same ones posted for the last 15 years. You jumped to a wrong conclusion, which you failed to correct. You did not state the truth with your misleading and non-true accusations. You incorrectly appeal to the "everyone knows" fallacy. Checking this forum for one to five minutes a few times a day is not that much total time [less than half an hour most days].
 

Mike B

Active Member
@Logos1560 There is no question that you have done the homework, and as a frequent reader of
your posts, it would be dishonest of me to say that they are "easy reading". They are not, and that
is mostly due to the number of quotes in a given paragraph. I say this not to be disrespectful, but
to assist you in improving the readability of your posts.

Troy Clark asserted: “The Textus Receptus will always represent the undisputed majority of 95-99% of Greek texts that mirror agreement with each other” (p, 72). Michael Hollner claimed that “the Authorized King James Version is backed up by the majority of all existing manuscripts” and “this majority, being well over 95% in number out of some 5800 manuscripts, is called the ‘Majority Text’” (KJ Only Debate, p. 18). Mike Holloway declared: “The translators of the KJV used these 4,800 manuscripts as the basis for their translation work” (Common Sense, p. 14). Mike Holloway claimed: “There are over 5,000 footprints God left behind which line up with each other and the King James Bible” (p. 39).

In the six lines of text, above, you are quoting three different people and four separate quotations.
To be honest, I haven't a clue as to who any of those people are, or if they have a shred of credibility.
There are extremists in every corner of society today..it seems like so many people all but demand
to have a unique position on everything from soup to nuts, including Bible versions, and then fight
like a wolverine to try and justify their shtick as something special.

I would much prefer to read that information as something you include in your own writing, as
just reading quotes from people I don't know, and who may or may not have any standing is not
helpful. That and my eyes tend to glaze over after the first couple of quotes are read.

Not trying to be overly critical, but just sharing my two cents worth from the cheap seats.. twocents-1.gif
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In the six lines of text, above, you are quoting three different people and four separate quotations.
To be honest, I haven't a clue as to who any of those people are, or if they have a shred of credibility.
The purpose of quotations is to provide the direct documented evidence for my opening statement. I quote several KJV-only authors to prove that I am not misrepresenting what they believe and to show what they themselves say that they believe. Some KJV-only advocates will claim that no one believes things that advocates of their view often say unless such clear evidence is provided. I back up my statements with specifics instead of throwing speculations or vague generalizations. I have read over 200 books by KJV-only authors so I know who these authors are.

Are you claiming or suggesting that KJV-only authors have no credibility?

The clear evidence that at least some KJV-only authors believe and advocate a fable or myth about an unmixed, pure preserved stream of manuscripts that agree completely with each other can be seen in their books.
 
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Mike B

Active Member
I say this not to be disrespectful, but to assist you in improving the readability of your posts.

To be honest, I haven't a clue as to who any of those people are, or if they have a shred of credibility.

Are you claiming or suggesting that KJV-only authors have no credibility?

I was not claiming or suggesting anything, rather I was hoping to help you make
your posts more readable. Quotations have purpose, agreed, but just a couple are
sufficient vs. drowning the reader in an unnecessary number of them.

JMHO
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
To be honest, I haven't a clue as to who any of those people are, or if they have a shred of credibility.
Did you forget your own comment about the KJV-only authors whom I quoted ["if they have a shred of credibility"]? What is the purpose of your comment if you were not claiming or suggesting anything?
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
KJV-only author David Cloud maintained....
Ed DeVries claimed....
Troy Clark asserted...
Bob Kendall contended...
Michael Hollner claimed...
Mike Holloway declared....
Al Lacy asserted....
David W. Daniels claimed........
Wayne Williams asserted.....
Bruce Borders claimed......
Jeffrey Khoo asserted....
Reed Newman quoted his father Nelson Newman.......
James Rasbeary claimed......
D. A. Waite asserted......


^^^^^^^^^ You copy and paste.........All Day, Every Day! Now tell us again how you're not obsessed with this. I wish you'd spend as much time reading your Bible . I spend as much time reading my Bible as you do posting on here. I challenge you to do the same. Deny it all you want, but it's clear you have a strange, and dare I say, weird fixation with this topic. May I lovingly suggest that you please take a good long look at yourself and see if you have an addiction. God bless.
He's pushing back against the notion that God solely preserved His word in the KJV/TR. Ppl seem to have more faith in their KJV than they do Jesus Christ.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
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In his thread entitled "I Further Confess the modern critical Greek text of Scripture Can Not be Reconciled with God’s Promises about the Preservation of His Word,"
Alan Dale Gross quoted and posted the following, and it provides evidence that some seem to believe a fable or myth of an extant unmixed perfectly preserved stream of manuscripts and TR editions.

"Rather, the Textus Receptus that underlies the Authorized Version of the Bible, that Holy Word that was in use by Baptist churches and believers in other denominations both in the time from the invention of the printing press until the present day, and also the type of text in use by the line of true churches and believers, who were first denominated Christians, and then Baptists or Anabaptists, in the Ancient and Medieval Periods, is the True Majority Text, and the only text that the Spirit has Led Bible-believing churches who accept the Testimony of Scripture to its own Preservation to receive as Canonical and Perfectly Preserved.

"I therefore confess with true churches, countless martyrs, and the humble and faithful people of God, that the Textus Receptus, loved, copied, printed, Translated, read, memorized, meditated upon, and Preached for Century after Century, is indeed God’s Very Living and Holy Word, Delivered Miraculously from Heaven, Providentially and Perfectly Preserved, and with Holy Joy and Wonder Received by me in Faith as His Own Living Oracles in my hands."
 

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
Why would a person post only about one topic?

Over and over again, quote stacking and relentlessly fighting against one particular idea?

Does this individual ever think about anything else?

Do they care about such Christian practices and spiritual topics as preparing for eternity, how to be born again, assurance of salvation, divine healing, evangelism, missions, prayer, how to study the Bible, end times, sexual purity, renewing the mind, resisting gluttony, mammonism, avoiding worldliness, loving our enemies, turning the other cheek, showing kindness to neighbors, living in joy?
 

Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As I said before, he has an abnormal fixation on this topic. It seems to be ALL he thinks about! Sad to say, I truly believe he has some mental issues. Obsessive compulsive comes to mind. He just can't seem to help himself. I worry about him.
 
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