From the foundation of the world?

[percho]

How long did the down-casting of configuration/system/world take?

Is the down-casting of configuration/system/world different from the Creation of the heavens and the earth?

From Romans 1:20 ----- ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου

from/since of creation of configuration/system/world

Was the above, the foundation of the world?

Was the moment of that creation Rom 1:20 was that creation subjected to vanity, not willingly?

Here is a reel I found interesting and I think it also applies to the creation subjected to vanity.

89K views · 54K reactions | The meanings of the names in Genesis 5, read in order, spell out the gospel: "Man is appointed mortal sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort and rest." The w

The meanings of the names in Genesis 5, read in order, spell out the gospel: "Man is appointed mortal sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing...

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[Van]

How long did the down-casting of configuration/system/world take?

Is the down-casting of configuration/system/world different from the Creation of the heavens and the earth?

From Romans 1:20 ----- ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου

from/since of creation of configuration/system/world

Was the above, the foundation of the world?

Was the moment of that creation Rom 1:20 was that creation subjected to vanity, not willingly?

Here is a reel I found interesting and I think it also applies to the creation subjected to vanity.

89K views · 54K reactions | The meanings of the names in Genesis 5, read in order, spell out the gospel: "Man is appointed mortal sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort and rest." The w

The meanings of the names in Genesis 5, read in order, spell out the gospel: "Man is appointed mortal sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing...

www.facebook.com

I am sorry but I could not make heads or tails out of the link, please write a brief summary of about creation being subjected to vanity.

Romans 1:20 NASB
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is not the phrase under study but is relevant as it shares traits with "since the foundation of the world." Thanks for bringing it into our discussion.

We seem to have two choices, since the creation of humanity or since the creation of the fallen human society. The second choice is indicated because fallen humanity is without excuse. Unfallen humanity, Adam and Eve before the fall, did not need an excuse for disregarding God and His provision.

I think it is obvious the "world" refers to mankind, as rocks and oceans do not perceive God's eternal power or divine nature, but we are without excuse.

 

[Van]

Romans 8:20-21 NASB
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Here again we see that "the creation" refers not to planet earth but humanity, which was subjected to futility as a consequence of Adam's sin. So, yes, I would agree this also refers to the down casting of humanity. And when are fallen individuals "set free from slavery to corruption? When they are placed into Christ, undergo the washing of regeneration, and are thus born anew, as children of God.

 

[percho]

I am sorry but I could not make heads or tails out of the link, please write a brief summary of about creation being subjected to vanity.

Romans 1:20 NASB
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is not the phrase under study but is relevant as it shares traits with "since the foundation of the world." Thanks for bringing it into our discussion.

We seem to have two choices, since the creation of humanity or since the creation of the fallen human society. The second choice is indicated because fallen humanity is without excuse. Unfallen humanity, Adam and Eve before the fall, did not need an excuse for disregarding God and His provision.

I think it is obvious the "world" refers to mankind, as rocks and oceans do not perceive God's eternal power or divine nature, but we are without excuse.

The man on the link says, the meaning of the men's names in ch 5 of Gen translates to:
"Man is appointed mortal sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort and rest."

That is the subjected vanity of the created world. My understanding of world is; created order out of the תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ tou bou of Gen 1:2 on the earth.

Subjected before the sin of Adam

 

[Ascetic X]

“For the creation was subjected to futility,”

Adam’s sin brought God’s curse upon the ground and the created order (Genesis 3:17–19). Decay, disorder, pain, and death now mark a world that no longer reflects its original harmony. Creation, planet earth, groans under this burden, awaiting the day when God removes the effects of the Fall (Romans 8:22).

“not by its own will,”

The natural world did not rebel against God or bring this condition upon itself. Human sin affected the earth entrusted to humanity’s stewardship, binding creation to the consequences of Adam’s disobedience.

“but because of the One who subjected it,”

God subjected the physical world of creation, the land, vegetation, animals, insects, birds, fish, etc, to the curse as a righteous judgment, just as He pronounced judgment upon Adam, Eve, and the serpent. His judgment was never detached from His mercy, for He immediately promised the coming Seed who would crush the serpent and undo the ruin caused by sin (Genesis 3:15).

“in hope”

God’s curse upon planet earth included the certain promise of restoration. Through Christ’s redemption, creation will ultimately be delivered from corruption and share in the glory of God’s redeemed children. The new heavens and new earth will display the full victory of God over sin, death, and the curse (Revelation 21:1–5; 22:3).

Acknowledging that creation itself longs for redemption should inspire us to care for the non-human creatures and the environment, since we are stewards of God's creation.

 

[percho]

“For the creation was subjected to futility,”

Adam’s sin brought God’s curse upon the ground and the created order (Genesis 3:17–19). Decay, disorder, pain, and death now mark a world that no longer reflects its original harmony. Creation, planet earth, groans under this burden, awaiting the day when God removes the effects of the Fall (Romans 8:22).

“not by its own will,”

The natural world did not rebel against God or bring this condition upon itself. Human sin affected the earth entrusted to humanity’s stewardship, binding creation to the consequences of Adam’s disobedience.

“but because of the One who subjected it,”

God subjected the physical world of creation, the land, vegetation, animals, insects, birds, fish, etc, to the curse as a righteous judgment, just as He pronounced judgment upon Adam, Eve, and the serpent. His judgment was never detached from His mercy, for He immediately promised the coming Seed who would crush the serpent and undo the ruin caused by sin (Genesis 3:15).

“in hope”

God’s curse upon planet earth included the certain promise of restoration. Through Christ’s redemption, creation will ultimately be delivered from corruption and share in the glory of God’s redeemed children. The new heavens and new earth will display the full victory of God over sin, death, and the curse (Revelation 21:1–5; 22:3).

Acknowledging that creation itself longs for redemption should inspire us to care for the non-human creatures and the environment, since we are stewards of God's creation.

but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, 1 Peter 1:18,19 YLT

Does the above mean that before [not since] the foundation of the world Christ was going to die in order to redeem from the bondage of corruption which would be in the sons of God foreknown before the foundation of the world cf Eph 1:4,5?

Gen 2:2,3 KJV And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I say at this moment the creation is complete yet subjected to vanity, in hope.

That hope of the; precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's

Adam has yet to do, the sin and bring, the death.

 

[percho]

From Heb 2:14 he might destroy him having the power of [the] death -- that is, the devil --

One might ask. Did the devil need to be destroyed from the foundation of the world? Or, did the devil need to be destroyed before the foundation of the world?

I ask, before the foundation of the world how was God going to destroy him who had the power of the death -- that is, the devil?

 

[Van]

The man on the link says, the meaning of the men's names in ch 5 of Gen translates to:
"Man is appointed mortal sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort and rest."

That is the subjected vanity of the created world. My understanding of world is; created order out of the תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ tou bou of Gen 1:2 on the earth.

Subjected before the sin of Adam

I totally disagree. Humanity was subjected to futility as a consequence of Adam's sin is my view.

 

[Van]

From Heb 2:14 he might destroy him having the power of [the] death -- that is, the devil --

One might ask. Did the devil need to be destroyed from the foundation of the world? Or, did the devil need to be destroyed before the foundation of the world?

I ask, before the foundation of the world how was God going to destroy him who had the power of the death -- that is, the devil?

Not only did God not need to destroy the devil before or immediately after the fall of humanity, He arranged the fall. God put the tree, the test in the Garden, but also allowed the Serpent to engage in deception within the Garden. And remember, God had chosen His Redeemer, before the fall of man, thus God anticipated the Fall.

 

[Van]

“For the creation was subjected to futility,”

Adam’s sin brought God’s curse upon the ground and the created order (Genesis 3:17–19). Decay, disorder, pain, and death now mark a world that no longer reflects its original harmony. Creation, planet earth, groans under this burden, awaiting the day when God removes the effects of the Fall (Romans 8:22).

“not by its own will,”

The natural world did not rebel against God or bring this condition upon itself. Human sin affected the earth entrusted to humanity’s stewardship, binding creation to the consequences of Adam’s disobedience.

“but because of the One who subjected it,”

God subjected the physical world of creation, the land, vegetation, animals, insects, birds, fish, etc, to the curse as a righteous judgment, just as He pronounced judgment upon Adam, Eve, and the serpent. His judgment was never detached from His mercy, for He immediately promised the coming Seed who would crush the serpent and undo the ruin caused by sin (Genesis 3:15).

“in hope”

God’s curse upon planet earth included the certain promise of restoration. Through Christ’s redemption, creation will ultimately be delivered from corruption and share in the glory of God’s redeemed children. The new heavens and new earth will display the full victory of God over sin, death, and the curse (Revelation 21:1–5; 22:3).

Acknowledging that creation itself longs for redemption should inspire us to care for the non-human creatures and the environment, since we are stewards of God's creation.

If I am understanding this post correctly, it says "creation" (Romans 8:20-21) refers not only to humans but also to everything else created such as rocks and oceans.
I disagree. Fallen humanity was subjected to futility, being separated from God and condemned and unable to save themselves.

Your view rests, I think, on Genesis 3:17-19 where the ground is cursed, and thorns will grow on plants and humanity shall eat the plant of the field, or outside where beasts reside and also eat.

This harsh environment is the result of the fall, but nothing in this environment was subjected to futility, but still exists for it purpose, providing our physical environment. Only humans have the conscious awareness to experience "futility."

 

[percho]

From the foundation of the world?​

From not since.

in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; for not ourselves do we preach, but Christ Jesus -- Lord, and ourselves your servants because of Jesus; because it is God who said, Out of darkness light, to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:4-6

Eph 6:10-13 As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might; put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; because of this take ye up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to resist in the day of the evil, and all things having done -- to stand.

The god of this age was present in the darkness of this age in Gen 1:2.

The wrestling was never with blood and flesh. Not even with Adam who was created fleas and blood, out of the dust of the ground and to the dust of the ground he would return.

Yet it would be by flesh and blood that God would destroy the devil and his works. It would require sin, death and life out of death, redemption.. This would begin with Adam.

IMHO

 

[Van]

From the foundation of the world?​

From not since.

in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; for not ourselves do we preach, but Christ Jesus -- Lord, and ourselves your servants because of Jesus; because it is God who said, Out of darkness light, to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:4-6

Eph 6:10-13 As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might; put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; because of this take ye up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to resist in the day of the evil, and all things having done -- to stand.

The god of this age was present in the darkness of this age in Gen 1:2.

The wrestling was never with blood and flesh. Not even with Adam who was created fleas and blood, out of the dust of the ground and to the dust of the ground he would return.

Yet it would be by flesh and blood that God would destroy the devil and his works. It would require sin, death and life out of death, redemption.. This would begin with Adam.

IMHO

Since not from.

2 Corinthians 4:4-5 refers to the darkness of "this age" which is the age of grace, which began with the fall of humanity.
Ditto for Ephesians 6:10-13. Yes, Satan existed before the age of grace, but the fall of humanity initiated the age of grace.

And yes, the age of grace began after or since the fall of Adam, and not when Adam sinned. Subsequent to his sin, God causes the consequences, Adam and Eve's eyes were opened, referring to the corruption of their human spirits, they were made sinners, separated from God, and the wages of their sin was death, they would return to the dust.

But it really does not matter whether the phrase refers to when the foundation of the earth was created or when humanity's Fall occurred, the actions in view happened and still are happening after or since that temporal point in time occurred.

From creates confusion, since produces clarity.

 

[Ascetic X]

An age of grace began when God gave Adam and Eve skins to cover themselves.

 

[Van]

An age of grace began when God gave Adam and Eve skins to cover themselves.

That act was in response to their spiritual corruption, but even if you are correct, the age of grace started after or since and in response to the Fall of Humanity.

 

[Van]

Hebrews 4:3 NASB
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY ANGER,
THEY CERTAINLY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Here we have our phrase indicating a temporal point in time after which his works were finished.
Here the idea is that the opportunity to enter His rest was available since the down fall of humanity, and thus available to those who did not enter.

 

[Ben1445]

It is ridiculous to say since point A to point B or since one event in history until now or since an event till the next named event.
You go from point A in time to point B. You include from the beginning event to the end of the timeline.
On a timeline you go from one point to another. You can’t logically go since one point to another.
Luke 11:50-51 is a timeline of events. From the beginning to this generation, logical history from the earliest time to the time spoken. From Abel to Zacharias, written history from Genesis to the prophets. Not since Genesis to the prophets.

It may sound okay to say since. But that is like saying “Me and Henry are going the event center.” Common usage makes it familiar but not accurate. The easy way for this instance is remove Henry. “Me (is/are) going.” It is just not right to do with the language.
The real problem is that everyone and their brother is an “expert” and knows how to fix what has worked for the last 400+ years.

 

[Ascetic X]

Saying that “from the foundation of the world” means “since the down fall of humanity” is far fetched.

 

[Kai]

The Greek word translated "from" can be ambiguous. Depending on the context, it can carry the sense of either "before" or "since." I agree that we shouldn't automatically assume one meaning every time we encounter it.

I think Luke 11:50-51 makes a good case for understanding "from the foundation of the world" in a temporal sense, meaning "since the foundation of the world." Jesus connects the shedding of prophetic blood with a historical sequence beginning with Abel and ending with Zechariah.

That provides strong contextual support for the retrospective meaning.

 

[Ben1445]

I don’t have a problem with people saying since the foundation of the world.

But Luke 11:50-51 is giving an inclusive timeline. The right way to say it is from/to not since/to.

 

[Van]

It is ridiculous to say since point A to point B or since one event in history until now or since an event till the next named event.
You go from point A in time to point B. You include from the beginning event to the end of the timeline.
On a timeline you go from one point to another. You can’t logically go since one point to another.
Luke 11:50-51 is a timeline of events. From the beginning to this generation, logical history from the earliest time to the time spoken. From Abel to Zacharias, written history from Genesis to the prophets. Not since Genesis to the prophets.

It may sound okay to say since. But that is like saying “Me and Henry are going the event center.” Common usage makes it familiar but not accurate. The easy way for this instance is remove Henry. “Me (is/are) going.” It is just not right to do with the language.
The real problem is that everyone and their brother is an “expert” and knows how to fix what has worked for the last 400+ years.

1) Since WWII covers the time WWII ended until the present. But a year from now, the same phrase will cover a year in our future. So it is not ridiculous to say "since the foundation of the world refers to the time period to the end of the age.

2) Luke 11:50-51 demonstrates the phrase is used for a time period, not a point in time.

3) Since is clear, plain and accurate, from provides the opportunity for mischief. Here is a quote posted recently:

All I can say is the elect had their name written in the book before the foundations of time.​

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