Private Prayer language

[JonC]

So it would be okay to make up your own religion as long as you call it spirituality understood?

As long as it is not illegal people can and do make up religions claiming they are being spiritual.

We went to Sedona this year and everywhere you turned people were selling spiritual rocks and talking about some vortex (not the locals. They were collecting, polishing and selling rocks to the visiting idiots).

 

[JonC]

I do find it to be an offensive comparison to say that if you don’t believe in tongues it is like not believing in the risen Savior.

You mistakenly included me here paragraph. I never said that one who does not believe in tonges lacks a belief in Christ.

But I agree that that would be offensive. One's belief in tongues, predestination, the penal substitution theory of atonement, laying on of hands for healing, believer's baptism, open or closed communion, etc. is not what saves a person.


Based on your replies I think you have been misding my point.

My point was that in prayer I think most Christians come to a time when there are no words to express their prayer. At that point we pray but not in a way that edifies our mind, but it strengthens our spirit. Our fellowship with God is not dependent on human language.

I understand that you have never experienced that type of prayer. But your experience is not relevant.

There are some movements, like some sects within the Charismatic movement, that deny the need for edifying the mind and confuse "emotional" with "spiritual".

But there are other movements (rationalism, the intellectual movement) within some sects that deny the spiritual in favor of the carnal.

Both are equally dangerous to Christians.


I am grateful for the intercession of the Spirit when I lack the words to articulate my prayers.

 

[Salty]

This has been a great discussion! Many thoughts brought out.
BUt alas - at 100 posts:
This thread will be closed no sooner than: 0630 hrs GMT, 130 am EST, (Tue) 1030 pm PST (Mon)

 

[Ben1445]

You mistakenly included me here paragraph. I never said that one who does not believe in tonges lacks a belief in Christ.

No mistake.
You compared my not accepting your version of tongues with not believing in the risen Savior. You mentioned Thomas, remember?

 

[Ben1445]

As long as it is not illegal people can and do make up religions claiming they are being spiritual.

We went to Sedona this year and everywhere you turned people were selling spiritual rocks and talking about some vortex (not the locals. They were collecting, polishing and selling rocks to the visiting idiots).

And that is okay with you? You find that acceptable? That explains a lot!!

 

[JonC]

First, I agree with @John of Japan that "tongues" in the Greek is used to mean "a language". But this does not support xenoglossy over glossolalia as the latter has a language structure. If one spoke in tongues without an interpreter or in private it would not matter. A first century Christian speaking Late Old Chineese might as well be speaking utterances for which there are no words.

Glossolalia (non-language "tongues") comes from γλῶσσα (glōssa, tongues). If this was used in the 1st century church it would be called an unknown language even though it is no language at all.


We would be remiss if we did not mention that "tongues" (non-language utterances with a language structure) is not unique to early Chriatianity.

But why? Scientifically glossolalia is neurological. In religion it is a shift in brain activity associated with intense religious experiences.

In 1st century Corinth this occurred with the pagan cults. Cultists would focus intently in worshipping their deity (demons), science would say there is this neurological shift. The brain actively suppresses real language while allowing subcortical and speech-related regions to generate continuous vocalizations.

But the important part here is not the science. It is the why. The answer is intense religious experience, like prayer.

We cannot dismiss that it is possible that our prayer life, if intense, can reach points where there are no words in our language to express our prayer.

Granted, if your prayer is just going down a list of items rather than fellowship this will be foreign to your experience.

 

[JonC]

No mistake.
You compared my not accepting your version of tongues with not believing in the risen Savior. You mentioned Thomas, remember?

Lol... I am not calling you a fool but that was a foolish post.

You need to read your Bible. Thomas did believe in the risen Savior. He just needed the experience to get there.

That was my point. You are basing your beliefs about this issue on your own personal experiences.

 

[Ben1445]

My point was that in prayer I think most Christians come to a time when there are no words to express their prayer.

If you read my posts, I have already said that this is not what I am talking about. This is a very common thing.

At that point we pray but not in a way that edifies our mind, but it strengthens our spirit. Our fellowship with God is not dependent on human language.

So if you mean that you start babbling like the pentecostals, I disagree. If you mean that you start moaning and groaning like you are either sick or a caveman, you have a different personality than I do for sure.

I understand that you have never experienced that type of prayer. But your experience is not relevant.

You don’t understand because you don’t listen to what I have said. I don’t know why I try to have a discussion with you. It is hopeless. You are dead set on one upping the conversation so you ignore the fact that I have continually said that I am not talking about being at a loss for words.

But if when you don’t know what to say you fill in with some kind of ooga booga mumbling, you are just putting on a show for yourself.

 

[Ben1445]

Lol... I am not calling you a fool but that was a foolish post.

Don’t kid yourself. You just did exactly what you said you were not doing.

You need to read your Bible. Thomas did believe in the risen Savior. He just needed the experience to get there.

That was my point. You are basing your beliefs about this issue on your own personal experiences.

Like i said, I find your comparison offensive.

 

[JonC]

And that is okay with you? You find that acceptable? That explains a lot!!

Yes. It is fine with me.

I prefer the Christian congregation be separate from the World. If you make up your own religion then it separates you from Christianity.

If you want to discuss your support for welcoming the World into our churches then start another thread.

 

[Ben1445]

We cannot dismiss that it is possible that our prayer life, if intense, can reach points where there are no words in our language to express our prayer.

If there are no words for us to express our thoughts then one should not expect mumbling noises to do a better job.

 

[JonC]

If you read my posts, I have already said that this is not what I am talking about. This is a very common thing.

But you argue against me and I have repeatedly posted this IS what I am talking about.

 

[Ben1445]

Yes. It is fine with me.

I prefer the Christian congregation be separate from the World. If you make up your own religion then it separates you from Christianity.

If you want to discuss your support for welcoming the World into our churches then start another thread.

I don’t. That is part of the reason I reject babbling.

 

[Ben1445]

But you argue against me and I have repeatedly posted this IS what I am talking about.

That is not the topic.

 

[JonC]

If there are no words for us to express our thoughts then one should not expect mumbling noises to do a better job.

It is not the noises doing the job.

When human beings are intently praying or in a religious experience to the point beyond words it is common to have verbal expressions.

Scientists say this is a shift in brain function.

I always viewed the mumbling as a physical need to vocalize something.

 

[JonC]

That is not the topic.

Topics change (thread drift). You were just babbling without realizing the shift had occurred. You were "speaking in tongues".

 

[David Lamb]

Sorry. I got lost in the conversation and replied with sarcasm. I don’t actually mean that.
I said it because I see a danger in taking babbling tongues into your closet and putting a stamp of approval on “private tongues” where they are not acceptable publicly.

What I was told is that since I don’t babble in private, I’m not allowed to voice my opinions or beliefs.

I said that as a check to what has now even been compared to not believing in Jesus.
@JonC
I do find it to be an offensive comparison to say that if you don’t believe in tongues it is like not believing in the risen Savior.

Thanks for explaining, and sorry for misunderstanding!

 

[Ben1445]

Topics change (thread drift). You were just babbling without realizing the shift had occurred. You were "speaking in tongues".

I would say that the drift is the babbling and staying on topic is good reasoning.
But we do live in the times where good is called bad and bad is called good.

I won’t call babbling good.

 

[JonC]

I would say that the drift is the babbling and staying on topic is good reasoning.
But we do live in the times where good is called bad and bad is called good.

I won’t call babbling good.

Yet Paul said he "babbled" more than all of the congregation and wished all "babbled". God says this "babbling" edifies the spirit.

It is not about calling something "bad" "good". It is about you calling something God's Word says is "good" "bad".

But I know that you will never call a prayer "good" unless it can be expressed in carnal terms.


When you are praying and you speak in a tongue that cannot be understood by men (when you, in your spirit but not your mind, speak mysteries) what words do you use? (1 Cor 14:2)

When you pray in a tongue (when your spirit prays but your mind does not understand the words) what words do you use? (1 Cor 14:14)

I am just curious. Do you speak Japaneese (assuming you do not know that language)? Or maybe a language long forgotten? Or a tribal language.


You genuinely seem to desire to be an expert about something you have no knowledge.


For my part, I have never spoken in tongues, nor have I been in a church where tongues are spoken.

I can only think of speaking in the spirit without the mind understanding as praying when there are no words to express that prayer (as I have experiences this). But my mumbling is not something I believe would qualify as "tongues" as the quite sounds are not (to my knowledge) expressing anything except that I am focused on something other than a cognitive exercise.


The difference between you and I is not kniwkedge (both of us lack real knowledge of speaking without comprehending with our minds what is spoken).

We differ in that I believe God's words (that some are gifted with the gift of spiritual verbal expressions where there mind lacks comprehension of the expression but their spirit is edified) although I lack that gift while you reject His words because you lack that gift.

 

[Ascetic X]

Some people do not want Christianity to have anything supernatural in it, especially when it comes to things they have not experienced.

They may reject speaking in tongues, working of miracles, divine healing, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits, casting out demons, curing mental illness, receiving messages from God in dreams, experiencing a wide spread revival, receiving impossible answers to prayer, leading an unsaved person to the new birth, etc.

They reduce Christianity to a creed, a set of beliefs they agree with, and think that is enough.

Because certain charlatans have faked or improperly engaged in spiritual practices mentioned in the Bible, these doubting Thomases reject the practices altogether.

They become very hostile toward anyone suggesting that there could be valid and biblically proper ways to engage in these practices. If they have not done it, then nobody else can either.