Faith # 7

[Ascetic X]

Jesus would not have preached, “Repent and believe the gospel” if unsaved people had no free will and no ability to obey His command.

 

[Brightfame52]

It's ensured that God's Elect will be given Faith to believe.

Paul writing to the believers in Thessalonica writes 2 Thessalonians 2:13:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

As a result of having been Chosen from the beginning, there's an effectual work of the Spirit unto them unto belief of the Truth, which is also Faith—for Paul even uses the same Greek noun for Faith (pistis) but here translated belief of the truth! 36

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[Ascetic X]

Brightfame52 said:

It's ensured that God's Elect will be given Faith to believe.

Paul writing to the believers in Thessalonica writes 2 Thessalonians 2:13:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

As a result of having been Chosen from the beginning, there's an effectual work of the Spirit unto them unto belief of the Truth, which is also Faith—for Paul even uses the same Greek noun for Faith (pistis) but here translated belief of the truth! 36

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But that verse does not say that God put that “belief of the truth” into us, bypassing our will.

The Spirit sanctifies us because we choose to believe the truth of the gospel.

 

[Brightfame52]

Everyone who has been chosen of God in Christ before the foundation[Eph 1:4] will be in due time recipient of the Spirits sanctifying work so that He sets them apart unto belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. Thats why Paul calls it also the Faith of Gods Elect that acknowledges the Truth Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Acknowledging the Truth and Belief of the Truth are the same, so all of Gods Elect will in Gods time acknowledge the truth. 36

 

[Brightfame52]

The Chosen of God before the world began and before the elect had being, they had been by the preordination appointed to believe Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Brightfame52]

Peter writing to believers wrote 1 Pet 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Peter calls them Elect unto obedience, or Faith. Again being elect ensures Faith or Obedience. 36

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ's own words demonstrate that those given to Him by the Father, His elect sheep, shall certainly come to Him in faith.

John 6:37

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

Notice the order and certainty of Christ's words.

“All that the Father giveth me” denotes the Father's elect, those whom He has given to His Son. They belong to Christ by the Father's sovereign purpose.

“Shall come to me” denotes the certainty of their coming to Christ in faith. Christ does not say they might come, or that their coming depends upon an independent exercise of freewill. He declares that they shall come.

The Father's giving is the cause; their coming is the certain result. Their faith does not make them the Father's gift to Christ. Rather, because the Father has given them to Christ, they shall come to Him.

Christ further explains this in John 6:44:

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

And again in John 6:65:

“No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”

So where does saving faith originate? Not in the independent ability of the unregenerate sinner, but in the gracious work of God. Philippians 1:29 declares:

“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.”

This is the distinction between God's sovereign work and man's response. The Father gives His sheep to Christ, the Spirit gives them life and grants faith, and they consequently come to Christ willingly.

They do not become Christ's sheep by believing; they believe because they are His sheep.

 

[LaGrange]

Natural mans religion always seeks to deprive Christ/God of their Glory due. One way they do this is by attributing Faith Heb 11:1 unto the natural man, which is a lie. Sure man may have a natural faith, but that has absolutely nothing to do with God in Salvation. But the Faith in God that has to do with Salvation in and through Jesus Christ, who is God, comes from Christ and is part of the Glory He received from the Father when He raised Him from the dead.

My Comment: You are saying that it is taking away God’s glory if you attribute natural faith in man to the faith we receive from Jesus Christ. You quote Heb 11:1. I think you mean that the Arminians believe faith before full regeneration causes regeneration and justification and you disagree with that. We would agree with you that full regeneration precedes Faith. However, we would agree with the Arminians in that, before full regeneration, there is a kind of faith we call an intellectual faith (Rom 10:14-17). Before full regeneration, intellectual faith is developed by audibly hearing scripture preached. The Arminians are right on this hearing as being dispositive. It “prepares” us for full regeneration. This means that when you hear preaching before you are saved, God’s grace [prevenient - Ps 58:11 (Ps 59:10 KJV)] is working inside you at the same time (precedes the preaching). Sometimes it may not seem like it. They can hear with their heart! It’s just that their wills (hearts) are not perfect yet. There can be certain impediments too, such as being mentally challenged, too young, not feeling well, etc. The key is this: Their faith is not dead as calvinists believe and they are not resisting God. They are there. At least, they are not totally resisting. During this time (before full regeneration), those who are moved by the Spirit get what we would call “illuminations”. An example would be seeing something in scripture before you hear it or sort of like “reading between the lines”. The catholic view is that these help prepare us for election to justification (full regeneration) which occurs at baptism. They move the soul or stimulate our souls and develop certain required dispositions in us (ex: recognizing that we are sinners, fear of divine Justice, begin to love God, etc). These dispositions don’t have to be perfect and God decides when we are ready to be baptized through the ministry of the priest or deacon. It’s in God’s Providence when we are baptized. Baptism is an effect of predestination. Baptism is where we receive and use our Faith to willingly come to Christ (Rom 10:9-13). We depart from the Arminian view in that this intellectual faith is perfective and causes partial regeneration. We say it prepares us for full regeneration at baptism so there is a gap between the two. One doesn’t cause the other.

Lets look at 1 Pet 1:21

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him[Christ] glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


Faith and Hope in God, in the realm of Salvation, is the result of God giving Christ Glory after raising Him from the Dead.

Thats what 1 Pet 1:21 tells us. Key to understanding this is the word that:

that your faith and hope might be in God.

Its the greek Conjunction hóste and it means:

so that, therefore, so then, so as to.

hṓste (a conjunction, derived from 5613 /hōs, "as" and 5037 /té, "both-and") – wherefore (with the result that both . . . ), connecting cause to necessary effect which emphasizes the result (the combined, end-accomplishment). The result involved then is the combination of both elements in the correlation, underscoring the inevitable effect of the paired elements.


So understand that according to Peter here Faith in God is the necessary effect, the inevitable of effect of God raising up Christ from the dead and giving Him Glory !

My Comment: You quote 1 Pet 1:21 to say that “your faith and hope might be in God” comes AFTER or is received from “God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him[Christ] glory”. I think you interpret this to mean that your faith comes after full regeneration (after the resurrection)?

Thats why Peter writes in his 2 nd epistle to these same believers 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 29

My Comment: I think you are saying your faith comes from the righteousness of Christ. Again, full regeneration precedes saving Faith.

I do have a couple of questions:

Since you receive Faith at full regeneration by hearing the gospel, does hearing the gospel happen “one time” and this “one time” causes Faith which causes justification? After that first time, the next time you hear preaching and receive Faith, are you in the sanctification process?

Full regeneration precedes Faith. What is Faith for then? (Since you are already regenerated). I know you will say to cause justification. It seems that if you are already fully regenerated, that would cause justification by itself?


Faith - Catholic View

I thought that since this thread is about "Faith", I would introduce the viewers to the catholic understanding of Faith.


In Scripture, the term “Faith” can be a gift, virtue or fruit (not just a gift; not just something received):


Baptism (Full Regeneration)(Rom 10:9-13)

At the point of baptism, Faith is all of these:

Belief (Gift and Virtue - mainly a virtue)

Faith as a gift - it is a gift because it is received by grace (Eph 2:8)(Baptism - Eph 2:4-5)

Faith (belief) as a theological virtue - saving Faith = believing (infused by charity) (believe - Rom 4:3, Rom 10:9)

Faith as a theological virtue that works through charity (Gal 5:6) to produce fruit - When this Faith (belief) is used in an act, it is a work (John 6:29, 1 Thess 1:3, James 2:22, etc) and produces fruit (reward - ex: life everlasting - Rom 6:22)

Faith as a fruit - Gal 5:23 - Faith is a fruit

To make an analogy

Let’s say I receive a Christmas present (Gift) and let’s say it’s a power tool. It is a gift because I received it but mainly it is something I am suppose to use (power tool = Virtue). When I work to complete a job with the power tool (virtue), I obtain a finished product (fruit or reward). So Faith is a gift, virtue and fruit.

 

[Brightfame52]

However, we would agree with the Arminians in that, before full regeneration, there is a kind of faith we call an intellectual faith (Rom 10:14-17)... It “prepares” us for full regeneration... During this time (before full regeneration), those who are moved by the Spirit get what we would call “illuminations”... The catholic view is that these help prepare us for election to justification (full regeneration) which occurs at baptism... Full regeneration precedes Faith. What is Faith for then? (Since you are already regenerated). I know you will say to cause justification.

Lagrange, thank you for laying out the Roman Catholic position so clearly and systematically. Comparing our frameworks side by side reveals the exact dividing line between a monergistic, finished-work gospel and a sacramental, preparatory system.

You ask a couple of direct questions about how justification, regeneration, and faith relate in my view. You assumed I would say faith exists "to cause justification." That is a fundamental misunderstanding of my position. Let's look at the scriptural mechanics that answer your questions and address your system of "partial regeneration" and baptismal preparation.

1. Answering Your Questions: What Faith Is For (And What Causes Justification)

You asked: "Full regeneration precedes Faith. What is Faith for then? (Since you are already regenerated). I know you will say to cause justification."
Faith does NOT cause justification. Justification is a purely forensic, legal act in the court of God that was eternally decreed in Christ (Phase I - The Eternal Phase, based on Christ standing as our Surety in Hebrews 7:22) and objectively finished at Calvary (Phase II - The Legal Phase, when Christ shed His blood for His sheep, Romans 5:9–10).

If justification had to be "caused" by human faith or water baptism, then the blood of Christ did not actually justify anyone at the cross—it only made justification possible.

So, if regeneration precedes faith, and faith does not cause justification, what is faith for?

• Faith is the spiritual eye and hand of the quickened soul. When the Holy Spirit monergistically raises a dead sinner to life (Phase III - The Vital Phase, Titus 3:5), that new life must have a way to perceive and lay hold of Christ.
• Faith brings subjective realization and comfort. Faith does not create our legal peace with God; rather, it receives and apprehends the finished righteousness of Christ into the believer's conscience (Romans 5:1, 11).
• Hearing the Gospel: Hearing the Word does not "prepare" a dead corpse for regeneration. Instead, the Holy Spirit uses the preaching of the Gospel (Phase IV - The Practical Phase) to call out and instruct those whom He has already quickened, feeding and growing their faith throughout their entire life of sanctification.

2. Scripture Rejects "Partial Regeneration" and Unregenerate Preparation

Your system teaches that before full regeneration at water baptism, an unregenerate sinner develops "intellectual faith," receives Spirit-given "illuminations," begins to love God, and is "not totally resisting."
This completely contradicts the Holy Spirit’s diagnosis of the unregenerate man. Scripture knows nothing of a "partially regenerated" corpse or a preparatory disposition that earns election to justification:

• Dead, Not Partially Alive: Paul does not say the unregenerate are partially sick or preparing for life. He declares they are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). A dead man does not "begin to love God" or stop resisting on his own.
• Total Enmity, Not Preparatory Dispositions: Before the new birth, the natural mind is not developing holy dispositions toward God. Look at Romans 8:7: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." And 1 Corinthians 2:14 explicitly states that the natural man "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
• Election Is Unconditional, Not Prepared For: You state that these dispositions "help prepare us for election to justification." Scripture flatly denies that anything in the creature precedes or prepares for election. Romans 9:11 states that God's purpose according to election stands "not of works, but of him that calleth"—before the children are even born or have done any good or evil.

3. Regeneration Is by the Spirit, Not Water Baptism

Finally, your framework ties "full regeneration" and justification to the ritual of water baptism performed by a priest or deacon.
Scripture explicitly separates physical water rituals from the sovereign, invisible work of the Holy Spirit:

• John 3:8: Jesus compares the new birth to the wind that blows "where it listeth"—completely sovereign and independent of human ceremonies or clerical schedules.
• 1 Peter 3:21: Peter explicitly clarifies that baptism is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Water baptism is an outward confession of a conscience already cleansed by Christ's blood and quickened by the Spirit.
• 1 Corinthians 1:17: Paul states, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." If full regeneration and justification only occurred through water baptism, Paul would never have separated the saving Gospel from the act of baptizing.

Conclusion

In 1 Peter 1:21, Peter confirms that our faith and hope are the inevitable effect (hōste) of God raising Christ from the dead and giving Him glory. Because Christ's resurrection life is triumphant, He sends the Holy Spirit to sovereignly quicken His elect (Titus 3:5), and through that grace (Acts 18:27), they believe and enjoy the salvation He already finished at Calvary.
There is no gap of "partial regeneration," no human preparation for election, and no dependence on ritual water. Salvation is an unbroken monologue of triune grace from eternity to eternity, and God gets 100% of the glory.

 

[Brightfame52]

That no man can come to Christ/believe in Christ except of an intervention by the Father as stated in Jn 6:44 and implied in Jn 6:65, is a testification that its solely by the Power of the Spirit that causes one to believe, by birthing Faith in us. So the ability to believe in Christ is from God. 36

 

[LaGrange]

Lagrange, thank you for laying out the Roman Catholic position so clearly and systematically. Comparing our frameworks side by side reveals the exact dividing line between a monergistic, finished-work gospel and a sacramental, preparatory system.

You ask a couple of direct questions about how justification, regeneration, and faith relate in my view. You assumed I would say faith exists "to cause justification." That is a fundamental misunderstanding of my position. Let's look at the scriptural mechanics that answer your questions and address your system of "partial regeneration" and baptismal preparation.

1. Answering Your Questions: What Faith Is For (And What Causes Justification)

You asked: "Full regeneration precedes Faith. What is Faith for then? (Since you are already regenerated). I know you will say to cause justification."
Faith does NOT cause justification. Justification is a purely forensic, legal act in the court of God that was eternally decreed in Christ (Phase I - The Eternal Phase, based on Christ standing as our Surety in Hebrews 7:22) and objectively finished at Calvary (Phase II - The Legal Phase, when Christ shed His blood for His sheep, Romans 5:9–10).

My Comment: I’m not sure if you have heard of the 5 causes of justification. It’s based on Aristotle’s Four Causes. It’s a philosophical tool. I have a book by Norman Geisler, “Come Let us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking”. He explains the five causes.

Here’s Calvin’s Five Causes
(all of these happen simultaneously at the effectual call):

Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xiv, 17)

Efficient Cause - mercy* of the Heavenly Father
Instrumental Cause - Faith (Hearing - Rom 10:17)
Formal Cause - Faith (Belief, Trust)
Final Cause - proof of divine justice

* mercy = irresistible grace

Material Cause - Imputed Righteousness (Christ’s Righteousness that’s in Christ only)

Notice: The instrumental cause and the formal cause of justification is “Faith”. This means that when you are fully regenerated you hear the gospel and assent to and receive Faith and it passes to the formal cause of Faith (belief, trust) and that Faith “causes” justification. So faith is the “cause” of justification.

If justification had to be "caused" by human faith or water baptism, then the blood of Christ did not actually justify anyone at the cross—it only made justification possible.

So, if regeneration precedes faith, and faith does not cause justification, what is faith for?

• Faith is the spiritual eye and hand of the quickened soul. When the Holy Spirit monergistically raises a dead sinner to life (Phase III - The Vital Phase, Titus 3:5), that new life must have a way to perceive and lay hold of Christ.

My Comment: We use Titus 3:5 to prove Baptismal Regeneration - “Laver of Regeneration”. I can see Faith as a spiritual eye. It illumines our path (John 8:12).

Faith brings subjective realization and comfort. Faith does not create our legal peace with God; rather, it receives and apprehends the finished righteousness of Christ into the believer's conscience (Romans 5:1, 11).

My Comment: I agree but subjective realization and comfort can change. After you are a Christian and you sin a few times, that feeling can change. You are probably saying that it stays with you no matter what. I could agree with that because we agree that there is a dead Faith that can come even after the effectual call for those loaded with besetting sins. When you sin mortally, you lose the virtues of hope and Charity but not faith (James 2:19). Also, I think you are probably saying that through Faith you receive graces (finished righteousness) that effect your conscience and bring peace. Those are the fruits of faith when it is united to charity. You must have both to have true peace (1 Cor 13:2).

• Hearing the Gospel: Hearing the Word does not "prepare" a dead corpse for regeneration. Instead, the Holy Spirit uses the preaching of the Gospel (Phase IV - The Practical Phase) to call out and instruct those whom He has already quickened, feeding and growing their faith throughout their entire life of sanctification.

My Comment: Even the “elect” are under common grace or the common call before the effectual call. I know Calvinism denies internal grace before the effectual call but I still would ask: Why are the future elect there at church? Must be something going on inside? I gave the example of that guy who would rather be fishing on Sunday morning than sitting in church.

Examples of preparatory or Prevenient graces:

Amos 4:12 - be prepared to meet thy God, O Israel, 1 Sam 7:3 - prepare your hearts unto the Lord Ps 58:11 (Ps 59:10 KJV) - My God, his mercy shall prevent me, Ps 78:8 (Ps 79:8 KJV) - let thy mercies speedily prevent us, Lam 5:21 - Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, Zech 1:3 -Turn ye to me, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will turn to you (convert and turning is man’s free Will which is drawing without compulsion; this can happen only with God’s Grace so it’s a Prevenient grace. Man cannot prepare himself). Matt 3:3 - Prepare ye the way of the Lord, Eph 2:10 - good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them, Rom 9:23 on the vessels of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory

Christ prepares us by His grace but we must obey and not resist.

I know one of the NT stories you use to prove that we are a corpse is the raising of Lazarus (John 11:1-46). Augustine used that to show the sacrament of Penance (aka Confession - Augustine, Sermon (Benedictine) 67.1.2). A sacrament would raise a soul from the dead because it infuses sanctifying grace. Lazarus in the grave for four days and stinketh signifies mortal sin.

Here’s how Christ prepared Lazarus:

Christ commands Lazarus to come forth (John 11:43) - Jesus made Lazarus alive (prepared) before he called and raised him:
He was lying down yet alive (preparation)
Lazarus heard the Lord - He sat up and then stood - obeys (preparation) (John 11:43-44)
Lazarus comes forth (John 11:43) - Lazarus obeys and walks out - raised (sacrament of penance) - coming forth is his Act of Faith and then Jesus commanded that the bands (sins) be removed.

The amount of time for preparation varies according to Aquinas. It can be sudden as it was here.

Here’s how Christ prepared Lazarus through others:

Lazarus was already in the church - Lazarus was in the family (church). He was a friend of Jesus (John 11:5).
Intercession of the church - Martha and Mary interceded for their brother Lazarus. (John 11:3)
Removal of the stone (John 11:39) - this signifies the removing of the obstacles of grace = hardness of heart or lack of contrition for sin
Martha’s Faith (John 11:20-28) - Martha exercised her faith on Lazarus’ behalf
Jesus’ prayer (John 11:41-42) - Jesus’ prayed before the raising of lazarus

2. Scripture Rejects "Partial Regeneration" and Unregenerate Preparation

Your system teaches that before full regeneration at water baptism, an unregenerate sinner develops "intellectual faith," receives Spirit-given "illuminations," begins to love God, and is "not totally resisting."
This completely contradicts the Holy Spirit’s diagnosis of the unregenerate man. Scripture knows nothing of a "partially regenerated" corpse or a preparatory disposition that earns election to justification:

• Dead, Not Partially Alive: Paul does not say the unregenerate are partially sick or preparing for life. He declares they are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). A dead man does not "begin to love God" or stop resisting on his own.

My Comment: Eph 2:1 is referring to the effect of the sacrament in Eph 2:5 = Baptism (Eph 2:5 = cross reference to Col 2:12-13)

Total Enmity, Not Preparatory Dispositions: Before the new birth, the natural mind is not developing holy dispositions toward God. Look at Romans 8:7: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." And 1 Corinthians 2:14 explicitly states that the natural man "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

My Comment: The natural mind does develop dispositions with God’s prevenient grace. Rom 8 is mostly about AFTER you are a Christian. Notice: Paul is warning christians (fully regenerated) not to walk in the flesh (Rom 8:7). Glorification is conditional according to how we prepare with God’s prevenient grace (Rom 8:13). We should persevere (Rom 8:17). Aquinas says 1 Cor 2:14 is about not putting worldly things first. Even a Christian can do that. This doesn’t mean that your are automatically a sensual man before the effectual call.

 

[LaGrange]

• Election Is Unconditional, Not Prepared For: You state that these dispositions "help prepare us for election to justification." Scripture flatly denies that anything in the creature precedes or prepares for election. Romans 9:11 states that God's purpose according to election stands "not of works, but of him that calleth"—before the children are even born or have done any good or evil.

My Comment: Not really. Election to grace (Rom 11:5) precedes the effectual call. Also, we are born with a conscience* (Rom 2:15, Rom 9:1) and the natural virtues (too many to count) so we are not totally depraved. We were each created by God. Total inability, yes, due to original sin, but God’s prevenient grace precedes full regeneration so it doesn’t matter (Apoc 3:20, James 4:8).

* conscience - mentioned 32 times in the NT (KJV) - conscience is the natural law

Rom 9:11 - It’s interesting that you bring up Rom 9:11. I know you see monergism there. Rom 9:11 is really about election to grace. The whole chapter of Rom 9 is really about preparation. I’m sure we’ll get into that eventually.

Augustine, On Nature and Grace 31.35
(prevenient and subsequent grace):

“He anticipates (prevents) us, however, that we may be healed; but then He will also follow us (subsequent), that being healed we may grow healthy and strong. He anticipates (prevents) us that we may be called; He will follow us (subsequent) that we may be glorified. He anticipates us that we may lead godly lives; He will follow us that we may always live with Him, because without Him we can do nothing (John 15:5). Now the Scriptures refer to both these operations of grace. There is both this: “The God of my mercy shall anticipate (prevent) me,” [Ps 58:11(Ps 59:10 KJV)] - Thy mercy shall prevent me.”

3. Regeneration Is by the Spirit, Not Water Baptism

Finally, your framework ties "full regeneration" and justification to the ritual of water baptism performed by a priest or deacon.
Scripture explicitly separates physical water rituals from the sovereign, invisible work of the Holy Spirit:

• John 3:8: Jesus compares the new birth to the wind that blows "where it listeth"—completely sovereign and independent of human ceremonies or clerical schedules.

My Comment: John 3:8 follows John 3:5 which is definitely baptism. John 3:5 Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost.. (also Acts 2:38 - Baptism for the remission of sins)

1 Peter 3:21: Peter explicitly clarifies that baptism is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Water baptism is an outward confession of a conscience already cleansed by Christ's blood and quickened by the Spirit.

My Comment: 1 Pet 3:21 “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” means it’s not the external rite of cleansing our bodies that, by itself, produces grace and spiritual regeneration.

The water of the flood signified washing away sin.
Noah preparing the ark (1 Pet 3:20 - preparing) signifies preparation before baptism.
The ark signifies the church (Apoc 11:19)

“…but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (DRV)
This means we must come with the dispositions of faith and a true repentance, which is here called the examination (lit. the interrogation) of a good conscience.

When the KJV uses “answer” instead of “examination”, it can mean the same thing. “Answer” in Strong’s is G1905,1906 = to enquire.

• 1 Corinthians 1:17: Paul states, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." If full regeneration and justification only occurred through water baptism, Paul would never have separated the saving Gospel from the act of baptizing.

My Comment: Paul was a bishop and his main office was to teach but he could baptize (Matt 28:19). It was usually the office of the priest or deacon to baptize (1 Cor 1:17)

I see whasimt the main problem is with baptism. You think pouring water is all that is happening. There are five causes and all 5 of these causes happen simultaneously at baptism. So it’s not just water that is poured, It’s also God the Father (efficient cause), God the Son (meritorious cause) and God the Holy Ghost (formal cause) causing justification (full regeneration).

Catholic 5 Causes of Justification:

Final Cause - Glory of God, Eternal Life (Titus 3:7)
Efficient Cause - Merciful God (Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 6:11 )
Meritorious Cause - Jesus Christ who merited Justification by His Passion on the wood of the cross and made Satisfaction ( Rom 5:10, Eph 2:4,
Instrumental Cause - Baptism - the Sacrament of Faith
Formal Cause - Justification (Sanctifying Grace) - Justice of God - not that by which He himself is just, but that by which He maketh us just (Rom 4:23)

[Council of Trent, Session VI, Ch VII, Denz 799 (1528)]

Conclusion

In 1 Peter 1:21, Peter confirms that our faith and hope are the inevitable effect (hōste) of God raising Christ from the dead and giving Him glory. Because Christ's resurrection life is triumphant, He sends the Holy Spirit to sovereignly quicken His elect (Titus 3:5), and through that grace (Acts 18:27), they believe and enjoy the salvation He already finished at Calvary.
There is no gap of "partial regeneration," no human preparation for election, and no dependence on ritual water. Salvation is an unbroken monologue of triune grace from eternity to eternity, and God gets 100% of the glory.

My Comment: We don’t believe in “partial regeneration”. The Arminians do. Preparation is done by God through His Prevenient grace*. God decides (God’s free will) when we are prepared and then elects us to justification through baptism. For us, there is a gap between preparation and justification. One does not cause the other. See my thread on the golden chain and the three views and look at the flowchart and you will see the dark gap between preparation and justification.

*Prevenient Grace - we call actual grace most of the time

 

[Brightfame52]

PART ONE

Lagrange said:

I’m not sure if you have heard of the 5 causes of justification. It’s based on Aristotle’s Four Causes. It’s a philosophical tool.

Actually, Calvin discusses four causes, not five, in Institutes, Book III, Chapter XIV, Section 17:

• Efficient cause — the Father's mercy and free love.
• Material cause — Christ and His obedience.
• Formal or instrumental cause — faith.
• Final cause — the demonstration of God's righteousness and praise of His goodness.

You have separated the formal and instrumental descriptions of faith into two separate causes. Calvin does not present them as two independent causes.

More importantly, we must distinguish between the ground of justification and the instrument by which justification is apprehended.

Christ's obedience and blood are the ground of righteousness. I do not believe faith is the meritorious ground of justification or that it makes Christ's sacrifice effective. My disagreement with Calvin's formulation is that I do not regard faith as an instrument that brings about God's forensic act of justification. I believe justification is grounded in God's eternal purpose and Christ's suretyship, objectively accomplished at Calvary.

This means that when you are fully regenerated you hear the gospel and assent to and receive Faith... and that Faith “causes” justification. So faith is the “cause” of justification.

You have not demonstrated that faith causes justification. You have only repeated that faith has an instrumental role.

There is a difference between receiving or apprehending something and causing that thing to exist.

Romans 5:9 says we are justified by Christ's blood, and verse 10 says we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son. Christ actually accomplished redemption. Faith does not go back and complete the work of the Cross.

That is why I distinguish the Legal, Vital, and Practical Phases: Christ accomplished the Legal work; the Spirit gives life; the regenerated sinner believes. Faith is necessary as the Practical response, but it is not the cause of Christ's Legal accomplishment.

We use Titus 3:5 to prove Baptismal Regeneration - “Laver of Regeneration”.

You are assuming that Titus 3:5 teaches water baptism simply because Paul uses the language of washing.

The passage says God saved us according to His mercy, “by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.” Paul identifies God's mercy and the renewing work of the Spirit. He does not identify water baptism as the efficient cause of regeneration.

Ephesians 2:4–5 makes the point even clearer: God, rich in mercy, quickened us when we were dead in sins. God gives life to the dead. That is the work of divine mercy.

Subjective realization and comfort can change. When you sin mortally, you lose the virtues of hope and Charity but not faith (James 2:19).

I am not arguing that a believer's subjective comfort never fluctuates. Assurance can certainly weaken through sin. But that does not change the objective ground of his acceptance with God.

James 2:19 says even devils believe there is one God and tremble. James is exposing empty profession without the fruits of spiritual life. He is not teaching that a regenerate person loses charity through mortal sin while retaining a saving faith.

Faith does not create Christ's righteousness or make His blood effective. Faith apprehends and rests upon what Christ has accomplished.

Even the “elect” are under common grace or the common call before the effectual call. Why are the future elect there at church? Must be something going on inside?

You are confusing outward circumstances and common operations of grace with regeneration.

An unregenerate person might attend church because of upbringing, conscience, religious fear, family influence, habit, or social relationships. Church attendance does not prove that someone has received a preparatory spiritual disposition toward God.

I am not denying God's providence, restraint of sin, or the outward call of the Gospel. I am distinguishing those things from the inward impartation of spiritual life.

Romans 8:7 says the carnal mind is enmity against God and “is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” First Corinthians 2:14 says the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned.

You cannot simply insert a developing spiritual disposition into those passages and call it prevenient grace. You must establish that doctrine from Scripture.

Consider the passages you supplied:

• Amos 4:12 is a warning of judgment, not a teaching about preparatory grace.
• 1 Samuel 7:3 calls Israel to return to the Lord; it does not explain the origin of spiritual ability.
• Lamentations 5:21 actually asks God, “Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned.”
• Zechariah 1:3 is a call to repentance and a promise of God's favor, not proof of an independently supplied human ability.
• Ephesians 2:10 says God prepared good works for His people to walk in, not that He prepares unregenerate sinners to regenerate themselves.
• Romans 9:23 speaks of God preparing vessels of mercy unto glory.

These passages do not establish the doctrine of prevenient grace in the sense you are using it.

Christ prepares us by His grace but we must obey and not resist.

I agree that believers obey. The question is whether their obedience is an independent contribution that determines whether God's saving purpose succeeds.

Philippians 2:13 says:

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

God works not merely to make obedience possible, but both to will and to do. That is the difference between grace that merely assists the human will and grace that renews the will so that the believer willingly obeys.

 

[Brightfame52]

PART TWO

Christ commands Lazarus to come forth (John 11:43) - Jesus made Lazarus alive (prepared) before he called and raised him. He was lying down yet alive, heard the Lord, sat up and stood, and then came forth. Coming forth was his act of faith and then Jesus commanded that the bands be removed.

This interpretation reverses the point of the passage.

Lazarus was not lying in the tomb alive, waiting for a preparatory process. He had been dead four days. Martha even said:

“Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.” (John 11:39)

Jesus then cried, “Lazarus, come forth” (v. 43), and Lazarus came forth.

You have inserted stages into the account that John never gives us. Where does John say Lazarus first sat up, then stood, exercised faith, and received life through a sacrament of penance? He says none of those things.

The grave clothes were removed after Lazarus came forth. They did not give him life. The account demonstrates Christ's authority over death, not baptismal regeneration or sacramental penance.

Lazarus was already in the church and family. Martha and Mary interceded for him. The stone represents obstacles of grace, and Martha exercised her faith on Lazarus' behalf.

Again, you are turning details of a historical account into sacramental symbols without showing that John intended them that way.

John records that Mary and Martha sent for Jesus, that the stone was removed, and that Jesus prayed to the Father. But he never says these things represent preparatory grace, the church imparting life, or Martha's faith being applied to Lazarus.

Jesus explains His public prayer in John 11:40–42: it was so those standing by might believe that the Father had sent Him. Your allegorical interpretation goes beyond what the text says.

Eph 2:1 is referring to the effect of the sacrament in Eph 2:5 = Baptism (Eph 2:5 = cross reference to Col 2:12-13).

You are assuming the very point you need to prove.

Ephesians 2:4–5 says God, because of His mercy and love, quickened us together with Christ when we were dead in sins. God is the subject; the spiritually dead are the recipients.

Colossians 2:12 says we are risen with Christ “through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” Paul identifies God's operation as the power behind this resurrection.

The passage connects baptism with union with Christ, but it does not establish that water baptism is the efficient cause of regeneration.

The natural mind does develop dispositions with God’s prevenient grace. Rom 8 is mostly about AFTER you are a Christian. Glorification is conditional according to how we prepare with God’s prevenient grace (Rom 8:13). We should persevere (Rom 8:17).

You are confusing Paul's description of the flesh with his exhortation to believers who are no longer in the flesh.

Romans 8:7–8 says the carnal mind is enmity against God, is not subject to God's law, and cannot please God. Then verse 9 says:

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.”

Paul contrasts those in the flesh with those in whom the Spirit dwells. He does not describe the natural man as gradually developing a spiritual disposition through prevenient grace.

Yes, believers must mortify sin. Romans 8:13 says they do so “through the Spirit.” Their activity is real, but it is dependent upon the Spirit's power.

Likewise, Romans 8:17 teaches that believers suffer with Christ and shall be glorified with Him. It does not make glorification dependent upon an independent human contribution.

Read Romans 8:29–30. Paul presents God's unbroken purpose: those He foreknew, predestinated, called, and justified, He also glorified. The final outcome does not rest upon a human will that grace merely assists.

Aquinas says 1 Cor 2:14 is about not putting worldly things first. Even a Christian can do that.

You are replacing Paul's actual description with an interpretation that does not fit the context.

Paul says:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

The Greek word translated “natural” is psychikos. Paul contrasts the natural person with the spiritual person. His point is not merely that someone puts worldly things first. He says the natural man cannot receive or know the things of the Spirit.

A Christian can certainly behave carnally. In 1 Corinthians 3:1 Paul calls the Corinthians carnal and babes in Christ. But that does not make them the same as the natural man in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Jude 19 also describes natural or sensual people as “having not the Spirit.”

Here is the fundamental issue, Lagrange:

You speak of grace, but repeatedly make it a preparatory assistance that must be cooperated with before God can bring about the saving result.

I believe something different. God gives life. God renews the heart. God works in His people both to will and to do. Consequently, they believe, repent, obey, and persevere.

I am not denying the believer's activity. I am denying that his activity is the independent originating cause of spiritual life or the determining factor that makes Christ's redemption effective.

The question is not whether the believer believes, repents, obeys, and perseveres. The question is whether these things originate in God's effectual work or in a human will that grace merely prepares and assists.

 

[Brightfame52]

Lagrange said:

Not really. Election to grace (Rom 11:5) precedes the effectual call. Also, we are born with a conscience* (Rom 2:15, Rom 9:1) and the natural virtues (too many to count) so we are not totally depraved. We were each created by God. Total inability, yes, due to original sin, but God’s prevenient grace precedes full regeneration so it doesn’t matter (Apoc 3:20, James 4:8). Rom 9:11 - It’s interesting that you bring up Rom 9:11. I know you see monergism there. Rom 9:11 is really about election to grace. The whole chapter of Rom 9 is really about preparation. I’m sure we’ll get into that eventually.

Look closely at the contradiction you just wrote: you admit "Total inability, yes, due to original sin," yet in the same breath you claim "we are not totally depraved" because we have a conscience and natural virtues!

1. You misunderstand Total Depravity. Total depravity does not mean fallen men have no natural conscience (Romans 2:15) or cannot perform outward civic kindnesses. It means every faculty of the soul—mind, will, affections, and conscience—is corrupted by sin and void of spiritual life (Titus 1:15). A natural conscience accuses and excuses a sinner under the law; it never produces spiritual love for God or prepares a corpse for heaven.
2. You completely invert Romans 9. Calling Romans 9 a chapter about "human preparation" turns Paul's entire argument upside down! In Romans 9:11–18, Paul explicitly excludes all human willing, running, and preparing: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (v. 16). Esau and Jacob did zero preparation in the womb before God unconditionally elected Jacob in the Eternal Phase (Romans 9:11–13).
3. Revelation 3:20 and James 4:8 are addressed to believers, not unregenerate corpses. Revelation 3:20 is spoken to the church at Laodicea, and James 4:8 is written to "my beloved brethren" (James 1:16)—people already quickened in the Vital Phase who are being called to obedience in the Practical Phase. Neither verse teaches "prevenient grace" given to unregenerate sinners.

Augustine, On Nature and Grace 31.35 (prevenient and subsequent grace): “He anticipates (prevents) us, however, that we may be healed; but then He will also follow us (subsequent), that being healed we may grow healthy and strong...”

I do not build my faith on Augustine or any fallible church father; Scripture alone is our final authority. Yet even here, you misread Augustine! Notice he says God anticipates us "that we may be healed"—referring to God's sovereign Vital Phase quickening (healing the dead soul first), followed by subsequent grace in the Practical Phase ("that being healed we may grow healthy and strong"). Augustine was arguing against Pelagian human preparation, not supporting Trent's sacramental ladder!

John 3:8 follows John 3:5 which is definitely baptism. John 3:5 Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost.. (also Acts 2:38 - Baptism for the remission of sins)

Assuming John 3:5 means water baptism is pure circular reasoning. Jesus was rebuking Nicodemus, a master of Israel, for not knowing Old Testament Scripture (John 3:10). Where does the Old Testament speak of being born of water and the Spirit? In Ezekiel 36:25–27:

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean... A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you."

Water in John 3:5 is the Old Testament symbol of the cleansing Word and Spirit of God (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5)—not a Christian water ceremony that hadn't even been instituted yet! And as for Acts 2:38, the Greek preposition eis ("for" the remission of sins) regularly means "because of" or "with reference to" (just as in Matthew 12:41, where Nineveh repented eis—"at" or because of—the preaching of Jonah). Peter was commanding convicted sinners to repent and be baptized on the basis of the remission of sins Christ had already secured in the Legal Phase.

1 Pet 3:21 “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” means it’s not the external rite of cleansing our bodies that, by itself, produces grace and spiritual regeneration... “…but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (DRV) This means we must come with the dispositions of faith and a true repentance, which is here called the examination (lit. the interrogation) of a good conscience.

Look at what your own explanation of 1 Peter 3:21 just proved: you admit a candidate must already possess "faith and a true repentance" and "a good conscience" before coming to water baptism!

Where did that faith, repentance, and clean conscience come from? According to Scripture, faith is the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22), repentance is granted by God (2 Timothy 2:25), and a clean heart is a sovereign creation of God in the Vital Phase (Psalm 51:10; 1 John 5:1). If a person already has living faith, true repentance, and a good conscience before touching the water, he is ALREADY regenerated! Water baptism in the Practical Phase is the outward pledge and confession of a soul already made alive—not the cause of his new birth.

Paul was a bishop and his main office was to teach but he could baptize (Matt 28:19). It was usually the office of the priest or deacon to baptize (1 Cor 1:17) I see whasimt the main problem is with baptism. You think pouring water is all that is happening. There are five causes and all 5 of these causes happen simultaneously at baptism... [Council of Trent, Session VI, Ch VII, Denz 799 (1528)]

Think about the absurdity of what you just said about Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:17: "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel."

If water baptism were truly the Instrumental Cause through which God regenerates and justifies sinners, then Paul would literally be saying, "Christ sent me not to regenerate or justify anyone, but merely to preach!" Every apostle and evangelist in the New Testament would have prioritized water baptism above preaching if baptism were the instrument of justification. Instead, Paul thanked God he baptized almost none of the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 1:14) because the Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16)—calling out those whom the Spirit quickens in the Vital Phase.

As for the Council of Trent, quoting Trent's Aristotelian causes only exposes how far Rome has departed from the Gospel. Trent explicitly anathematizes anyone who believes we are justified by Christ's imputed righteousness alone without inherent "sanctifying grace" infused through sacraments. Yet Romans 4:5–6 declares that God "justifieth the ungodly" and "imputeth righteousness without works." Justification is a legal declaration in heaven's court (Phase II: The Legal Phase), not an internal infusion of grace poured into the soul via a priest's water ritual.

We don’t believe in “partial regeneration”. The Arminians do. Preparation is done by God through His Prevenient grace*. God decides (God’s free will) when we are prepared and then elects us to justification through baptism. For us, there is a gap between preparation and justification. One does not cause the other.

Look at that admission: "God decides when we are prepared and then elects us to justification through baptism."
That directly overthrows Ephesians 1:4, which declares that God "hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"—not after observing how well we cooperated with "actual grace" prior to water baptism!
In God's Five Phases of Salvation, there is no uncertain "dark gap" where a sinner is half-alive, cooperating with actual grace while still under condemnation, hoping to make it to a baptismal font before dying:

1. The Eternal Phase: Unconditional election before time (Ephesians 1:4; Romans 9:11).
2. The Legal Phase: Full, finished justification accomplished at Calvary by Christ's blood (Romans 5:9).
3. The Vital Phase: Sovereign, instantaneous regeneration by the Holy Spirit alone, without water or human works (John 3:8; Titus 3:5).
4. The Practical Phase: Faith, repentance, and water baptism as the obedient walk of an already-regenerated child of God (Acts 8:36–37; Ephesians 2:10).
5. The Final Phase: Bodily resurrection and eternal glorification (Romans 8:30).

Christ's blood alone justifies, the Spirit alone regenerates, and no priest, water, or preparatory gap stands between God's elect and their Savior.

Since this covers several detailed points from Lagrange, let me know if you need this split into two parts for your board's character limit, or if you want to focus even more sharply on Trent's infused righteousness vs. Christ's imputed righteousness.