Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Growth is a sure indicator of life. I think it’s safe to assume that we shouldn’t be killing what God is forming into people.
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Age of Accountability
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Part of the process of IVF is creating viable embryos before implanting them.
These embryos can be tested for a variety of things before implanting. Genetic testing can tell you exactly the diseases and physical traits the child will have before implanting...
But usually a bunch of embryos are made before selecting one to implant....then the remainder are either stored or discarded. (Usually stored and available for "adoption") but still tested And CGI photos show the appearance of the children in the catalog you order one out of.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Scripture teaches that God knows the child in the womb (Psalm 139:13-16; Jeremiah 1:5). Scripture presents the unborn as a human life known by God.
From a biological standpoint, the same human being exists from conception onward. The DNA present in the embryo is the same DNA that will be present in the child, the adult, and the elderly person. What changes is development, not identity.
An embryo has not reached that point.
An infant has not reached that point.
Many young children have not reached that point.
The issue is not what we call them. The issue is whether the condition described in Scripture has been reached.
Snowflake Babies were not conceived in a traditional sense....they were created by a third party in a petri dish in a lab with materials taken from individuals who may or may not even know or have even met each other.
That's how impersonal Snowflake babies are created.
This isn't a moment of attraction and an illicit action. Not that much emotion went into this.
There's issues with "life begins at conception" because this now extends into the Snowflake babies realm..
God knows the future just as well as the past and the present....no surprise party for Him. Your next breath is not at God's acquiescence but active support.
When it comes to babies....we see and believe in their potential as adults. Not anything they have done as a baby because babies don't really do anything beyond eat, sleep, and dirty their diapers.
That's how impersonal Snowflake babies are created.
This isn't a moment of attraction and an illicit action. Not that much emotion went into this.
There's issues with "life begins at conception" because this now extends into the Snowflake babies realm..
God knows the future just as well as the past and the present....no surprise party for Him. Your next breath is not at God's acquiescence but active support.
When it comes to babies....we see and believe in their potential as adults. Not anything they have done as a baby because babies don't really do anything beyond eat, sleep, and dirty their diapers.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
If God gives a baby life, I would not want to be in the place where it is myself deciding that it isn’t life. There isn’t any life in this world that doesn’t come from God. By Him all things consist.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
God is Just.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
I do not see how IVF changes the issue.
An IVF child is still a human child.
The child develops into an infant, a child, an adult, and an elderly person just as any other child does.
The circumstances of conception do not change the nature of the person conceived.
The question under discussion is not how the child was conceived.
The question is whether the condition described in Scripture has been reached.
Has the individual come to the knowledge of good and evil?
Has the point described in Romans 7:9 been reached?
Those questions remain the same whether conception occurred naturally or through IVF.
And @Ben1445 ...
Scripture says "the soul who sins dies".
So, are you saying that the petri dish embryo qualifies as a baby, a complete soul?
There are many who would say that this embryo has not even lived yet.
I'm not saying you are right or wrong for i do not know definitively....
But I am interested in how you came to the conclusion that you are making. If its just an arbitrary assignment....then ok...but don't expect a lot of agreement. If you have a thought out reasoning for it? OK...people can subscribe.
Because then, if we have a power outage causing mass murder (if embryos are not kept frozen they will degrade and become not viable if not implanted. )
Pulling the plug on a deep freeze medical freezer or the destruction of unwanted snowflake babies is murder.
There does exist a line of reasoning concerning blood. (Blood is life and all life is God's) An embryo does not have blood cells yet. It may have DNA but no blood as of yet. It will at a point in the development process....but not as yet in the petri dish.
Others put the line of being a soul at the ability to breathe air. Successfully breathing or not....thats their particular line since God breathes life into Adam or all of us in truth....
There has to be a line.
Is a baby alive when its known to exist after implantation and beginning development? Its alive in its mother and father's hearts? If someone injures the mother and she miscarried is he/she guilty of murder?
There's a huge list of debate items in this bag.
I'm definitely not in favor of abortion....the scriptures are clear about it being a horrible thing. (Gives me shudders just thinking about the punishment for it)
But where is it Providence vx just possibility.
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Psalm 51:5. 'Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.'
The last part of the verse does not mean that the conception was (necessarily) sinful, but that what was conceived was a sinner.
I do not believe that there is an 'age of responsibility' with God. Most parents know that their children are sinners pretty much from day one. You don't have to say to a child, "Now then, Johnny, this is how you tell a lie. You think of something that isn't true and tell it as if it is." Or, "Well, Jane; this is how you can be selfish. You keep your toys to yourself and don't let your little brother play with them." No, children work these things out for themselves very quickly. They are sinners from even before birth, and unless God regenerates them they are hell-bound.
So what do we do? We lay our children who die in infancy in God's hands, saying, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Of course He will! But He will do so according to His own perfect justice and not our imperfect version. A verse that may give us additional hope is 2 Samuel 12:23, though I am aware that there are differing interpretations of it.
The last part of the verse does not mean that the conception was (necessarily) sinful, but that what was conceived was a sinner.
I do not believe that there is an 'age of responsibility' with God. Most parents know that their children are sinners pretty much from day one. You don't have to say to a child, "Now then, Johnny, this is how you tell a lie. You think of something that isn't true and tell it as if it is." Or, "Well, Jane; this is how you can be selfish. You keep your toys to yourself and don't let your little brother play with them." No, children work these things out for themselves very quickly. They are sinners from even before birth, and unless God regenerates them they are hell-bound.
So what do we do? We lay our children who die in infancy in God's hands, saying, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Of course He will! But He will do so according to His own perfect justice and not our imperfect version. A verse that may give us additional hope is 2 Samuel 12:23, though I am aware that there are differing interpretations of it.
I agree....
Paul in Romans (and what kind of Baptist are you if you cannot write a treatise on this book alone) writes about how in Adam all have sinned and fallen short.
The writer of Hebrews talks about how Christ is the second Adam.....
The law brings death but the Spirit brings life. These two things are brought together when those key scriptures are paralleled together in Exodus and in Acts concerning the "about 2,000 people" were either killed or were believing and got baptized.
Babies cannot even talk until almost 2 years old....and truly to get to that point there has been almost 3 years of progress. Long term and mid term memory doesn't start until 3 or 4 years of age.
Also...
Genesis in the "Begats" sections....
It is painfully obvious if you understand the names that the notion of "sin begets more sin"
2 sinful parents conceive and raise sinful children. Each fruit reproduces after its own kind through its seed.
This lesson was repeated quite vigorously by Noah to Ham concerning Canaan after his bout of getting drunk.
It was not so much a curse as it was a declaration of truth. Ham was going to curse his own son and not be able to do anything about it. Nothing worse for a Godly man than to condemn his own children to a life of sin instead of love.