The limits of culture?

[Salty]

In another thread Jon stated: "BUT this is generational and cultural." talking about what is worn to church.

Lets take the next step - about our cultural!

In that thread - coming to church shoeless - Would that be be a problem?

In the old days you would never bring a beverage or food into the morning worship service.

In the old days - no one had a cell phone - in this day and age - virtually everyone has a cell phone
which often doubles as a computer - so someone is playing games on their phone during service - .....

How many families miss church so their kids can play sports on Sunday?

How many young adults are shacking up - do we say anything - if we do - they might leave the church

How about a church supper - if several are vegertians - are we told to bring meatless plates?

The church wants to have a baby shower for a 15 year old un-married girl.......

Someone insists that everyone wear a face mask

A couple want to bring their dog (non-service) into the worship service
If that is okay - what is someone wanted to bring their pet snake......


So how far do we go with contemporary culture

Anything you would like to add to this list?

 

[CoachedByChrist]

Salty, your question about families missing church so kids can play on Sunday is the one I hear most. Culture pulls with a schedule, a tournament, and a coach who expects us there. Families trade worship for a game and wonder why the week feels thin. Sport can be worship, but it cannot replace it. The calendar shows what we love. I wrote about this here: Christian Volleyball: Sports, Competition & Worship | CBC

 

[Kai]

I think these issues are less about culture and more about basic common courtesy and actually having a biblical worldview.

And anyone who attends church knowing they will be causing a distraction to themselves and others probably shouldn’t be there in the first place.

 

[Reynolds]

In another thread Jon stated: "BUT this is generational and cultural." talking about what is worn to church.

Lets take the next step - about our cultural!

In that thread - coming to church shoeless - Would that be be a problem?

In the old days you would never bring a beverage or food into the morning worship service.

In the old days - no one had a cell phone - in this day and age - virtually everyone has a cell phone
which often doubles as a computer - so someone is playing games on their phone during service - .....

How many families miss church so their kids can play sports on Sunday?

How many young adults are shacking up - do we say anything - if we do - they might leave the church

How about a church supper - if several are vegertians - are we told to bring meatless plates?

The church wants to have a baby shower for a 15 year old un-married girl.......

Someone insists that everyone wear a face mask

A couple want to bring their dog (non-service) into the worship service
If that is okay - what is someone wanted to bring their pet snake......


So how far do we go with contemporary culture

Anything you would like to add to this list?

I guess it's really all about your heart. Today we had cdll phones. When I was growing up, half the congregation was staring out window, reading something other than Bible, playing make faces games with the kids, etc. No shoes? If you have shoes, you should wear them. I remember my Grannie talking about going to church bare footed. The Pharisees were dressed to the nines and Jesus detested them.
Dog? No.
Snake? No.

 

[Salty]

Dog? No.

I have seen that more than once! - so what should be said to the dog owner - ---- What if they say - no dog - I dont come?

 

[JonC]

In another thread Jon stated: "BUT this is generational and cultural." talking about what is worn to church.

Lets take the next step - about our cultural!

In that thread - coming to church shoeless - Would that be be a problem?

In the old days you would never bring a beverage or food into the morning worship service.

In the old days - no one had a cell phone - in this day and age - virtually everyone has a cell phone
which often doubles as a computer - so someone is playing games on their phone during service - .....

How many families miss church so their kids can play sports on Sunday?

How many young adults are shacking up - do we say anything - if we do - they might leave the church

How about a church supper - if several are vegertians - are we told to bring meatless plates?

The church wants to have a baby shower for a 15 year old un-married girl.......

Someone insists that everyone wear a face mask

A couple want to bring their dog (non-service) into the worship service
If that is okay - what is someone wanted to bring their pet snake......


So how far do we go with contemporary culture

Anything you would like to add to this list?

Congregations are comprised of Christians within a specific community. Should trible people are saved, who do not wear shoes, adopt wearing shoes before they can gather as a congregation? I say "no".

Your generation of Christians, @Salty , adopted the culture of your generation as the standard for church attire. You downgraded the standard that existed (a suit, most often a three piece suit) and adopted a coat and tie (most often a sports coat) because that is what occurred in your culture. You said it yourself. Your generation continued to look to secular professionals as the standard for dress (you said doctors and lawyers). When your church adopted the secular attire of your generation did you also adopt cocktails, adultery, gambling, etc? No, of course not. You simply moved from the cultural attire of your grandparents because your culture was different.



The problem is change. As we age and realize our culture is becoming a thing of the past our first reaction is resistance. The culture of your grand patents has passed and I am sure they were also resistant, looking down on younger generations. But their culture is gone. Your generation's culture is almost gone and mine is fading. If you cling to secular trafition at the expense of a newer generation generation of believers you will miss out on God's work today.

Look at churches that cling to bygone secular tradition. These churches are typically dying or dead. You would be lucky to find 100 people in the congregation any given Sunday and even more lucky to find 25 members under the age of 40.

YET if you look around God is accomplishing a great work among our younger generation. Go to a coffee shop Tuesday morning and you see tables of young adults studying Scripture. Greet them and you are getting a sincere gospel message. Respond in kind and they remember you and genuinely take interest in your life.


The best way to see what happens when churches sacrifice their secular traditions on the alter in order to be a part of the kingdom work is to look at how God is working.

Compair churches over the last 2 years. How many people has your church reached with the gospel, how many have been saved, how many baptisms, how many of those have legitimately changed, how many of these new converts are still faithful and engaged in discipleship?

What population of your church are under 50 years old? How many youth? Are you reaching the new generation or have you abandoned them for secular trafition?

These are important questions. They are "allegator questions" (questions one should wrestle with).

For me, we are approaching being 2 years old (a church plant). We typically have a few baptisms a month. Discipleship is wonderful. We have ages from baby to 60 years old, with the majority of the congregation in their 20's. We are ethnically diverse, representing the diversity of pur community (an important point). We jave grown from about 15 people to about 200 over the past year and a half. We are a very active congregation and have a strong presence in the middle schools, high schools and colleges in our area.

 

[JonC]

I guess it's really all about your heart. Today we had cdll phones. When I was growing up, half the congregation was staring out window, reading something other than Bible, playing make faces games with the kids, etc. No shoes? If you have shoes, you should wear them. I remember my Grannie talking about going to church bare footed. The Pharisees were dressed to the nines and Jesus detested them.
Dog? No.
Snake? No.

This reminds me of something that makes me a bit self conscious.

I mentiined the newer generation values authenticity. When there they are there.

I look around at church and most have physical bibles, a notebook and pen in hand. They intently listen to the sermons. When I was their age I probably daydreamed just as much as paid attention. But they stick around after church fellowshipping and discussing the sermon, how they can apply it to their lives.

What makes me a bit self conscious is the physical bible thing. I use a tablet. It is easier for me to read (I don't have to fumble with reading glasses, which gives me a headache after awhile). Nobody really cares that I use a tablet, I guess.

 

[Foxmeister]

I have seen that more than once! - so what should be said to the dog owner - ---- What if they say - no dog - I dont come?

I can deal with legitimate service dogs in church.

 

[JonC]

I can deal with legitimate service dogs in church.

I would like to take mine, but I think he may be Presbyterian.

 

[Reynolds]

I have seen that more than once! - so what should be said to the dog owner - ---- What if they say - no dog - I dont come?

I guess they can stay home with fluffy.

 

[Foxmeister]

This reminds me of something that makes me a bit self conscious.

I mentiined the newer generation values authenticity. When there they are there.

I look around at church and most have physical bibles, a notebook and pen in hand. They intently listen to the sermons. When I was their age I probably daydreamed just as much as paid attention. But they stick around after church fellowshipping and discussing the sermon, how they can apply it to their lives.

What makes me a bit self conscious is the physical bible thing. I use a tablet. It is easier for me to read (I don't have to fumble with reading glasses, which gives me a headache after awhile). Nobody really cares that I use a tablet, I guess.

I can deal with someone using a tablet because the small font in Bibles can be problematic for many.

 

[Reynolds]

This reminds me of something that makes me a bit self conscious.

I mentiined the newer generation values authenticity. When there they are there.

I look around at church and most have physical bibles, a notebook and pen in hand. They intently listen to the sermons. When I was their age I probably daydreamed just as much as paid attention. But they stick around after church fellowshipping and discussing the sermon, how they can apply it to their lives.

What makes me a bit self conscious is the physical bible thing. I use a tablet. It is easier for me to read (I don't have to fumble with reading glasses, which gives me a headache after awhile). Nobody really cares that I use a tablet, I guess.

I use my phone for same reason, can read without glasses. My pastor actually told me I needed to use a physical Bible. I told him "We have been friends for many years and you probably know what I am about to tell you.". He said "Yeah, mind my own business.". I said "Exactly!".

 

[JonC]

@Salty

I think the answer to the OP question is simple. We flee from sin.

What I was talking about was not adopting contemporary culture. I was talking about not insisting on the culture of our generation.

Your culture (how you dress for church) IS contemporary culture (for your generation). How I dress is contemporary culture (gor my generation).

What was being discussed is expecting a generation five decades newer to adopt the contemporary culture and traditions of a generation that is mostly a decade retired from the workforce.

When churches become trapped in their own traditions and the contemporary culture of their generation (when they start viewing their secular culture as superior to all others) they start to die. Ultimately they bevome nothing but a Christian club where those of that generation meet to discuss passages they have discussed for decades. But they cease engagement in the work of the Kingdom. They find themselves unable to share the gospel or disciple younger generations as their focus becomes maintaining the "club".

 

[Van]

Should we blame the destruction of America's "Christian culture" on the godless left, or on ourselves for falling for the left's deception. How many times on this Board do we see the argument, "two wrongs make a right?" We have not unified to present a common defense of the gospel. Instead we find fault. I often post about Calvinism or Arminianism, or KJVOism, or a half dozen other bogus views posted on this board. Have I joined or formed a common network of like-minded believers to establish a unified front? Nope.

Without a willingness to study God's word, and admit our mistaken beliefs based on early indoctrination, we will continue down the path to end times. Can we slow the descent, and hasten the day of Christ's return? I believe "Yes!" But we must drop the "my way or the highway" belief our views are truth. We must check to see if our "interpretation" or "understanding" of God's word actually reflects the intended meaning.

 

[JonC]

In the old days you would never bring a beverage or food into the morning worship service.

In the old days - no one had a cell phone - in this day and age - virtually everyone has a cell phone
which often doubles as a computer - so someone is playing games on their phone during service - .....

How many families miss church so their kids can play sports on Sunday?

How many young adults are shacking up - do we say anything - if we do - they might leave the church

How about a church supper - if several are vegertians - are we told to bring meatless plates?

The church wants to have a baby shower for a 15 year old un-married girl....... ...

So how far do we go with contemporary culture

Anything you would like to add to this list?

I think we need to revise (and look at) this list. There seems to be assumptions made that may not be justified.

I am looking at Christians in their 20's to early 30's, that I know of in churches I attend and my home church.

1. Beverages. Typically these guys have watter bottles (those metal bottles). I have started bringing in a bottle of water (if I caugh I have it).

I do not see bringing in a beverage as a good or bad thing. Does not matter.

2. Cell phones. The newer generation does not use cell phones in church as much as my generation. I use my phone or a tablet as a bible because I can see it. They use physical bibles. I do not understand the reason they insist on hard copy bibles. I can take notes in my bible app.

Looking around you see them listening intently to the sermon and taking notes. At that age we typically drifted off, reading the bullitin...remember those?..., etc.

This idea they are playing games is an unjustified assumption (but I'm sure those who would be coloring in our generation probably play games).

3. We do not have any "shacking up". Saving one's self for marriage is popular with this generation. It ain't the 60's.

Generally they "talk" (hang out in groups) for a year or so and then date. But dating is with the intent of marriage (it is more serious than dating was for us). They make curfew's for themselves and are not alone at one another's home. Most have told me they prefer to date a fairly long period but have a short engagement as they suspect a long engagement and having a marriage date could lead towards temptation.

4. I do not know why we would not accommodate the dietary restrictions of a brother (whether a health necessity, trying to maintain a healthy diet, or a matter of conscious).

I would have no problem imcluding a vegetarian main course at a pot luck for a brother who is vegetarian. We love one another. If me eating meat would cause them to stumble then I would not eat meat.

5. If there was an unwed pregnant 15 year old in our congregation then of course we would have a baby shower for her. We are Christians. She would probably need both baby items and the support of her congregation as she becomes a mother. She would need a lot of support becoming a mother at such a young age. That would be a perfect example of what a church should do.

 

[Foxmeister]

Should we blame the destruction of America's "Christian culture" on the godless left, or on ourselves for falling for the left's deception.

You lost me with that first sentence. I know Democrats who are are followers of Christ. I also know Republicans who are not. So to say people of either party are godless is asinine. Do you agree with everything the Republicans in office do?

There was a women's Bible study group at the previous church my wife and I attended. They would meet on Thursday mornings at a local coffee place that had outdoor seating with a beautiful view of a pasture and a mountain in the distance. One morning two women began talking about how God was using Trump. My wife said they went on for about ten minutes or so. Then one of the two said all Democrats are satanists. My wife had enough of it. She looked at them and said, "What if I told you I was a Democrat, would you call me a satanist too?" The two women became angry and said some snide remarks and left.

Those women were supposed to be there for a Bible study. Instead they put Trump ahead of God.

 

[JonC]

You lost me with that first sentence. I know Democrats who are are followers of Christ. I also know Republicans who are not. So to say people of either party are godless is asinine. Do you agree with everything the Republicans in office do?

There was a women's Bible study group at the previous church my wife and I attended. They would meet on Thursday mornings at a local coffee place that had outdoor seating with a beautiful view of a pasture and a mountain in the distance. One morning two women began talking about how God was using Trump. My wife said they went on for about ten minutes or so. Then one of the two said all Democrats are satanists. My wife had enough of it. She looked at them and said, "What if I told you I was a Democrat, would you call me a satanist too?" The two women became angry and said some snide remarks and left.

Those women were supposed to be there for a Bible study. Instead they put Trump ahead of God.

I was thinking, if anything political, we should blame the decline of Christian culture (Christianity) on the Republicans. But I would blame the moral decline in American culture on the Democrats. When the DNC went all in on the sins of Roman's 3 the GOP saw it as an opportunity and sought to "politicalize" Christianity for their own gain.

 

[Van]

You lost me with that first sentence. I know Democrats who are are followers of Christ. I also know Republicans who are not. So to say people of either party are godless is asinine. Do you agree with everything the Republicans in office do?

There was a women's Bible study group at the previous church my wife and I attended. They would meet on Thursday mornings at a local coffee place that had outdoor seating with a beautiful view of a pasture and a mountain in the distance. One morning two women began talking about how God was using Trump. My wife said they went on for about ten minutes or so. Then one of the two said all Democrats are satanists. My wife had enough of it. She looked at them and said, "What if I told you I was a Democrat, would you call me a satanist too?" The two women became angry and said some snide remarks and left.

Those women were supposed to be there for a Bible study. Instead they put Trump ahead of God.

Sir, we completely disagree. But there is no point in implying I hold asinine views.

I do not know any Democrats who openly oppose abortion. Do you? Anyone can claim to be a follower of Christ, but we know them by their fruits. President Obama indicated he was a committed Christian, but was the author of "Crossfire Hurricane" an attempt to sabotage the incoming Administration.

For me to claim the Godless Left has destroyed the "Christian Culture" of America is not to say every single Democrat is a closet atheist. That would be asinine.

But it is fair to say often Democrats say the right thing, but then do the wrong thing. Consider the Governor of Virginia.

 

[Foxmeister]

Sir, we completely disagree. But there is no point in implying I hold asinine views.

I do not know any Democrats who openly oppose abortion. Do you? Anyone can claim to be a follower of Christ, but we know them by their fruits. President Obama indicated he was a committed Christian, but was the author of "Crossfire Hurricane" an attempt to sabotage the incoming Administration.

For me to claim the Godless Left has destroyed the "Christian Culture" of America is not to say every single Democrat is a closet atheist. That would be asinine.

But it is fair to say often Democrats say the right thing, but then do the wrong thing. Consider the Governor of Virginia.

Yes, I do know Democrats who oppose abortion. I also know Republicans who believe the government has no right to interfere. I know Democrats who oppose socialism and how far the party has gone to the left. I also know Republicans who claim to be Christians who are racists.

Here's a question for you. Is there anything an elected Republican president or member of Congress has said or done politically that you have disagreed with?

 

[Salty]

I do not know any Democrats who openly oppose abortion. Do you?

Not many - but a few:
DFLOA

if these are pro-life - I am not sure:

In 2019, the Pew Research Center found that 14% of Democratic and Democratic-leaning registered voters identify as conservative or very conservative, 38% identify as moderate, and 47% identify as liberal or very liberal.[2]