It's the other way around WD. You (9.42)have almost twice as many posts per day than I(4.80). You're the one with a lot of free time.
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Christ The Calvinist
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It's the other way around WD. You (9.42)have almost twice as many posts per day than I(4.80). You're the one with a lot of free time.
You think God empowers people with the ability to believe or not believe. Is that a fair summation of your theory? If so that is a strange notion to hold.You are not on biblical ground WD.
It is true that the Lord gives or gits His elect with faith. I wouldn't call it gifting them with the ability to believe.
How can it be said that non-believers are gifted with unbelief?! How can God be said to gift someone with a negation?
You claim this group...the "elect" is chosen arbitrarily, since they were not chosen based on anything. That would be a nebulous group.
I'm glad you are fascinated. He is one of 4 elders...2 are calvinists, 2 are not. Anything contrary to Scripture should be denounced by anyone with such a view. I have no problem "sitting" under his ministry, because it is ultimately not his, but God's.
This is what it has become in the modern church age...but not the intention of the church in Acts. Worship and fellowship should be the priority of the assembly...preaching is secondary.
You love using the word "arbitrarily" in reference to the Calvinist understanding of God choosing His elect.but God does nothing at random. Just because your finite reasoning can't accept biblical facts does not indict God.
Your "nebulous" reasoning is your undoing.
Then why haven't you denounced him? You have denounced others here with Calvinistic views on a wide-ranging topics.
Your pastor is the primary preacher. If you think he is preaching doctrines which are wrong then you need to confront him with at least half as much energy as you have denounced the Calvinists here. It would be inconsistent of you not to.
So the sermon is not that important in the Church in your mind?! It is a weakness of the modern Church too place too much emphasis on preaching?!
Your views are skewed. Isn't worship going on when we hear God's word being proclaimed during the sermon?!
If it's not at random...what is the basis? I know...you'll say "God's good pleasure" and not based on anything...which by definition is arbitrary.
Outright lie. I haven't "denounced" anyone. You can disagree with a person's view without denouncing a person...but based on your posting history here, I doubt you believe that.
Don't pretend like you know what I have and haven't talked to my pastor about...you haven't a clue.
Would you like to address what I actually say for a change? Is the sermon more important than giving, singing and fellowship in your mind?
Yes, I do believe the modern church places too much emphasis on preaching based on how little modern Christians actually know about the Bible, serve in the Chruch and how often people change churches because of the "preaching" alone. The modern church is filled with "sponges" and those who believe their study of the Bible should happen on Sunday morning through the preaching. It's a huge problem...and I'm shocked you dont' see it.
Can you show where I have stated contrary?
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God's will to choose whom He wants for salvation certainly stems from His good pleasure. I know that doesn't go down well with you -- it's just too biblical for your taste. You find it necessary for God to consult with you first or else the Lord will be charged with choosing His elect at random. If the Lord clearly states in scripture something that counters your beliefs -- you accuse Him of being "random".
Of course you denounce. It means to express strong disapproval of. You strongly disagree with my theology don't you? And I strongly disagree with yours. I have and shall continue to denounce your doctrinal views.
I find it hypocritical for you to sit under the ministry of a man who preaches things which are contrary to the things you maintain on the BB. You constantly denounce the teachings which are common to Calvinists. Then you willing listen to sermons which proclaim Calvinistic doctrine. That is odd of you.
Giving, singing and fellowship are important in the context of what constitutes a local fellowship of believers gathering together in the Name of the Lord. But the preaching of the Word (and listening to it)is the primary facet of the church.
Astounding! "The modern church places too much emphasis on preaching." The Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in 1 Timothy 4:13 :"Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching."(TNIV). Do you wish to denounce what Paul said?!
You are bringing in all sorts of diversions. You simply do not want to follow the directives of the Word of God. You specialize in excuses.
WD:"Worship and fellowship should be the priority of the assembly ... preaching is secondary." From that statement of yours it is plain that you don't think worship is going on during the proclamation of the Word i.e. preaching.
The king of the ad hominem strikes again.
Apparently you cannot separate the view from the person. I assume you think you have perfect theology, and there are those out there that fall in line with that.
I can give a rat's rear end what you find hypocritical. You act like all calvinistic preacher preach only on that subject. I would encourage you to get out more.
It might be in yours, buy you are no authority on the church plural. Try telling this to an underground church.
No, I agree completely with what Paul said...I "denounce" your interpretation of what he said.
Translation: I can't argue with that point, so I'll stick to my MO of attacking the poster.
What is someone who tells lies called? I have never said worship does not go on during the preaching. I won't expect an apology from you though, I know better.
You are such an eloquent fella.
I don't know what you mean by that comment. Are you trying to say that I think Calvinistic preachers should only deal with the points of TULIP?! That's silly WD.
You mean that I should visit American churches?
"On the church plural"?! What a sentence.
Are you denying that underground churches have preaching?!
WD is referencing 1 Tim.4:13 which I gave him to counter his view that preaching is secondary in the church and that worship isn't involved.
I can't believe that I have to defend the public proclamation of God's Word in church to a fellow poster.
Read the following extract from Robert Duncan Culver's Systematic :"Among the features of the public services of worship in ekklesia the sermon, therefore is of grat importance. During the dark ages of the Western churches of Europe parish priests were so prevailingly ignorant of the Scriptures that the memorized liturgy of the Mass was about all they could produce. The evangelical Reformation restored the Bible to the people and put it again at the center of worship by way of public reading and urgent preaching by a competent preacher." (p.967)
Many calvinist I know believe "Faith" is a "gift of God".
You'l never get a correct understanding/interpretation of scripture until you accept one "FACT",
That is the "POSSIBILITY" that the "WHOLE WORLD...MIGHT BE" saved.
Jesus's offer to Israel, "I would, YOU wouldn't", is the same offer to the "WHOLE WORLD".
Most Calvinist I know don't believe this "possibility" exit, they believe "Foreknowledge" is "predestination",
But when you separate the "two" and realize the "possibility" does exit, scripture has a totally different meaning than the way most calvinist interpret it.
In your post numbered 184 you said:"Worship and fellowship should be the priority of the assembly ... preaching is secondary."(Ellipsis yours).
I had already quoted it in my post numbered 188.
I have quoted 1 Timothy 4:13 as an example to refute your belief.
Let me quote again from Robert Duncan Culver's wonderful Systematic:
a) Proclamation of the Word of truth is of ultimate importance for the church. If people are to be saved, repent, be justified by faith, and sanctified, then, by whatever means available, they must be given the good news.
The importance of proclaiming the good news accounts for the central place of public reading of Scripture and of preaching over all other aspects of public worship, once the Reformation and kindred movements, before and after, approximately restored the primitive pattern. Donald Bloesch devotes 37 of the 265 pages of Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume One, to a chapter on 'The Primacy of Scripture'. Thirty-three of the 300 pages of his second (and last) volume constitute a chapter on "The Cruciality of Preaching' by prophets and preachers who are conceived as, in an important sense, 'the mouthpieces and instruments of the Word of God'. As to proper public worship, Bloesch writes:
Reformed worship is centered about preaching and hearing the Word of God. We are here using the word Reformed in its widest sense to include the whole of Protestantism, the hallmark of which is the appeal to the authority of the Bible over the church tradition and mystical experience. This kind of spirituality was most clearly identifiable in the Reformation and in early Calvinism and Puritanism.(p.731)
First, 1 Timothy "refutes" nothing as it does not address the purpose of the assembly. Second, you stated...and I quote... "preaching is secondary in the church and that worship isn't involved." That my friend is a lie. Justify it as you may, but you know what one who tells lies is called.
Paul is giving Timothy, the young pastor, instructions on how to conduct himself as a minister of the Word. He tells Timothy to devote himself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and teaching -- all in the context of the local assebly of which he pastors.
Perhaps you need to choose your words (on several fronts) more wisely.
You had said :"Worship and fellowship should be the priority of the assembly ... preaching is secondary."(The ellipses are yours).
Do you now wish to rephrase the above? Because after reading your words one gets the distinct impression that you're referencing what you believe are three separate categories -- 1)worship, 2)fellowship and 3)preaching. There doesn't seem to be any recognition that worship is all-pervasive -- not in its own little box.
You can act like a petulant child in calling me a liar repeatedly -- but it would be a better thing to admit that you worded your offensive statement wrongly.
You could try something like this:"I misspoke earlier. I now realize that worship is not in a separate compartment -- it actually incorporates giving, fellowship, the Lord's table, hymns and praises, prayers and the proclamation of the Word."
Furthur, you could recast your grievous error that preaching is secondary and now acknowledge that it is indeed a central component of the local church.
I mean, really, when you said in your post numbered 187 that the modern church places too much emphasis on preaching -- you sounded like Robert S. of Crystal Cathedral infamy.
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You know exactly what I meant by "worship"...it is the same thing 99.9% of all believers call the singing portion of the assembly. Quit playing the semantics game, I never said what you claimed I said, period, nor did I exclude worship from the preaching. That is a lie whether you ever admit to it or not. I bet you believe the "worship leader" is the only one worshipping.
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Jarthur001
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I don't know how that is relevant, particularly since both sides believe the "elect" are empowered by God to believe. Are you claiming to be pelagian?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Another one by Pelagius that seems to agree with you web...
From... Ep. ad Demetriadem, 16.
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