Does God love all people?

[savedbymercy]

So, we see specifically that God's Love causes Him to choose a people. That would lead us to understand, that the world of Jn 3:16 consist of those so loved and Chosen of God..

Gods Love = Chosen ones to be recipients and benefactors of it.

Those God Loved, also is specifically designated His Church Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Now, is the church everyone in the world without exception ? It would be foolish to say yes to that question..

The word church is the greek word

ek klēsia:

It simply means to call out, the called out ones..

1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The church has been called out of darkness, and secondly, into His Marvelous light..

Its not a half done process. Its a calling out of and into.

These are the objects of God's Love in the world, the called out ones, the Church of Jesus Christ.

Paul calls them the called as in Rom 1:6

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 9:24

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Now nowhere in scripture can these things apply to all mankind without exception.

The world that God Loved is a called world. Remember one of the definitions for the word world kosmos is:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

So the called of Jesus Christ as in Rom 1:6

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

So the collection of the called of Jesus Christ is the world God so Loved !

This just simply cannot be denied !
​

 

[12strings]

FROM SAVED BY MERCY

Jn 3:16 tells us of God's Love for the world, but never specifically states that God loved all mankind as individuals without exception, that has been read into the text by those who care little about the Truth of God.

Or perhaps they care a great deal about the Truth of God and simply interpret scripture differently than you.

Contary to SavedbyMercy, I think we see throughout scriptures God expressing kindness toward those who will not be saved (non-elect). Matthew 5:44-45 Lays out a logical line of reasoning:
-We should love our enemies to be "childen of our father"
-SO God loves his enemies...
-But it's not just his saving of the elect (who were his enemies), but also by sending rain and sun on the just and unjust, elect and non-elect.
SO...This verse seems to be equating God's love with Rain and sun...which even then non-elect recieve.

--> I maintain that God has some love for all people, He cares about the pinacle of his creation. But he has a special, redemptive love for his elect.

Contrary to Lakeside, I think it is clear that the Bible also says God hates the wicked (several psalms) and that he hated esau (rom. 9). I believe the bible teaches God can both love and hate the same person at the same time. The statement that "God loves the sinner but hates the sin." is technically true, but incomplete...God also hates the one who does iniquity.

 

[savedbymercy]

12s

Or perhaps they care a great deal about the Truth of God and simply interpret scripture differently than you.

John 3:16 says nothing about Loving all men without exception !

SO God loves his enemies...

No He does not, unless they are the Elect. The only reference close to God Loving His enemies is in the context of believers Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The we in this verse is not referring to all men without exception, and the we were not His enemies from His side, but from theirs by nature. Even when they were enemies [of themselves] He had already been reconciled to them by the Death of His Son, He was not their enemy, so you need to get it right and quit handing me your own privalte interpretation. No where in all of scripture does God say He Loves His enemies ! In fact, He hates them Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

This cannot refer to those Christ died for, because they are not charged with iniquity Rom 4:7-8

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[12strings]

God loves his enemies...

12s

No He does not, unless they are the Elect. The only reference close to God Loving His enemies is in the context of believers Rom 5:10

What then is your interpretation of Matt. 5:44-45...what is it talking about? What's the point of it. It seems to be: "love your enemies, if you do you are imitating God who gives rain and sun to ALL PEOPLE."

 

[savedbymercy]

12s

What then is your interpretation of Matt. 5:44-45...

I don't need to go into that, it does not say God Loves His enemies does it ?

 

[David Lamb]

"God so loved the world....." This tells me that God loves all sinners.
"....that He sent His only begotten Son..." This tells me how much God loves sinners.

As I have said before, I don't know New Testament Greek. However, all the concordances I have are united in saying that Outw, the word translated as "so" in John 3.16 means "so" in the sense of "thus", "in this way", not "so much". There's a different word in Greek for "so much". It is tosoutov. It's used in Hebrews 1.4 which tells us that Jesus is so much better than the angels. If God's intention in John 3.16 had been to let us know how much He loved the world, the Holy Spirit would have inspired John to use a word that meant that.

As it is, John 3.16 seems to mean: "This is the way God loved the world: He sent His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (If I am mistaken, I hope someone who does have a sound grasp of Greek will correct me).

 

[savedbymercy]

dl says

As I have said before, I don't know New Testament Greek. However, all the concordances I have are united in saying that Outw, the word translated as "so" in John 3.16 means "so" in the sense of "thus", "in this way", not "so much".

Thats a good observation, also that same adverb so is used in Rom 11:26 describing in what manner all Israel shall be saved !

Also what John 3:16 is saying that those believing is the ned result of God so Loving the world in that manner. Believing is a end result . The believing indicates Life, and that was the end of Christ coming, that those He came in behalf of might Live ! 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

The we are believers John wrote to !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by plain_n_simple
"God so loved the world....." This tells me that God loves all sinners.
"....that He sent His only begotten Son..." This tells me how much God loves sinners.

HP:Now that seems not only 'plain n simple' but Biblical as well.:thumbsup:

You forgot one thing though. You must have failed to read the rules for this particular discussion. Texts that refute the notions some are implying are not allowed as evidence on this topic.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Allan]

As I have said before, I don't know New Testament Greek. However, all the concordances I have are united in saying that Outw, the word translated as "so" in John 3.16 means "so" in the sense of "thus", "in this way", not "so much". There's a different word in Greek for "so much". It is tosoutov. It's used in Hebrews 1.4 which tells us that Jesus is so much better than the angels. If God's intention in John 3.16 had been to let us know how much He loved the world, the Holy Spirit would have inspired John to use a word that meant that.

As it is, John 3.16 seems to mean: "This is the way God loved the world: He sent His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (If I am mistaken, I hope someone who does have a sound grasp of Greek will correct me).

As one who does know and understands the Greek, your statement above is correct.

However what must be looked at is not 'so' but the term 'world'. No where in the scriptures is the term 'world' ever used to denote believers only. In the OT it is never used to denote believers and in the NT, you have many passages which state we are NOT the world, not to be conformed to the world, ect... I can find no where in scripture where a word has one definition and also has another that means the exact opposite of the first definition.

In fact, when we note John's usage of the term 'world' regarding men's spirituality it is ALWAYS referencing lost and sinful man.

 

[The Biblicist]

As I have said before, I don't know New Testament Greek. However, all the concordances I have are united in saying that Outw, the word translated as "so" in John 3.16 means "so" in the sense of "thus", "in this way", not "so much". There's a different word in Greek for "so much". It is tosoutov. It's used in Hebrews 1.4 which tells us that Jesus is so much better than the angels. If God's intention in John 3.16 had been to let us know how much He loved the world, the Holy Spirit would have inspired John to use a word that meant that.

As it is, John 3.16 seems to mean: "This is the way God loved the world: He sent His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (If I am mistaken, I hope someone who does have a sound grasp of Greek will correct me).

You are correct in your observation of "so" (Gr. houto").

This is not a term that conveys intensity of feeling, but rather the manner in which something is done or compared with.

The manner in which God loved the World was to provide His Son as the provision for eternal life and salvation from the penalty of sin for all willing to receive Him. Hence, it is the willing not the unwilling that partake of the love of God after this manner.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: The manner in which God loved the World was to provide His Son as the provision for eternal life and salvation from the penalty of sin for all willing to receive Him. Hence, it is the willing not the unwilling that partake of the love of God after this manner.

HP: What Biblicist actually means is that if you are lucky enough to be one of the chosen ones to be regenerated by God, God giving or granting to this selected few repentance and faith (both acts of God according to Biblicist) such a one is granted eternal life.

The 'willingness' that so easily slips of his pen, is nothing more or less than that which is granted to man coercively via regeneration, man having absolutely nothing to do with freedom period. Such willingness might be rightfully likened to the willingness of the stench of decaying flesh as it rises freely off of a dead carcass.

Do you see how men can uses words like willingness, and freedom, without the slightest connection to either terms in any moral sense?

Freedom and willingness in a moral context ALWAYS indicate the possibility of contrary choice, something Biblicist denies in sinner or human of any form that matter if he was consistent. His philosophical position hails form the false notion that one can only express what the 'self' dictates, whether the self is sinful, and can only dictate selfishness and sin, or whether the self is righteous, ( if consistent in the least), only can dictate righteousness.

The freedom and willingness Biblicist speaks about is not freedom or willingness at all in any moral sense of the words. His system of philosophy/theology is one of pure necessity just as has been the case with all systems of theology Calvinistic in nature, or following hard after Calvinism. Nothing new or enlightening about Biblicist's positions. Same old maelstrom of confusion that has been around since Augustine that starts off from this false heathen philosophical notion, that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh and not in the will of man.

 

[savedbymercy]

bibl

Hence, it is the willing not the unwilling that partake of the love of God after this manner.

Thats works. The unwilling elect take part in it, and then they become willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

It is only after they receive a NEW Heart and NEW Spirit that God causes them to walk in His statues and keep His Judgments, of which the imperative to believe is one of them. Ezk 36:26-27

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Notice the word cause ! God says He will cause you to walk in His statues. Now what is an statue ? It is the hebrew word choq and means:

statute, ordinance, limit, something prescribed, due

a) prescribed task

b) prescribed portion

c) action prescribed (for oneself), resolve

d) prescribed due

e) prescribed limit, boundary

f) enactment, decree, ordinance

1) specific decree

2) law in general

g) enactments, statutes

1) conditions

2) enactments

3) decrees

4) civil enactments prescribed by God


It is also translated commandments Amos 2:4


4Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:

Now under the New Covenant God issues Three Commandments #1 To Believe on His Son 1 Jn 3:23 ; Acts 16:31 #2 To repent Acts 2:38; Acts 17:30 and #3 To Love one another Jn 13:34;15:17

Now these New Covenant commands are issue to them who have been given a Heart of Flesh as per Ezk 36:26

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

So those statues are only for those with a New Heart, a Heart of Flesh, a Saved Heart ! The commands to Believe or to Repent are only issued out to the New Covenant Hearts given at New Birth !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If anyone on the lists tires or gets frustrated with the Calvinistic ends that get shoved in your faces at every turn, one might consider reconsidering the 'T" in Tulip, just for starters. Do you think just maybe that if one would come to grips with the error of this false Augustinian notion that one might have a reasonable chance to free themselves from the necessitated logical ends (as illogical as in reality they are) savedbymercy so consistently hold your feet to the fire with?

Do you tire of having your own necessitated system of philosophy constantly taken to the necessitated logical (as illogical as it is in reality) end as is done on a daily basis by savedbymery? Have you ever considered that your view of the nature of God and what constitutes morality, freedom, necessity, liberty, justice, etc may in fact be skewed in some crucial areas?

Hmmmmmmm. Now that might be something to consider. :thumbsup:

 

[lakeside]

You are correct in your observation of "so" (Gr. houto").

This is not a term that conveys intensity of feeling, but rather the manner in which something is done or compared with.

The manner in which God loved the World was to provide His Son as the provision for eternal life and salvation from the penalty of sin for all willing to receive Him. Hence, it is the willing not the unwilling that partake of the love of God after this manner.

God loves every person , from the first to the last, He only "hates' the sin.
Here is what Christ's Church says about the subject -

God does love us unconditionally in that he loves us even in our sins. But he cannot love our sins. He cannot love evil. He will always forgive us if we repent. To love him back, we must be free to choose to love him or not. Love cannot be programmed or forced. To love him is the greatest thing we can do for ourselves. But we can choose to not love him. Our choice to not love him does not diminish his unconditional love. But it certainly diminishes ours!

 

[savedbymercy]

lake

God loves every person , from the first to the last,

In your imagination, because there is not one scripture that says that Rom 9:13


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lakeside, you bring up a great truth. Love must be free to be love. Love cannot exist in any system that does not allow for contrary choice. Love, as you say, cannot, and is not necessitated, programmed or forced. Excellent points!.

God is Love. Love means something. To deny God the 'possibility' of contrary choice , as osme on the list do, eliminates the very basis of what love is.

 

[lakeside]

lake



In your imagination, because there is not one scripture that says that Rom 9:13


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

You very much need to learn to read Holy Scripture correctly, you can't read the Bible as if you were reading your local newspaper. You must learn to interpret the Holy Bible as it was intended to be understood" back then", 2000 years ago, not as today in 30, 000 + different interpretations. There is only One True Interpretation and that One True Interpretation was carried on down through the ages and preserved and safe-guarded by Christ's only earthly Church that He left us with. Find a true Apostolic Church today and there you will find the correct interpretation. Christ's Apostolic Church isn't difficult to find, for they are 'universal ' as in the Greek word "Katahotos" [ Catholic ] or more colloquilly, " universal ".

 

[seekingthetruth]

After reading this entire thread, savedbymercy has convinced me that I am spiritually helpless.

If God loves me then He loved me before the creation of the world and He will save me whether I want it or not.

And if God hates me, then He hated me from the creation of the world and I can't be saved no matter how much I want to be.

I don't see any sense in reading scripture or witnessing, or carrying out the great commision if we are all pre-chosen and are spiritually helpless.

If God loves my neighbor then God has already predestined him to be saved, so my testimony is worthless. And if God hates my neighbor then my testimony is wasted anyway.

And as far as church? Why go? I can't change God's predestined fate for me, so what's the use?

Thank you savedbymercy, now I can go fishing every Sunday and not feel guilty for missing church that I don't need anyway because God already made up His mind about all of us before the creation of the world.

John

PS, if God hates me then I wish He would have never created me.

 

[savedbymercy]

lakes

You very much need to learn to read Holy Scripture correctly,

No thats you. Please show us the verse that states God Loves everybody !

In the mean time read this one Rom 9:13

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

You cant tell me God Loved Esau, and he is part of everybody..

 

[12strings]

God loves every person , from the first to the last, He only "hates' the sin.
Here is what Christ's Church says about the subject -

God does love us unconditionally in that he loves us even in our sins. But he cannot love our sins. He cannot love evil. He will always forgive us if we repent. To love him back, we must be free to choose to love him or not. Love cannot be programmed or forced. To love him is the greatest thing we can do for ourselves. But we can choose to not love him. Our choice to not love him does not diminish his unconditional love. But it certainly diminishes ours!

You keep saying that God DOES NOT hate sinners. How do you deal with the passages quoted earlier from psalms that say (Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.)

This is clearly NOT speaking only of the action, but also of the person who commits the sinful action.

In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find offical catholic teaching that denies these verses as well.

(Please not I am not denying that God also loves them.)