standingfirminChrist
New Member
Job 18:2 How long will it be ere ye make an end of words? mark, and afterwards we will speak.
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The Cross - Holy or Unholy symbol
- Thread starter gtbuzzarp
- Start date
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
Amen, Brother Standing.
If they will not receive your witness, have no more to do with it and go on.
If they will not receive your witness, have no more to do with it and go on.
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
and now, I will follow my own advice and bow out gracefully.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
thank you for that advice, HBSMN.
That is what I will do.
That is what I will do.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
I guess that means you have nothing left with which to debate my last two posts.
Bye.
Bye.
epistemaniac
New Member
there is no defending the indefensible....
blessings,
Ken
blessings,
Ken
Bolding a word does not change its meaning or the meaning of the comment. It is by no strech of the imagination mis-quoteing. It only highlights something I am trying to point out in your comment.
That is you questioning everybodys salvation. Something nobody has done to you.
Check out this site -- lots of information on different types of crosses:
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/symbols/cross.htm
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/symbols/cross.htm
epistemaniac
New Member
All my life, I have been surrounded by the belief that the t-shaped cross was a symbol for Christ's crucifixion, and even though it was used as a pagan symbol long ago, I am concerned only with what it NOW represents. Throughout the USA, a cross atop a building, or on its doors or windows, a wall, etc. indicates a church sanctuary.
To me, the cross represents JESUS, and what He did in our behalf. I shall continue to regard it as such.
To me, the cross represents JESUS, and what He did in our behalf. I shall continue to regard it as such.
epistemaniac
New Member
amen... and the same ought to be true for those who, when they see the triquestra, are reminded of the Trinity... if that is what it represents for them.... the following passage speaks to the issue well I think....
Rom 14:1-23 esv As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
(2) One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
(3) Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
(4) Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
(5) One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
(6) The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
(7) For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
(8) If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
(9) For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
(10) Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
(11) for it is written,
(12) So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
(13) Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
(14) I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.
(15) For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.
(16) So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.
(17) For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
(18) Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
(19) So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
(20) Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.
(21) It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
(22) The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
(23) But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."
blessings,
Ken
standingfirminChrist
New Member
One cannot use something that portrays evil and justify it by saying they see God in it.
KJV Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Saying using the triquesta to represent Christ is not good, so Romans 14 passage does not apply.
KJV Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Saying using the triquesta to represent Christ is not good, so Romans 14 passage does not apply.
epistemaniac
New Member
stendingfirm, your exegetical skills are non-existent... what? do you expect me to believe your interpretation is correct just because you say it is? uh uh... not gonna happen... the fact is, the passage is directly applicable to this subject.. one in which one's own conscience approves or rejects the use of this symbol....
Clarke says in re to Ro 14:1 ff "Do not reject any from your Christian communion because of their particular sentiments on things which are in themselves indifferent. Do not curiously inquire into their religious scruples, nor condemn them on that account. Entertain a brother of this kind rather with what may profit his soul, than with curious disquisitions on speculative points of doctrine. A good lesson for modern Christians in general."
Gill states, in re to "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind"; "this is the advice the apostle gives to both parties; his sense is, that he would have each of them fully enjoy their own principle and practice undisturbed; he would have the weak brother, that esteemed one day above another, indulged in his way, since it arose from weakness, until he had better light, nor should he be despised for his weakness; he would have the stronger Christian also peaceably enjoy his sentiment, and pursue what he believed to be right; nor should he be judged, censured, and condemned, as a profane person, and a transgressor of the law: his counsel is, that they would sit down and carefully examine the word of God, and act according to the best light they should receive from thence; and take care especially, that they did not act contrary to their own consciences, with doubt and hesitation; they ought to be thoroughly satisfied in their own minds, and being so, should content themselves with their different sentiments and practices, without despising or censuring one another."
As far as the Ro 14 passage goes, it would apply to you as the "weaker brother"... that is, as one who's conscience has not been fully informed in the grace that comes from serving Christ, ie that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but that which comes out...that an inanimate shape holds no power over the person who is in Christ.... because the inanimate symbol is nothing in and of itself.... but for you, the weaker brother, it is bothersome, so it's pretty simple for you.... do don't use it!!! lol... but.. to him who is stronger, one is is fully aware of the liberty they have in Christ, the symbol can be taken to represent the Trinity in the same way that the sign of the Cross has come to symbolize Christ's work of atonement as the means of bring many sinners to Himself as He bore the penalty of sin on the cross vicariously for those that are His sheep.
and since I did not get the memo from God that said that you were the ultimate judge as to what should be binding on another person's conscience, I am free to defend others against your judgmental attitude, an attitude you have that makes you think that you are in a position to judge others for what you personally think is wrong....
if you do not like the symbol, fine, don't use it, but don't think that you are God's gift to the church such that you want to be, or better, think that you actually are, the equivalent of a Pope or something, thinking that you can dictate to others what they can or cannot accept as spiritually meaningful to them, eg symbols that the pagans interpret one way, yet Christians interpret another, this applies to both the sign of the Cross and the sign of the triquestra.... both pagan symbols, but both can be used by Christians to represent some facet of Christianity to the individual Christian.
your inconsistent and really, non existent exegetical skills are further evidenced by your appealing to this: "KJV Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
If you want to apply this to the triquestra, then it must also be applied to the Cross as well, which is often made out of gold, or silver, and a graven image... one that is actually in your own church.... we ought not think the Cross is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. So, until you stop using the Cross, you are being nothing but hypocritical in your denouncing one symbol while accepting another. Jesus well spoke of persons like you when He said
Mar 7:6-9 esv And he said to them, Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
(7) in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
(8) You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.
(9) And he said to them, You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!"
The tradition you are trying to push on people, and it is nothing more then a "tradition of man" since nowhere does the Bible explicitly say "thou shalt not use the triquestra to represent the Trinity", and it is a tradition you will not even bear yourself, since you on the one hand deny that others may use a symbol to represent the trinity, while you keep for yourself the symbol of the Cross. Tsk tsk....
Mat 23:1-4 esv Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
(2) The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
(3) so practice and observe whatever they tell you not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
(4) They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
Mar 7:13 esv thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."
Luk 6:42 esv How can you say to your brother, Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye, when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
blessings,
Ken
Clarke says in re to Ro 14:1 ff "Do not reject any from your Christian communion because of their particular sentiments on things which are in themselves indifferent. Do not curiously inquire into their religious scruples, nor condemn them on that account. Entertain a brother of this kind rather with what may profit his soul, than with curious disquisitions on speculative points of doctrine. A good lesson for modern Christians in general."
Gill states, in re to "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind"; "this is the advice the apostle gives to both parties; his sense is, that he would have each of them fully enjoy their own principle and practice undisturbed; he would have the weak brother, that esteemed one day above another, indulged in his way, since it arose from weakness, until he had better light, nor should he be despised for his weakness; he would have the stronger Christian also peaceably enjoy his sentiment, and pursue what he believed to be right; nor should he be judged, censured, and condemned, as a profane person, and a transgressor of the law: his counsel is, that they would sit down and carefully examine the word of God, and act according to the best light they should receive from thence; and take care especially, that they did not act contrary to their own consciences, with doubt and hesitation; they ought to be thoroughly satisfied in their own minds, and being so, should content themselves with their different sentiments and practices, without despising or censuring one another."
As far as the Ro 14 passage goes, it would apply to you as the "weaker brother"... that is, as one who's conscience has not been fully informed in the grace that comes from serving Christ, ie that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but that which comes out...that an inanimate shape holds no power over the person who is in Christ.... because the inanimate symbol is nothing in and of itself.... but for you, the weaker brother, it is bothersome, so it's pretty simple for you.... do don't use it!!! lol... but.. to him who is stronger, one is is fully aware of the liberty they have in Christ, the symbol can be taken to represent the Trinity in the same way that the sign of the Cross has come to symbolize Christ's work of atonement as the means of bring many sinners to Himself as He bore the penalty of sin on the cross vicariously for those that are His sheep.
and since I did not get the memo from God that said that you were the ultimate judge as to what should be binding on another person's conscience, I am free to defend others against your judgmental attitude, an attitude you have that makes you think that you are in a position to judge others for what you personally think is wrong....
if you do not like the symbol, fine, don't use it, but don't think that you are God's gift to the church such that you want to be, or better, think that you actually are, the equivalent of a Pope or something, thinking that you can dictate to others what they can or cannot accept as spiritually meaningful to them, eg symbols that the pagans interpret one way, yet Christians interpret another, this applies to both the sign of the Cross and the sign of the triquestra.... both pagan symbols, but both can be used by Christians to represent some facet of Christianity to the individual Christian.
your inconsistent and really, non existent exegetical skills are further evidenced by your appealing to this: "KJV Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
If you want to apply this to the triquestra, then it must also be applied to the Cross as well, which is often made out of gold, or silver, and a graven image... one that is actually in your own church.... we ought not think the Cross is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. So, until you stop using the Cross, you are being nothing but hypocritical in your denouncing one symbol while accepting another. Jesus well spoke of persons like you when He said
Mar 7:6-9 esv And he said to them, Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
(7) in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
(8) You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.
(9) And he said to them, You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!"
The tradition you are trying to push on people, and it is nothing more then a "tradition of man" since nowhere does the Bible explicitly say "thou shalt not use the triquestra to represent the Trinity", and it is a tradition you will not even bear yourself, since you on the one hand deny that others may use a symbol to represent the trinity, while you keep for yourself the symbol of the Cross. Tsk tsk....
Mat 23:1-4 esv Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
(2) The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
(3) so practice and observe whatever they tell you not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
(4) They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
Mar 7:13 esv thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."
Luk 6:42 esv How can you say to your brother, Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye, when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
blessings,
Ken