The Cross - Holy or Unholy symbol

[Bro. James]

Back to the question--holy or unholy crosses?

"God is Spirit, they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth"

"This do in remembrance of Me"

Crosses are in the same category as prayer beads and "holy" water--pagan in origin. God is jealous--especially about pagan idolatry and the trappings thereof.

My vote: unholy

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[DeeJay]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18

A cross is just a visual aid for the message of the cross being preached.

Worshiping the cross, or counting on it to protect you somehow is a different story.

My vote. the cross is neither holy or unholy it is an object.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

After reading back over the posts and talking with my wife, I admit I was incorrect in saying that the flag in the church was Mississippi flag.

One must understand two things. Where I was ordained 15 years ago, we did not have one flag in our church. I never questioned why. When I started a church in North Carolina two flags were donated to the church after several months. One was the North Carolina State Flag. When I moved to Mississippi and started going to this church, I saw the white flag and I thought it was the mississippi state flag. The original one was indeed white with a blue square with white star and a red stripe down the side. I saw the white and automatically thought of the state flag.

One must also realize that I am blind. I don't see like you guys see. For me to see detail on something, I must be right up on it, whereas I am sure the majority of people on the BB have perfect if not near 20/20 vision.

Most of what I see is shadows, images without faces.

I was mistaken, you can stop crucifying me now.

Concerning the remark I made in the other thread about pagan symbols and alcohol, I was being sarcastic. You know, if you study through the old testament, you will find Elijah was sarcastic with the prophets of Ba'al. In the new testament we even see Jesus sarcastic with the Pharisees.

I have not attacked a single person on this board. I have only stated the truth as God has revealed it to me. And instead of discussing matters in the threads, I was attacked over and over and over. And those doing the attacking are accusing me of being the attacker.

I did not attack anyone. I spoke against the message. And because I spoke against the message, my character is attacked. Some even accused me falsely of being in the occult.

I speak against an occultic symbol that began in the pagan camp, and am accused of being in the occult?

I forgive my attackers, but I will not back down from what God has spoken to my heart concerning the Triqueta, alcohol, rock music, or any other thing I have addressed on the BB.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by His Blood Spoke My Name:
Mr Tony,

I will go look at topics standing has posted in and read his posts, I will get back to you on it.

Apparently they only allow you to go back 50 posts, but I can gather a lot from those, I surmise.

Not particularly getting into this discussion, at least now, but welcome anyhow, to the BB. Oh yeah, yo' might check yore closet for some asbestos clothing. Gets a bit warm here, at times, with summertime heat approaching, say, temps above that of Badwater in Death Valley!

In His grace,
Ed

 

[genesis12]

You're an overcomer, SFIC. "I was blind, but now I see" seems appropriate. Keep on keepin' on.

 

[Bro Tony]

As has been stated in here by Ed it can get hot. It is funny peoples perception of things and how they come across to others. We all act on out perceptions of what someone else has said. I appreciates SFIC acknowledgement of error and will receive it without prejudice. I too have been perceived by another as being in error and "attacking" another poster, that was not my intent. How does one deal with perceived falsehoods without confronting them? How can on point out obvious faults in logic and accusations against those you don't agree with, without confronting them?

For those who perceived that I had personally attacked them, I do apologize and hope you will forgive me. I am really concerned that if we are going to debate, and this is a debate forum, that we do not so easily make ourselves the victim. As it seems that some of what I said is being viewed as attacking a brother in Christ, it may be better that I refrain from sharing with that brother as I honestly don't want to do anything to bring harm to another. God bless you all, and I have enjoyed letting your iron sharpen my iron.

Bro Tony

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by His Blood Spoke My Name:
epistomaniac,

I went to the site you posted and the church does indeed have a steeple on it and sits in front of a sidewalk that is in the shape of more of a T than a cross. But you are missing something there. It says that that church no longer belongs to his congregation, it was sold to another denomination.

Going to the home page, I see the church they are in and see none of those pagan symbols you accuse this man of having.

These accusations are uncalled for from someone who claims to be of the body of Christ.

James 4:1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?

As I said, it is others doing the attacking, not standing.

LOL.... ok... I should have heeded other's warnings about attempting humor... I prefaced all that stuff about their early church building with:

"warning warning warning sarcasm ahead......."

or didn't you catch that part? lol....

meanwhile, back at the ranch... from an earlier post:

Standing firm’s “high ground” in quotations.....

Accusing those who disagree with him of blasphemy:

"Not gonna look at an occultic symbol and say the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost can be seen in it. That is blasphemy."

Accusing those who disagree with him of being involved in occultic activities, of witchcraft and satanic:

“one cannot rightly look at that which is associated with the occult and say they see God in it.
My God is not in the symbols of witchcraft. My Lord is not in that which is satanic. My comforter is not in anything associated with evil.”

Accusing those who disagree with him of using pagan and satanic symbols, of being deceived, all while they are supposedly drinking alcohol;

"you can laugh and mock all you want. Go ahead and see God in the pagan and satanic symbols while drinking your alcohol.
I choose not to allow the devil to deceive me.”


Accusing those who disagree with him of being under the power of Satan:

“mk,

Yer right. The pagan and occultic symbols have no power over the child of God.
Which makes one wonder about...
Those who continue to insist that there is nothing occultic about those symbols and that they see the trinity in them.”

Accusing those who disagree with him of being spiritually blind:
“My blindness is physical, but I think a spiritual blindness to the objects of the occult is much worse.”

Casting doubt on the salvation of others for disagreeing with him:
“How can someone who claims to be of Christ carry around or wear a symbol that is used of satan?”

Accusing those who disagree with him of not following the word of God:
“Now, will you follow the Word of God and stop defending that which is pagan, the Triquestra?”

Accusing those who disagree with him of serving the devil, as if disagreeing with him is tantamount to disagreeing with God:
“Your attacking me for standing for the things of God and against the things of satan tell me who you really serve.”

Accusing those who disagree with him of being blinded by Satan:
“Satan really got you guys blinded.”

Accusing those who disagree with him of being ignorant and deceived:
“We are not to be ignorant of satans devices, and yet, so many are deceived to believe that that which is associated with satan can be used in God's church.”

Accusing those who disagree with him of being in the devil’s camp:
“So that takes it back once again to the devil's camp.”

Accusing those who disagree with him of drinking of the cup and table of devils, even though the passage he cited relates to the Lord’s Supper and has nothing to do with the subject at hand:
“1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
In using a cultic symbol identifying it as the trinity, one is indeed doing that.”

Accusing others of being liars:
“It is not I sir that has lied, but you.”

Accusing those who disagree with him of worshipping the triquestra:
"I do not worship the cross, but the Lord who died on the cross.
I do cherish the story of the crucifixion, but I do not worship the symbol of the crucifixion.”

Accusing those who disagree with him of not hearing God:
“It is a shame when people who claim to be of God turn their ears from hearing the truth.”

So (as I said before) don't give me any bunk about standing firm having the "high ground". Strong words have been used by all.

the real point behind all this is the proud arrogant attitude displayed by standingform in that it seems he simply cannot bring himself to say he was wrong.... and that, is sad....


blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

ahhh... I stand corrected... despite there are many many excuses... despite the cocky way standingfirm said things like "Don't you guys think I know what is in my own church!" etc... an admittance of error has happened!!!! yyyyaaayyyyyy! lol...

blessings
Ken

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

mr epistomaniac,

You are in err. As I stated early this morning, those statements are not accusing anyone of being satanic. He only questions how one who claims to be of God can claim God can be seen in those occultic symbols. I would like to know the answer as well.

All through the old testament, God told His people to destroy idols, destroy evil people and all that they owned; not to keep any of their possessions for their own.

Why would God allow that which originated with Jewish mystics to be clung to by His people. Acts 17:29 was posted by someone in those threads in the KJV. Let me post that verse in my NASB...

Acts 17:29 "Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

I will post verse 30 as well, for I feel it is necessary...

Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent,

To repent means to turn away from. God wants man to turn away from thinking "that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

Standing is correct in saying that we should not see the Holy Trinity in that Unholy Symbol. Those two verses back that up.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by His Blood Spoke My Name:
mr epistomaniac,

You are in err. As I stated early this morning, those statements are not accusing anyone of being satanic. He only questions how one who claims to be of God can claim God can be seen in those occultic symbols. I would like to know the answer as well.

All through the old testament, God told His people to destroy idols, destroy evil people and all that they owned; not to keep any of their possessions for their own.

Why would God allow that which originated with Jewish mystics to be clung to by His people. Acts 17:29 was posted by someone in those threads in the KJV. Let me post that verse in my NASB...

Acts 17:29 "Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

I will post verse 30 as well, for I feel it is necessary...

Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent,

To repent means to turn away from. God wants man to turn away from thinking "that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

Standing is correct in saying that we should not see the Holy Trinity in that Unholy Symbol. Those two verses back that up.

Have you been hired by SFIC as his bodyguard

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

mr webdog,

No, I am a defender of the faith, enlisted in the service of the Lord by Jesus Christ Himself.

If you were making a statement that lined up with the Word of God, I would probably appear to be your bodyguard as well.

 

[webdog]

...then I don't know why you are defending SFIC, as he did no such thing.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

What in the world is it that standing did contrary to the Word of God. All I see is he pointed out the truth of the triqueta being a symbol that originated with the pagans. And he is automatically made a martyr for that belief.

And now, I guess I am in the same category, for I too believe that we are not to use a pagan symbol to represent God.

But all I can say is fire away.

Matthew 5:11-12 "Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. 12 "Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

[menageriekeeper]

The problem is, that he can't back up with scripture that which he makes out to be sin.

We do not worship symbols and if Standing Firm was preaching againt worshiping symbols then I doubt there would be a person here arguing with him. USING a symbol, ANY symbol, to represent the Bible or something about it is NOT SIN, unless it is intended to bring disrespect to God. It might be unwise, expecially if the symbol causes controversy, but SIN? I don't think so.

Nor do mere symbols have any power over a Christian that we do not give to them willingly. Standing Firm continues to argue that using certain symbols to represent aspects of the Bible is sin.

Now you did a little bit better by presenting scripture that you believe backs up you postion, but since we are not using the symbol of the cross as an object of worship but as a mere decoration, your scriptures don't apply (IMO of course).

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

menageriekeeper, standing did back up in scripture what he was convicted of concerning the triqueta. Many, because they have believed that the triqueta for many years ignored the history posted and the scripture given.

Standing quoted Acts 17:29 and did explain it; and I emphasized on it and verse 30 from my NASB.

Those passages alone do advocate the stance standing is taking against that symbol.

But the issue seems to be an attack on standing for whatever ungodly reason, and yes I did mean ungodly. James 4 tells us we should not be fighting amongst us. Standing claims to be of Christ and I have no reason to doubt him. He has a zeal to do the will of God and defend its truths.

On the other hand, I see many attacks in which many are doubting his position in Christ.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Other's debated his interpretation of those scriptures, just as I have already pointed out to you that we do not WORSHIP the symbols we use to describe/communicate aspects of our faith.

Now the scriptures you have quoted work fine to warn us of idol worship. But you can't show me that the same applies to a mere symbol. Why? Because every letter and number we use in written communication is also used by pagans for pagan uses. Did God inspire Christian's with their own non-pagan language's? I think not! To say that using a symbol that at one time described something pagan is akin to idol worship is wrong and can't be substantiated by scripture.

Now, as for the scriptures you have quoted from Acts, let me quote an earlier verse: For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as unknown I am going to proclaim to you. Acts 17:23

Gasp?!!! Did Paul just use a PAGAN inscription to describe our God? But pagan things could never be used or associated with a Holy God such as ours? Least wise that's what Standing Firm has said. The below quote is from the other thread on symbols:

one cannot rightly look at that which is associated with the occult and say they see God in it. (quote by Standing Firm in Christ from this thread

This is the heart of all the debate and this is a debate forum.

 

[saturneptune]

A cross symbol is either unholy or neither, never holy. If the person involved worships it, it is unholy. If it is a symbol that represents a persons relationship to Jesus Christ, it is neutral. (IMHO)

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Was Achan right in bringing in the pagan articles into his tent?

Did not Paul write that we are not to see the Godhead in art by man?

Standing pointed out that as I have.

We cannot advocate having the triqueta in the christian camp as standing pointed out.

If it used to be sin then, I would say it is still sin today.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Back up a little bit farther, mk. In verse 16, we find this written.

Acts 17:16 16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was beholding the city full of idols.
NASB

Paul was addressing the fact that they had idols in their midst and apparently were seeing them as God, just as many have professed they see the Trinity in the triqueta.

But go on down and you still see that God does not want people seeing the Godhead in those things of art formed by man. He now commands all men everywhere to repent, to turn away from them... not defend them as of Him.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by His Blood Spoke My Name:
mr epistomaniac,

You are in err. As I stated early this morning, those statements are not accusing anyone of being satanic. He only questions how one who claims to be of God can claim God can be seen in those occultic symbols. I would like to know the answer as well.

All through the old testament, God told His people to destroy idols, destroy evil people and all that they owned; not to keep any of their possessions for their own.

Why would God allow that which originated with Jewish mystics to be clung to by His people. Acts 17:29 was posted by someone in those threads in the KJV. Let me post that verse in my NASB...

Acts 17:29 "Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

I will post verse 30 as well, for I feel it is necessary...

Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent,

To repent means to turn away from. God wants man to turn away from thinking "that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

Standing is correct in saying that we should not see the Holy Trinity in that Unholy Symbol. Those two verses back that up.

So do you reject the symbol of the Cross because of it's pagan origins?

Secondly, to direct you to this comment:

You are in err. As I stated early this morning, those statements are not accusing anyone of being satanic. He only questions how one who claims to be of God can claim God can be seen in those occultic symbols. I would like to know the answer as well.

First, you have to say "You are in error" or "You err" not "You are in err", be that as it may, I am in no such place.

Ok, so both you and he doubt that someone can simply think of the triquestra as a symbol of the Trinity and still be a Christian.... that they can still be of God? Is that right? That is what you are saying..... And you wonder what the problem is!! ROFLOL!!! If you wonder if persons like myself can really "be of God", then if we are not "of God", then who, pray tell, would be be of...?

blessings,
Ken