Student: Seniors united to acknowledge God at graduation

I never said they broke any law, I just said that your defense using we should obey God before man is weak at best, becuase these students were not told to do anything that violated God's Scripture, nor were they told to not do something that violated God's Scripture.

The reason the comparison of these graduates and the Apostles and others in the Bible is valid is because it was the religious content of what they were doing that offended the atheist.

Click to expand...

I would agree with that, but from reading your post it made it sound like you were trying to argue that these students were defying the government in the same way that these folks did.

I think those two situations are quite different, because in each case that you mentioned they were asked to do something that violated God's Scripture or to not do something that violated God's Scripture, which is different than these students.

My apology for misreading your intent.

Corporate prayer is mostly ceremonial and certainly should not be forced upon unwilling participants.

Click to expand...

OK, coming from a political viewpoint, where did it say that this atheist was going to be forced to participate?

Unless it violates community standards, I would hazard that almost anything else would be fair game for the speech, except for something that expresses Christian principles.

How about forcing the majority to not be able to participate?

If an atheist wants to eliminate the prayer, then he should become valedictorian, and he could then determine the course of the speech.

Schools are free to spout all sorts of Secular Humanist propaganda and ideas down the throats of our children, day in and day out, and they are taught "tolerance" for every religion on the face of the Earth, but don't you dare mention God! Separation of church and state, you know!

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Christianity and the Gospel are offensive to non-believers, and surprise, so is the idea of Christians taking a stand for their Christian convictions. If you are not sure about whether there is Biblical grounds for defying government restrictions of free worship and prayer, just check out Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendago. It seems to me that they all defied the law of the land when it went against the law of God. Then there was this whole matter with the apostles preaching the Word of God even though they were repeatedly told to stop. Yes we are to obey the government (Romans 13), but we must obey God before we do men.
Joseph Botwinick

Click to expand...

Neither of these instances from the Bible is a valid analogy. In the first case, Daniel and his friends were captured prisoners in a foreign country and told not to pray at all. That is not the same as not praying at a graduation ceremony. Now, if some judge said no one could pray at all, that would be different.

In the second case, it was not the law of the land but the high priests who told the apostles not to preach the word. So are you saying that's the same thing? How is it the same thing?

No one is keeping us in this country from practicing our faith.

I don't see the parallels.

There was a time when people shared their faith with the lost. Now that has subsided among many in favor of a make me feel good religion.

gb,

Are you stating that the folks in this community do not share their faith with the lost and that they have fell into feel good religion? What evidence do you have of this?

Joseph Botwinick

What is pathetic is the fact that evangelical christians on this board can't determine whether or not the actions of these students was right or wrong.
The atheist boy who started this whole mess has more guts to stand up for what he believes is right. So much so that look what ONE person did who had courage to stand up for their ideals can do.
To bad so many evangelicals today {many on this board } are more concerned with offending some poor joe who is worshiping a dead God.
Rather than standing up for GOD ALMIGHTY who by his sovereign will has blessed this nation like none other on the face of the earth throughout all of human history.
I think if kids want to give

God His proper place which is ABOVE all other gods then that is the right thing.
Yes there is what is known as right and wrong, black and white .
This is a christian nation. IF it is going to remain one then some of you folk need to get some backbone.
This atheistic kid was free to believe what he wants. It just so happens we live in a democracy in this country at least in theory. Therefore, majority rules within the bounds of law etc...
I'm sick and tired of evangelicals thinking everything has got to be discussed and debated etc... Some things are not up for debate.
Praying in public to God Almighty is one.
If this little snot nosed kid thinks america is so bad then maybe he should have lived back in the U.S.S.R. at the height of communism.
He would have found out how exciting and rewarding a athestic society would have been.
It is luke warm, can't decide, lack of boldness,gutless christians that are going to help usher in socialism/ communism into this country. All because when taking a stand would have been what was needed they were to busy trying to decide is this gonna hurt Harry or Sally's feelings?
In case some of you forgot there are some that are just not going to be saved and that is it. You can only speak the truth in love and then let God deal with them. At the same time you have to do what is right.

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Are you stating that the folks in this community do not share their faith with the lost and that they have fell into feel good religion? What evidence do you have of this?

Click to expand...

It is all over in America not just in one place. Just listen to other people who come from other countries. They will tell you they are praying for America. They are seriously concerned.

In 1999 I heard Bobby Welch say that since about the middle 50's churches across America have been on a steady decline of between one to two percent each year. Certainly when you were in seminary you should have heard that all over the place in many of your classes. Within the past four years Jimmy Draper has expressed serious concerns about this matter. Just listen to the church growth folks in the SBC. If you were in seminary you should have heard that church attendance has dropped off by about 1/3 from one generation to the next.

A friend of mine who was in another country as a missionary for over 25 years came back and the first thing he mentioned was about how much the preaching and evangelism had changed. I am surprised that you would ask for evidence when you should know if you read http://bpnews.net/ and http://www.abpnews.com/.

So you don't really have any evidence, just stories that you hear from other folks. Thanks.

Joseph Botwinick

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
So you don't really have any evidence, just stories that you hear from other folks. Thanks.

Click to expand...

The numbers are available if you really want them. I have seen the numbers for myself. But in the end I must trust the number collectors.

I am sure you could get the statistics from Bobby Welch. When I heard him speak he had a graph showing the decline. Barna writes about the same things. Mark Noll has some of the same statistics.

You have the numbers for this community? Sure...let's see them.

Joseph Botwinick

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Christianity and the Gospel are offensive to non-believers, and surprise, so is the idea of Christians taking a stand for their Christian convictions. If you are not sure about whether there is Biblical grounds for defying government restrictions of free worship and prayer, just check out Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendago. It seems to me that they all defied the law of the land when it went against the law of God. Then there was this whole matter with the apostles preaching the Word of God even though they were repeatedly told to stop. Yes we are to obey the government (Romans 13), but we must obey God before we do men.
Joseph Botwinick

Click to expand...

Neither of these instances from the Bible is a valid analogy. In the first case, Daniel and his friends were captured prisoners in a foreign country and told not to pray at all. That is not the same as not praying at a graduation ceremony. Now, if some judge said no one could pray at all, that would be different.

In the second case, it was not the law of the land but the high priests who told the apostles not to preach the word. So are you saying that's the same thing? How is it the same thing?

No one is keeping us in this country from practicing our faith.

I don't see the parallels. </font>[/QUOTE]There are those who burn the flag in public as protest against the government policies(when in fact the flag represents the country as a whole and not just the government, but I digress) and claim "free speech".

There are those who travel to foreign countries and bad mouth our President in an irresponsible way, and again claim "free speech"

But when a christian or group of christians pray in public all of the sudden free speech is thrown out the window. Faith should be kept a private matter is the lie that is perpetuated. after all it is grevious to subject a non-believer to a prayer. But subjecting a flag burning to a true patriot of america should be tolerated.

If those kids chose of their own accord to pray at their graduation ceremony then it falls under several guidlines:

1. free speech
2. equal access
3. moral imperative
4. scriptually sound theology

The truth is it is a lie straight from the pit of hell that we as christians should hold our tongue in public. Our faith is as much public as it is private. If you wish to continue to pereptuate Satans lie, I would suggest that you work hard to find repentence so that you do not have to face Gods' chastisement.

Originally posted by shannonL:
God His proper place which is ABOVE all other gods then that is the right thing.
Yes there is what is known as right and wrong, black and white .
This is a christian nation. IF it is going to remain one then some of you folk need to get some backbone.
This atheistic kid was free to believe what he wants. It just so happens we live in a democracy in this country at least in theory. Therefore, majority rules within the bounds of law etc...
I'm sick and tired of evangelicals thinking everything has got to be discussed and debated etc... Some things are not up for debate.
Praying in public to God Almighty is one.
If this little snot nosed kid thinks america is so bad then maybe he should have lived back in the U.S.S.R. at the height of communism.

Click to expand...

Interesting confluence of phrases here: "a Christian nation" and "a snot nosed kid."

[FONT=Trebuchet MS,arial]A few examples of public prayer -

Ezra 10:1: "While Ezra prayed and made confession, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, a very great assembly of men, women, and children, gathered to him out of Israel; for the people wept bitterly."
Mark 6:41: "And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all."
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS,arial]John 11:41 to 42: [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS,arial]Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."
Matthew 19:13-15: "Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not…."
Acts 20:36: "And when he had spoken thus, he knelt down and prayed with them all. And they all wept and and embraced Paul…"
[/FONT]Acts 4:24 - 30: "And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said,’Sovereign Lord, who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them….And now Lord, look upon their threats , and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness….And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken…"

The students and parents in Russell Springs were pushed and they pushed back, in a perfectly legal way.

I don't think your references parallel what happened at this graduation. They did not spontaneously pray -- it was planned and carried out as a protest. At least, that's the way it sounds.

I don't see how what happened was being salt and light. It comes across as defiant, not humble. It comes across as making a point, not glorifying Christ.

Marcia said:

I don't think your references parallel what happened at this graduation. They did not spontaneously pray -- it was planned and carried out as a protest. At least, that's the way it sounds.

I don't see how what happened was being salt and light. It comes across as defiant, not humble. It comes across as making a point, not glorifying Christ.

Click to expand...

So in your mind prayer has to be spontaneous or it is not genuine? The protest did not come from the ones praying. It came from the athiest. They just did not let Satan hinder their including God in a very big moment in their lives.

Perceiving this was defiant and a protest is conjecture. And it is this kind of conjecture that unnecessarily raises emotions. Why can we not take them at their word? Why must they be mistrusted? Why must they be the recipients of unjustified accusations?

Marcia said:

I don't think your references parallel what happened at this graduation. They did not spontaneously pray -- it was planned and carried out as a protest. At least, that's the way it sounds.

I don't see how what happened was being salt and light. It comes across as defiant, not humble. It comes across as making a point, not glorifying Christ.

Click to expand...

I posted those references because some were saying that God does not allow public prayer.

As RevMitchell pointed out, the students did not set out to make a point, they only responded.

I also don't see why "making a point" and "glorifying God" have to be mutually exclusive.

Marcia said:

I don't think your references parallel what happened at this graduation. They did not spontaneously pray -- it was planned and carried out as a protest. At least, that's the way it sounds.

I don't see how what happened was being salt and light. It comes across as defiant, not humble. It comes across as making a point, not glorifying Christ.

Click to expand...

How would that compare to what Daniel did? Was his not planned?

I think the situation with Daniel is a different category. If I recall correctly, he was told not to pray at all, anywhere. If we were captured by a foreign power and that power's leaders told us we could not pray anywhere at all, then we'd be in the same boat as he was.

In fact, why is it that Daniel is trotted out for this when I hear many missionaries say that in coutries where it's illegal to convert to Christianity, the Christians need to meet underground and can't pray openly. Why are they not praying so others can see them the way Daniel did?

Christians have it so easy in the country. I wonder if all these students would have prayed the way they did if they were in a country where they were told they could be killed for praying in public?