Student: Seniors united to acknowledge God at graduation

[bapmom]

My comment on that Marcia is that I agree that we ought to be more consistent in what we stand for. Personally I did not go to see Da Vinci Code and I don't intend to.

I don't usually get involved in public protests, maybe it's something I ought to do more. I know many people draw a line of distinction between their own actions and what they consider entertainment. I believe this is not a good distinction to make. We ought to be entertained by good things, and not just let that area slip by saying "well its just entertainment."

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
Matthew 6

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Is it a correct assumption that you pray (if you do at all) only in your own closet [room] with the door closed? You never pray at church, in a Bible study group, at the dinner table (unless you eat alone in your closed room)....?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by bapmom:
My comment on that Marcia is that I agree that we ought to be more consistent in what we stand for. Personally I did not go to see Da Vinci Code and I don't intend to.

I don't usually get involved in public protests, maybe it's something I ought to do more. I know many people draw a line of distinction between their own actions and what they consider entertainment. I believe this is not a good distinction to make. We ought to be entertained by good things, and not just let that area slip by saying "well its just entertainment."

Thanks for your comments, bapmom. I'm glad you see part of what I was saying.

Do you see this prayer as a public protest? If so, then that is exactly my point. A prayer should not be a public protest.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Alcott, I just quoted scripture. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the author.

 

[Alcott]

Since you are a coward to answer Yes or No, it's a fair assumption you do not carry out that scripture you quoted exactly as it's stated. So, why do you quote scripture and claim it should be imposed on others while you do not follow it yourself? There's a word for that and it starts with an H.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Alcott, no cowardice. I posted scripture without comment.

However, I believe the correct interpretation of this scripture is that prayer is an intimate and private conversation between an individual and God, not necessarily a literal closet.

Corporate prayer is mostly ceremonial and certainly should not be forced upon unwilling participants. The students in question violated both the letter and spirit of the quoted passage.

Also, ad hominems do nothing to advance your point, if you actually have one. So what's with the name calling?

(self edited - just not worth it)

[ May 26, 2006, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Magnetic Poles ]

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Drat...double post!

 

[genesis12]

Well golly gosh and gee whiz. Isn't it interesting that praying and invoking God's presence at graduation was normal and expected across the USA for 215 years? We were a nation of Christians. Our original elementary school texts were based on the Bible. Prayer in school was normal. Prayer anywhere was normal. No one in any educational system I was a part of, from 1st grade thru post-grad, questioned another's belief system, except, perhaps, in the process of witnessing, and then very carefully! No one doubted that a town could be known as a "Christian" town. No one found fault with that. It has only been in recent years that the ACLU and the courts have found something wrong with all of it. The tragic ending to this story is that the USA is going down the tubes to rampant secularism, immorality, selfishness, tolerance, relativism (no truth), heretical and blasphemous interpretations of God's grace through Jesus Christ, churches who don't deserve the title, Islam the fastest growing religion in the USA, Roman Catholicism invading from Mexico and points south, much of it intertwined with paganism ....... and squelching of prayer, from graduation to the capitol complex in D.C. Don't you dare pray on the steps of the capitol, or outside the Supreme Court!

I remember the song we sang in Vacation Bible School: "This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine."

Let it shine, graduates, let it shine .

Soon enough it will be "This little light of mine, I may let it shine, if the ACLU and the courts let me, but then only if they sign a disclaimer against suing me later, and the news media agree to leave me alone, and my brothers and sisters in Christ don't question it...". Has a nice ring to it, huh?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

One let's their light shine by the way they live and treat their fellow human beings. Forcing one's religion on others at a public event is just rude.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I'm still out on this one....

I know from teaching kids that age that kids can get caught up in something just for the "political" ramifications of it. So can a community.

A prayer shouldn't be an "in YOUR face" grievance to a government. And with 2000 people in the audience cheering and making a fuss over the kids when they prayed, that's what the prayer turned out to be.

I wonder which ones of these kids who stood up and prayed were the ones who teased this atheist boy and called him "evil".

I'm all for community wide and school wide prayer.

But I'm still out on this one...

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
I posted scripture without comment.

Big deal. How many people do that?

Corporate prayer is mostly ceremonial and certainly should not be forced upon unwilling participants. The students in question violated both the letter and spirit of the quoted passage.

Did Jesus himself violate the letter and spirit of what he had just said when he said the 'model prayer' in front of thousands of people? What are the chances, after all, that some of them who heard him didn't believe as he did and therefore had it "forced" upon them?

Also, ad hominems do nothing to advance your point, if you actually have one. So what's with the name calling?

If you want more scripture, I can change the namecalling to a female fox, as Jesus called Herod.

(self edited - just not worth it)

I wouldn't say that; every self is worth it, including you.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Alcott, I am amazed that reading the uncommented words of our Lord could incite you to call your brother a coward and a hypocrite. Shame on you. Still, I forgive you, even though you are reticent to issue an apology.

 

[Scott J]

These conflicts are inevitable when gov't oversteps its bounds and gets involved in the education/indoctrination of the people. It is a well worn point but America's general level of education amazed de Toqueville in the 1830's and virtually all education was done by churches and clergy.

Gov't and in particular any level of gov't regulated by the Bill of Rights is making laws with respect to an establishment of religion when it gets involved in education.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Bapmom, I see the points you are making. But is what we think is fair always the best thing in a case like this? What did this prove? Who did it help?

In fact, the students disobeyed an order from a judge which I think can be argued to go against Rom. 13. Even if that is not the case, this seems more like an act of pride than anything. Saying the Lord's Prayer looks like an act of defiance -- shouldn't we reserve such things for worship?

I see no benefits from this except that the students got satisfaction from defying a judge's order.

I don't think it defied the court order since it was not organized by the School. Even the ACLU recognized that they did nothing illegal. As for their motives, I see kids who have strong convictions that prayer should have neen a part of the ceremony and took a stand for their convictions. You may not agree, but I think this is a good thing.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Marcia:
They did violate the spirit of the order, even if not the letter of it. But putting that aside, the more important issue to me is what good did this do? This is exactly the kind of thing that turned me away from Christianity (before I was a believer). It just seems smug to me. I don't see how this is Christlike.

You know the spirit of the court order? Would you please show us how you ascertained what was in the heart of a judge who was likely upholding the rule of law?

Christianity and the Gospel are offensive to non-believers, and surprise, so is the idea of Christians taking a stand for their Christian convictions. If you are not sure about whether there is Biblical grounds for defying government restrictions of free worship and prayer, just check out Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendago. It seems to me that they all defied the law of the land when it went against the law of God. Then there was this whole matter with the apostles preaching the Word of God even though they were repeatedly told to stop. Yes we are to obey the government (Romans 13), but we must obey God before we do men.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
Would you like it if a large group of Islamic students started chanting and praying to Allah during your child's graduation?

1. My child would not attend that school.

but,

2. Yes. If they are the majority and it was not organized by the public school, they would have just as much a right as Christians do to express their freedom of religion.

How about you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I see Christians get all heated up over something like this, but then they enjoy the Da Vinci Code, which is pure attack on the deity of Christ, on the church, and on the Bible, even suggesting things that I cannot post here. So how do you explain that?

The Da Vinci Code, Bible Code, and every other idiotic code that has been created by man is an abomination to God and his Word.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Scarlett O.:
I'm still out on this one....

I know from teaching kids that age that kids can get caught up in something just for the "political" ramifications of it. So can a community.

A prayer shouldn't be an "in YOUR face" grievance to a government. And with 2000 people in the audience cheering and making a fuss over the kids when they prayed, that's what the prayer turned out to be.

I wonder which ones of these kids who stood up and prayed were the ones who teased this atheist boy and called him "evil".

I'm all for community wide and school wide prayer.

But I'm still out on this one...

1. I don't see it as an in your face protest. I see a community where the folks have a strong committment that prayer is an important part of their daily and public lives. Their kids stood up for that conviction and the community was proud of them for doing so. You know what? So am I.

2. I think it is a shame that Christians seem to have to be an apologist for the town atheist while deriding the Christians. I think you are too quick to believe the word of the atheist and cast aspersions on the Christian community. Who knows? perhaps he is lying. It has been known to happen you know?

3. As for the atheist being evil...this is just as true as it is with all totally depraved lost folks who are the enemies of Christ. And so were we at one time. Praise the Lord that he saved us from our own free will choice to fight against us and transformed us by the renewing of our minds.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[J. Jump]

just check out Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendago. It seems to me that they all defied the law of the land when it went against the law of God. Then there was this whole matter with the apostles preaching the Word of God even though they were repeatedly told to stop.

I think you are comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes we are to obey the government (Romans 13), but we must obey God before we do men.

Again I don't think this is a good defense for what was done, because we are not commanded to pray before graduations as a collective group. Asking them not to pray as a part of the public ceremony was not violating any of God's commands to us.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

No court ordered them not to pray as part of the public ceremony. The court said it could not be organized by the public school. It wasn't. They broke no law and therefore, are not in any way, in violation of Romans 13.

The reason the comparison of these graduates and the Apostles and others in the Bible is valid is because it was the religious content of what they were doing that offended the atheist.

Joseph Botwinick