What is music?

Is that the one with the guy who actually made the documentary himself to show how he could rip everyone off and get rich?

 

This argument is over-used, and ineffective. There is no class of "yelling and screaming" preachers. That is a made up stereo type, that is wrong. It is more fiction than fact. You might find a few people like that more among Charismatic circles than Baptist circles.
You sometimes find people imitating others. Not everyone is a "Jack Hyles," but there are plenty of young men who try to imitate him, instead of just trying to be the man that God made him to be. Every one is different. Very few preachers actually yell. And I don't know any that scream. Screaming is wrong. A girl would scream if she was being attacke or raped. A pastor or evangelist doesn't scream. I don't know where you are getting that from.

Some of the greatest preachers in the past didn't have much "variety" in their preaching at all.
It is said that when Jonathan Edwards preached his famous "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," which brought about revival, that he read his entire manuscript by the dim light of a lamp. He had a monotone voice, which under normal circumstances would be difficult to listen to. What made the difference. Edwards had prayed all night long beseeching God for the power of the Holy Spirit to rest upon him.
You can't call down the Holy Spirit by yelling and screaming either at God or your congregation!

So we are talking about what is right, according to Scripture, not what people do. Just because people screamed in the past didin't make it right. Screaming whether in music or preaching isn't right. Can you picture Jesus doing it?
Paul said: "Be ye followers of me even as I am of Christ."
DHK

 

I've seen Charismatic "preachers" screaming at individuals trying to "cast" out the demon in the person. But screaming doesn't cast out demons either.

 

"Screaming whether in music or preaching isn't right. Can you picture Jesus doing it?"

Didn't Jesus give up His life with a loud shout?

 

I'm sure Jesus "spoke very loudly" when He was overturning the temple tables!

I must have missed the 11th commandment of "thou shall not yell". Funny how we tell God what sin is (like yelling).

 

It has been pointed out that both the old-time fundamentalist preachers, as well as the charismatics (old and new) as well as modern Church (with its CCM, emotionalism, market strategies, etc) all stem from turn-of the century revivalism, which in turn was heavily influenced by PT Barnum and others from the world. Today, the old-liners and new liners argue over whose styles and methods are "copied from the world", but thay have all been influenced to a certain extent. In the black church, old-line fundamentalism and charismaticism overlapped more, and this is where a lot of the people's memories of "the old hollerin' hellfire preachers" comes from. And I'm sure white charismaticism was more conservative in the past as well. It was the charismatics who were the most infamous for condemning rock and jazz (and all "worldly entertainment", in fact!). Now, they are the ones blamed for its inroads into the modern church! Still, when conservatives lament how modern preachers "no longer preach hell" (which is not really true; they just don't scream or use it to scare people anymore), it seems like they would like us to go back to the screaming fearmongers. I have never seen people who hold your views disclaim the old yelling like that before. People have gone on to blame 9-11 and other tragedies, as well as the "downfall of society" on preachers softening on hell, as if fear of hell is what properly saves people. In fact, when Robertson or Falwell blame "humanism", some people, like BJIII, and other 'separatist' types, and especially the KJVO mvment step in and say "No; it's YOUR fault for compromising, and you should be preaching hell and come out and be ye separate, instead of preaching politics".

So what happened is that he is the one who really popularized fearmongering with hellfire, but in a deep somber scary voice. Then, all that was missing was those later revivalists with the motional fervor and screaming, and then, voila! your screaming hellfire preacher.
Rather than creating a real revival with any amount of spiritual depth (Matt.13:5,6), these tactics just shackled people with fear, but eventually, people got tired of it, and hence, the revolt against the Church culminating with the last half-century. Especially when abuses became more obvious (pastors enriching themselves through the fear tactics; them often getting caught in sins themselves right after pronouncing others to hell; people using God to deny others rights and freedoms, and just the coldness and meanspiritedness that characterized old-time religion). We hold the past up as so "godly" based on the supposed effect of the preaching; compared to today (and this extends to the music), and blame all these "secularists" without, and "compromizers" within; but the old tactics were based on fear, not love (1 John 4:18)

People on your side still seem to be that angry at what others in the world and Church do. Whether you yell or not, it's in people's hearts.

 

OK, Aaron, thank you for clarifying what you meant by perversion .

OK, here's my original definition:

"The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition using the greater or lesser combination of melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre."

Now, start with me and show how these is an open/liberal interpretation possibility using this definition as the starting point.

This should be fun! Let's just be as civil as possible. PLEASE!

 

No, I don't think you understood everything I said in my post.
Look at the style of Jack Hyles. Many imitate him. Its wrong. (not him--but the imitation thereof).
In other words God gives each person their own special talents. Thank God there was only one Jack Hyles in this world. Why in the world would we want hundreds of drones of the same thing? Be yourself if you have graduated from the same thing.

Billy Sunday was professional baseball player, turned to drink, then got saved. He was the kind of preacher that entered in the saloon, overturned tables, stood on a table and preached thundering messages against booze, sometimes yelling, and breaking chairs in the process. Would you imitate him today? Would you crash bars, damage property, and preach and yell at sinners to be saved today? They'd lock you up before you'd get your first statement out. You can't be another man, in another century. Times have changed. To imitate others is wrong, especially imitating other people's styles of preaching.
I can't remember his name off hand. (it will come to me tomorrow). But another old Methodist preacher saved during the old west, out of rough background of booze gunslinging, became a preacher. He became a pastor of a growing church. One day the president happpened to enter his church. The deacons whishpered in his ear before the service to watch what he says because the President was present. He got to the pulpit and said: "I am informed that the President of the United States is in our midst today. I have a message for him. If he doesn't repent and trust Christ like any other sinner he'll be damned and go to hell." Every one was stunned. When the service was over they wondered what the president would do. He wasn't offended at at. He said if he had a regiment with men as bold as he, he would win the war with no trouble at all.
We are all differnt. We all have different gifts. You can't copy that man, though you can be filled with the Spiriti, and be as bold as he was.
So why try and copy the screaming and/or the antics of Billy Sunday. Are you going to go into the bars like he did too?
DHK

 

One person's "yell" is another person's attempt to make a joyful "shout" to the Lord. Many classical pieces end in loud cocophanous strains, som of them considered by critics of the day as "yelling" or "shouting". Mozart and Bach were often criticized for this.

 

I can see what you're saying, Aaron. I believe my definition is structured in such a way to allow the many different genres of musical composition. In other words, I was thinking of far more than church music.

A symphony will have a different MHRT (melody, harmony, rhythm, texture) mix than a vocal ballad. It's the MHRT mix that is fluid. There is no constant MHRT mix.

If you wish to narrow things, please specify. My definition is not specific, but rather broad.

 

One person's "yell" is another person's attempt to make a joyful "shout" to the Lord. Many classical pieces end in loud cocophanous strains, som of them considered by critics of the day as "yelling" or "shouting". Mozart and Bach were often criticized for this. </font>[/QUOTE]Then you have the wrong definition of "yell."
Show me in the Bible where anyone ever "yelled."

"I cried unto the Lord, and he heard me."
David didn't yell.
Yelling isn't a joyful noise.

 

You've clearly never sat near me during a baseball game

 

I went to BJU and graduated from there. I heard Bob Jones III many times. Sure he preached on Hell; but he didn't yell. Speaking loudly and affirmatively isn't yelling. I do that too. I have even pounded on the pulpit a time or two. So what.
When Jesus cleansed the Temple he didn't yell. The Scriptures make that plain. Yelling carries the connotation of losing self-control. What happens when you (or someone) yells at their wife? They do so out of anger. They yell at their children or wife either because they are angry or out of frustration. That is the natural carnal response--to yell, when frustrated or angry.
When Jesus cleansed the Temple it is noted that He did so as one who spoke with authority. Note that he spoke. He had authority in his voice, and it wasn't because of yelling. Some of the most effective mothers who have the greatest authority in their homes can carry out orders in almost a whisper. No yelling. But a soft quiet voice, but still an authoritative voice. The authority comes out of respect--respect for the knowled of who the person is, and the "rank" the person holds. The mother is the head of the household (when the father is not there), and a parental authority at all times. Christ had the authority of the Messiah. He didn't have to yell. He spoke with authority.
DHK

 

You've clearly never sat near me during a baseball game </font>[/QUOTE]I have been to a baseball game; and I never heard any joyful noises to the Lord. But I did hear some who had drunk too much beer make a lot of unnessary noise. It wasn't too pleasant to hear either.

 

You should stay away from Dodgers or Yankees games and hit up an Angels or Padres game. The crowd there is much more family friendly.

 

That would be nice John; but do you know where I live? I cannot afford such luxuries.

 

DHK, I dunno where exactly you live, I'm still hoping for Calgary to get a baseball franchise. I'd be all in favor of that.