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Travelsong
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Is that the one with the guy who actually made the documentary himself to show how he could rip everyone off and get rich?
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This argument is over-used, and ineffective. There is no class of "yelling and screaming" preachers. That is a made up stereo type, that is wrong. It is more fiction than fact. You might find a few people like that more among Charismatic circles than Baptist circles.Originally posted by Eric B:
And once again, many of the preachers from the old-time Church also yelled and screamed at the congregations. This is often looked up to by those condemning everything modern. They did it all right back then, and we were wrong to "soften" up.
That's the one.Originally posted by Travelsong:
Is that the one with the guy who actually made the documentary himself to show how he could rip everyone off and get rich?
I think those crazy antics are all out of wack myself. Ever see the documentary, "Marjo"? About a Pentecostal traveling evangelist, Marjo Gortner, who was a fraud? In one segment there is footage of him all over the stage with the microphone while his voice-over is saying that if he could have had his choice, he would have been a rock star. If one had imagined a rock band behind him during his antics, the parallel would be uncanny.
It has been pointed out that both the old-time fundamentalist preachers, as well as the charismatics (old and new) as well as modern Church (with its CCM, emotionalism, market strategies, etc) all stem from turn-of the century revivalism, which in turn was heavily influenced by PT Barnum and others from the world. Today, the old-liners and new liners argue over whose styles and methods are "copied from the world", but thay have all been influenced to a certain extent. In the black church, old-line fundamentalism and charismaticism overlapped more, and this is where a lot of the people's memories of "the old hollerin' hellfire preachers" comes from. And I'm sure white charismaticism was more conservative in the past as well. It was the charismatics who were the most infamous for condemning rock and jazz (and all "worldly entertainment", in fact!). Now, they are the ones blamed for its inroads into the modern church! Still, when conservatives lament how modern preachers "no longer preach hell" (which is not really true; they just don't scream or use it to scare people anymore), it seems like they would like us to go back to the screaming fearmongers. I have never seen people who hold your views disclaim the old yelling like that before. People have gone on to blame 9-11 and other tragedies, as well as the "downfall of society" on preachers softening on hell, as if fear of hell is what properly saves people. In fact, when Robertson or Falwell blame "humanism", some people, like BJIII, and other 'separatist' types, and especially the KJVO mvment step in and say "No; it's YOUR fault for compromising, and you should be preaching hell and come out and be ye separate, instead of preaching politics".This argument is over-used, and ineffective. There is no class of "yelling and screaming" preachers. That is a made up stereo type, that is wrong. It is more fiction than fact. You might find a few people like that more among Charismatic circles than Baptist circles.
You sometimes find people imitating others. Not everyone is a "Jack Hyles," but there are plenty of young men who try to imitate him, instead of just trying to be the man that God made him to be. Every one is different. Very few preachers actually yell. And I don't know any that scream. Screaming is wrong. A girl would scream if she was being attacke or raped. A pastor or evangelist doesn't scream. I don't know where you are getting that from.
So what happened is that he is the one who really popularized fearmongering with hellfire, but in a deep somber scary voice. Then, all that was missing was those later revivalists with the motional fervor and screaming, and then, voila! your screaming hellfire preacher.Some of the greatest preachers in the past didn't have much "variety" in their preaching at all.
It is said that when Jonathan Edwards preached his famous "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," which brought about revival, that he read his entire manuscript by the dim light of a lamp. He had a monotone voice, which under normal circumstances would be difficult to listen to. What made the difference. Edwards had prayed all night long beseeching God for the power of the Holy Spirit to rest upon him.
You can't call down the Holy Spirit by yelling and screaming either at God or your congregation!
People on your side still seem to be that angry at what others in the world and Church do. Whether you yell or not, it's in people's hearts.So we are talking about what is right, according to Scripture, not what people do. Just because people screamed in the past didin't make it right.
No, I don't think you understood everything I said in my post.Originally posted by Eric B:
So what happened is that he is the one who really popularized fearmongering with hellfire, but in a deep somber scary voice. Then, all that was missing was those later revivalists with the motional fervor and screaming, and then, voila! your screaming hellfire preacher.
Rather than creating a real revival with any amount of spiritual depth (Matt.13:5,6), these tactics just shackled people with fear, but eventually, people got tired of it, and hence, the revolt against the Church culminating with the last half-century. Especially when abuses became more obvious (pastors enriching themselves through the fear tactics; them often getting caught in sins themselves right after pronouncing others to hell; people using God to deny others rights and freedoms, and just the coldness and meanspiritedness that characterized old-time religion). We hold the past up as so "godly" based on the supposed effect of the preaching; compared to today (and this extends to the music), and blame all these "secularists" without, and "compromizers" within; but the old tactics were based on fear, not love (1 John 4:18)
One person's "yell" is another person's attempt to make a joyful "shout" to the Lord. Many classical pieces end in loud cocophanous strains, som of them considered by critics of the day as "yelling" or "shouting". Mozart and Bach were often criticized for this.Originally posted by DHK:
Yelling is obviously a form of communication, but it is the wrong form of communication. I don't yell at God, and he doesn't yell at me. Why should one do the same in music?
"Greater or lesser." Seems like a pretty open statement to me.Originally posted by Daniel:
OK, Aaron, thank you for clarifying what you meant by perversion .
OK, here's my original definition:
"The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition using the greater or lesser combination of melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre."
Now, start with me and show how these is an open/liberal interpretation possibility using this definition as the starting point.
One person's "yell" is another person's attempt to make a joyful "shout" to the Lord. Many classical pieces end in loud cocophanous strains, som of them considered by critics of the day as "yelling" or "shouting". Mozart and Bach were often criticized for this. </font>[/QUOTE]Then you have the wrong definition of "yell."Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Yelling is obviously a form of communication, but it is the wrong form of communication. I don't yell at God, and he doesn't yell at me. Why should one do the same in music?
You've clearly never sat near me during a baseball gameOriginally posted by DHK:
Yelling isn't a joyful noise.
I went to BJU and graduated from there. I heard Bob Jones III many times. Sure he preached on Hell; but he didn't yell. Speaking loudly and affirmatively isn't yelling. I do that too. I have even pounded on the pulpit a time or two. So what.Originally posted by Eric B:
I have never seen people who hold your views disclaim the old yelling like that before. People have gone on to blame 9-11 and other tragedies, as well as the "downfall of society" on preachers softening on hell, as if fear of hell is what properly saves people. In fact, when Robertson or Falwell blame "humanism", some people, like BJIII, and other 'separatist' types, and especially the KJVO mvment step in and say "No; it's YOUR fault for compromising, and you should be preaching hell and come out and be ye separate, instead of preaching politics".
You've clearly never sat near me during a baseball gameOriginally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Yelling isn't a joyful noise.
That would be nice John; but do you know where I live? I cannot afford such luxuries.Originally posted by Johnv:
You should stay away from Dodgers or Yankees games and hit up an Angels or Padres game. The crowd there is much more family friendly.