Apologetix?

I don't see how any legitimate definition of worship can include secular songs. In fact, it wouldn't include many Christian songs.

By the message it communicates through it form.

There was nothing to forgive since there was no arrogance involved.

This discussion would take far more time and space than can be given to it here. You can read any number of authors such as Bernstein, Copland, and Bloom, and others. About the only place you won't find this information is among those dedicated to CCM.

Beethoven's "very secular melody" isn't. That was and is a solid melody that communicates nothing evil. It is not "unrighteous" art for that reason.

With a lot of music the discussion certainly can be about appropriateness. And on that, I would take a far different stand.

That is simply not true. A C Major chord in and of itself carries no real meaning. But a C Minor chord certanly communicates something compared to it. Beats certainly communicate things. About that there can be no debate.

With some music, yes, it is cultural context. But not with all.

 

I don't see how any legitimate definition of worship can include secular songs. In fact, it wouldn't include many Christian songs. [/qb]

 

What is an ungodly passion or emotion? How does a particular chord equal sin? How does a beat equal sin? How come old worship music that has been set to old secular music NOT fall into the same attack of personal idea? If you respond to this, please answer the questions .

 

Okay, once again: How does music do this?

How many different ways can you make the same assertion without supporting it? The question you should be answering here is "How?"

No, that is only part of it.

What is the other part?

To properly reflect truth, we have to say so. When Paul says to approve things that are good, he is talking about the things themselves, not simply the responses or motives of the heart. It is true that the heart is involved in evil. It is too limiting to say that only the heart is involved.

In context we note that every commandment points to an action of the heart.

What bad "thing" exists that isn't an action of the heart?

 

One has yet to make an objective scripture case supporting the idea that a given musical genre is "objectively wrong".

Therein lies your onw hypicrisy. You won't condemn "O Sacred Head Now Wounded", but will condemn a contemporary example. And then you attempt to rationalize it with nonexistent scriptural implications. Sorry, but that dog won't hunt.

While objectively true of just about everything in our lives, the application of that is based on subjectivity at best.

Then you would condemn any wedding that uses the wedding march, trumpet voluntary, etc??? I presume you would also ban the use of any classical and baroque music during worship.

 

My question exactly.
Tim

 

Good point Johnv. Couldn't have said it better myself. Really!

Tim

 

Somewhat lost in your quotes here, but will comment quickly for the sake of time.

</font>[/QUOTE]Examples of what? "Christian songs" that aren't worship? I don't have anytyhing that comes to mind at the moment. I was making a general comment aobut some of the completely frivolous songs I have heard. But I don't spend all day thinknig about this topic so I can't call them.

</font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't ask you ... Seriously, there was nothing in the least arrogant about it.

It has been a while since I have studied this and read the books, so I can't recall right off without looking them up.

Yes, but it was good music, which is the issue. Good music may accompany bad lyrics. The music is still good. Bad music may accompany good lyrics. The music is still bad.

The issue of major and minor is not good vs. bad, but clear proof that music communicates without words.

I am not that familiar with African culture.

16+ years of lessons in classical piano, sacred piano, trombone, as well as playing guitar (electric and acoustic), all brass instruments; 10 years of leading worship including choral directing. I have studied music theory in the process; less music history.

I am pressed for time and not able to continue here. I did not intend to get this deeply in it. I have learned the fruitlessness of these conversations. What is really funny is that I am not that conservative in my music. I simply end sounding like it here for pointing out that music has meaning instrinsically.

 

Passion or emotion that is not driven by biblical values and pleasing to God. Things like lust, unrighteous anger, tension, expression of ungodly themes, etc. Have you really not thought about that?

I don't recall anyone saying it did. Do you?

I don't recall anyone saying a beat equaled sin. Where are you coming up with this at? What is sinful is the collection of beats, notes, and chords in an ungodly way. Again, read Makujina for starters.

Because the issue is the quality of the music, or the rightness of the music, not the age of it. Old music that is bad music is still bad music. New music that is good music is still good music. You are confusing the issues here.

 

That case has been made many times. Perhaps you have not been exposed to it.

What? Why should I condemn good music in order to condemn stealing from the the world? The point of a parody is that it takes a well known song and steals the melody, sound, and rhythm and uses different words. I personally am a big fan of parodies. I love some of hte stuff on Twistedtunes.com. But I find it highly inappropriate for the message of God or worship of God. "O Sacred Head Now Wounded" has never been confused with a parody ... not now, and certaily not then.

Where? I don't recall doing anything with nonexistent scriptural implications.

Try telling your wife that her objection to your use of pornography is subjective. Try telling God that your adultery is subjective.

Why would I? Weddings are weddings, not a worship service.

Yes, I wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't do it. I can't find any reason for it. There is classical and baroque music that is sacred in nature and therefore acceptable. I assume you are referring to secular classical and baroque. I personally enjoy it, but don't see the appropriateness of it in church.

 

I have reviewed your posts, and the posts of others, numerous times. No where have you or anyone made an objective scripture case supporting the idea that a given musical genre is "objectively wrong"... "O Sacred Head Now Wounded" has never been confused with a parody ... not now, and certaily not then.
"O Sacred Head Now Wounded" is the tune of secular love song that was given updated religious-themed lyrics. That's exactly what Apopogetix does, and you condemn it. It's sad that you cannot see your own double-standard which is so plainly apparant.

So when an established hymn, like "O Sacred Head Now Wounded" steals from the world, then it's okay, but for everyone else, it's not okay? That's not scriptural objectivity. That's subjective hypcrocrisy plain and simple.

pornography and adultery are clear violations of scripture and spelled out thus. You have completely failed to show any scriptural inference that sacred text set to secular tunes is a scriptural violation. You have additionally failed to show any scriptural inference that the genre of Contemporary Christian Music is a scriptural violation.

Weddings are not a worship service? Since when?

Based on what objective litmus test do you differentiate between sacred classical and secular classical?

 

The biggest book in the Bible is a hymnal of praise. Music is a method of praising God. Now explain how praise can be evil? If it is true praise, it can't be evil.

Pharasees are judging music as "evil" today based on the beat, the instrument, the style, etc... when they should be judging it based on whether or not it is praise.

Psalms 150 (KJV1611)
Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his Sanctuarie: Praise him in the firmament of his power. Praise him for his mightie actes: Praise him according to his excellent greatnesse. Praise him with the sound of the Trumpet: Prayse him with the Psalterie and Harpe. Praise him with the timbrell and dance: praise him with stringed instruments, and Organes. Praise him vpon the loud cymbals: praise him vpon the high sounding cymbals. Let euery thing that hath breath, praise the Lord. Praise yee the Lord.

Let everything that hath breath, praise the Lord.

Psalms 148 goes beyond music and explains other things that praise God.

 

Passion or emotion that is not driven by biblical values and pleasing to God. Things like lust, unrighteous anger, tension, expression of ungodly themes, etc. Have you really not thought about that? </font>[/QUOTE]How does music communicate such things?

I don't recall anyone saying it did. Do you?</font>[/QUOTE]Well obviously at some component level you must say that. If you can say there are specific principles which govern explicit communication in music, then you must obviously be able to isolate which components are the evil ones. Yes? No? Why don't you just once come out and explain exactly how this is supposed to work instead of making the same claim over and over?

 

Pastor Larry,

After reviewing our posts to each other on this topic and the "What is Music" topic," I've come to the conclusion that we ae actually, basically in agreement on this subject. The diference comes in that we are not using the same terminology or definition of term.

Thanks for the spirited debate, it has helped me think.

Tim

 

This is the reason why I hardly ever visit the BaptistBoard any more.

At first I was thinking that this would be a good "Christian" place to communicate love and understanding for all but, once signed up and posting I have found that the "High dogs" like to put others down with there beliefs.

I'm not saying that this is in its entirety wrong. As Christians we are to correct each other but, in a loving way.
Most of the times it's in a, I'm right your wrong debate on here.

Down here in our human mind it is very hard to have all understanding. The way that we all walk is very different in the way someone else walks. The phrase “one size fits all” just does not apply. You may have a completely different view of the same scripture that someone else has. And… That is perfectly normal. God shows each one of us different things at different times.

Moving on to Music verses Lyrics debate.
If it was not from a local, now nationally known band, Disciple band I do not believe I would be a saved person today. I’m not putting all glory to them but I do believe they were there at the right time with me. A small part of my testimony…I grew up on southern gospel/hymnals. I rebelled as a youth (as we most all do). Started hanging out with the wrong crowd, started listening to country, and then southern rock and it progressed from there. I never really liked hard rock to which my likings went to rap/techno. So a friend begged for me to go to a concert with him to which I unwillingly went. After about the 5th song I started to get that urge. I think all that are Christians now what I am referring to. That night I rededicated my life back to Christ. If it was not the song, time and situation that I was in, at the right moment I truly believe I would still be the same if not worse at this very moment.

Now since then my music taste has changed, as it always has. I like bluegrass, country some rock, and southern gospel music, etc. I truly feel that “Music style” is the wrapping paper that covers the gift (lyrics). It is true that not all wrappers are the same, as all can agree, us, as humans are appealed to different wrappers. Some may be pretty but once opened they have nothing more than coal to show. Some may be brown paper as a wrapper but hold a gift so precious that you can help to NOT share.

My point is this; I’ve heard all kinds of pastors preach their sermons. I’ve heard the “hell fire and brimstone” the talking, the stuttering, and even the singing. They all have a wrapping paper that they all feel comfortable with. Most have acquired their wrapper from others that they have mostly been around during there youth. Not all of us like the same wrapper. But I don’t ever hear others bashing others on how their pastors preach.

No one truly knows how Jesus or John preached back in there days, we only know that it worked. The bible doesn’t come out and tell us how. But the bible does tell us to praise the Lord with different instruments and a loud voice. Some may take that at guitars and screaming/growling. It’s not for me but to someone that is sitting in a bar and hears and can understand… that person is less likely to be in a pew in the back of the church listening to a hymn.

I pray that my message touches someone heart. I pray that there are no hurt people that walk away from this board never to turn back to God.

In Christ

 

=I have never talked about a "given musical genre." I have specifically stayed away from that point to talk about the broader point of the communication of music. The fact is that a scriptural case can be made against sinful things. That is the point here.

First, your assertion is highly doubtful. IN more than 20 years of studying hte music issue, reading wideliy from both sides, I have never seen that assertion. Secondly, it is irrelevenat because the music in question is not currently a love song, which distinguishes it from Apologetix. Therefore, it is not being stolen from it current use. Third, it is simply good music. Apologetix may use some music that is good, but it associations render it inappropriate. I haven't even really discussed the rightness or wrongness of the music of Apologetix. I haven't heard them. YOu have confused two issues: 1) The inherent morality of music and 2) borrowing from the world to preach the message of God. These are two differnet issues.

As I pointed out, you are confusing the issues. Your charge of hypocrisy stems from you not making proper distinctions in what I am saying. I am not hypocritical in the least.

You won't find one Scripture verse that addresses pornography directly. You have to make the case from inference, which is exactly what you have to do with music. It is clearly there, you simply have to practice theology ... to have your senses trained to discern good and evil.

Yes I have. I have shown from 1 Cor and 2 Cor that use of the popular is inappropriate for the communicatino of the gospel.

I haven't really tried to. Remember, you are confusing issues.

They never have been. Weddings are about two people getting married. Aren't you the one that had a Star Trek wedding? Was that worship?

Several issues, including the intent of hte composer and the association of hte music. Handel's Messiah is clearly sacred; Bach's works are less clearly so, though understanding BAch's position on music renders his music sacred in many instances. Mozart was clearly not sacred. By and large, I enjoy all of these, but would not use them in worship.

Remember, I am no die hard conservative in music. But to fail to acknowledge that music is moral is a key failure of theology and music philosophy.

And now I have been saying too much ... I gotta get out of here. I have real issues to deal with ...

 

Speech is also a method of praising God, but speech can be evil. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all music is praise, or that all music that claims to be praise is actually praise.

All of those things can be a component of whether or not it is praise. Your statement is like saying that people are judging the preaching by the words, the theology, the text when they should be judging it by whether or not it is preaching. That makes no sense.

 

You don't have to draw inferences from Scripture to know that pornography is sinful. Pornography is just another label for lust and fornication. There's no great stretch of the imagination.

Now with music, you are correct. You make obscure, ambiguous inferences. No one knows what they mean and they always raise twenty more questions for every question they attempt to answer.

 

Sure speech can be evil, but you are really speaking of communicating evil thoughts and intents. This is a sin which exists only in the heart. You can't say the audible signals we call language are in and of themselves sinful. All they can do is act as a medium to convey thoughts, intents, desires and emotions.

 

I'll give you that, and certainly undrestand the fortitousness of refraining from discussion of the more generalized genre topic.

No one argues the concept that a scriptural case can be made against sinful things. What is at issue here is the existence of a sinful thing. It is notably absent.

As a person with a minor in sacred music, I can tell you with authoritative certainty that the hymn "O Sacred Head Now Wounded" took its tune from is a love song called " Are All My Feelings". It is historical fact. Many hymns today have secular origins.

It was still known to be a love song when the hymn was penned. Many of the classic hymns we enjoy had, and some still have, secular usage. If your assertion holds any water whatsoever, then you would at the very least have to condemn the use of these hymns during the time their secular usage was popularly known. Additionally, you have no choice but to acknowlege that, by your own set tandard, Apologetix tunes will cease to be sinful when the secular popularity of the tunes dies out.

By your own subjective standards alone. Not by any scriptural objectivity.

I have done no such thing. I have claimed correctly that a tune (sans lyrics) is in and of itself amoral. As far as borrowing from the world ot preach the message of God, I have abundantly established that this has been regularly done with acceptance with regards to many of our currently established hymns, thus nullifying your case against doing so.

Any person who looks at another lustfully has committed the sin of adultery. Pornography fits the category of lust and fornication without any inference at all, though one is welcome to use inference to draw the same conclusion if one wishes. In the case of the topic at hand, there is no scriptural inference that can be objectively applied.

An inference that falls flat on its face when one recognizes the fact that several of our own classic hymns share secular tunes that were popular in their day. So, in order to be consistent, you must judge those hymns as well, at least to their use when the secular tune was popular.

Yes, our wedding ceremony was absolutely worship. The officiant lead us in prayer, shared the gospel with our guests, read scripture, and joined us in the Godly union that is the marital covenant. The fact that it was on the Enterprise-D bridge (which was absolutely cool and unforgettable) did not diminish from the worship exsperience at all.

Use of music can be moral, immoral, or amoral. Emphasis on use of.