The Baptist Split Of 1832

Brother Glen,
This is a link to the site for Landmark Baptists. I get a weekly message from them and covers a great deal of history of Baptists...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandmarkSouthernBaptist

I also get the regular church bulletin from Bryan Station Baptist Church in Kentucky. One of my old professors was from Kentucky. This bulletin offers many reprints, including the Trail of Blood ($1.50 US). The site is: http://www.bryanstation.com.

They also offer reprints of Dr.C.D. COle's lectures..Definition of Doctrine (volumes 1, 2 and 3); Doctrine of Election and his Lectures in Biblical Theology: New Testament. Great reads.

There were always divisions among Baptists in England, starting with Arminianism vs Calvinism.later Open and closed communion and a few other doctrines, including eschatology, since many Baptist churches were formed out of the Plymouth Brethren and Dispensationalism.....then, of course, there was the liberal-conservative split.

In Canada, our first split was in 1925. It had to do with liberalism. The next split came in 1953, which was over personalities and not doctrine. Since that time, different Baptist groups have entered into Canada and opened churches, including the Southern Baptist and a good old KJVO group.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Beleive this or not Bro. Glen,

I was just going to post this sort of topic, ya beat me to it, that's ok, I am going to enjoy reading from these posts.

Bro. Jim, I use to receive the group e-mails from the Landmarker site (from J.R. Graves I believe), my e-mail has changed and I was wondering how to start receiving it again, perhaps I can find out from your site.

Thanks for the refrence to Bryans Station. I have a copy from them of the Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll, and am reading it again, if I notice anything in it concerning the period in question, I'll post it.

I was going to say that I am not certain about Fuller, I have not read much on him, but Carey is different. I researched him last semester for a Senior Seminar History Course and from memory I wondered if he fit the mold of pursuing missions by any means.

Then I remembered his sermon which launched the missions movements. I wonder though if he intended this to be as it has happened, or if his beliefs weren't taken and added to.

From the things he underwent while in India I think perhaps the modern missionary (speaking generically here brethren), is not a product of his doing.

Thanks also Squire for your addition.

I am reading "Baptists in All Ages" now and have already found Hassell's work to begin reading it.

I don't expect to reconcile the differences, but I am interested in the causes, nature and depth of these.

[Edited to correct spelling error.]

God Bless All.
Bro. Dallas

[ February 24, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

Brother Dallas,
Try this :LandmarkSouthernBaptist@yahoogroups.com

The name on my list is Ben Stratton.

Dr. C.D. Cole was one of my professors,,a fewwww years ago...he was connected with the Landmarkers and especially to the pastor at Bryan Station Baptist Church.....that is my connection with the site.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I think these things are very interesting. At least I am deeply interested in them. As I said above, I don't think I could resolve the issues, but I do want to understand them better.

Bro. Jim,

thanks for the info. Ben Stratton sometimes posts on the BB under JR Graves. He pastors I believe over in western Kentucky.

Looking forward to discussing this topic, even though I feel out of my league, I guess everybody has to start somewhere, huh? I love to study history and especially love the history of the Lord's church.

I started today downloading some of the works Bro. Glen mentioned onto disk. We are studying church history in Sunday School, using Carrol's Trail of Blood. I thought it would be interesteing to bring to the discussion some of these works from among the primitive brethren.

It is controversial though, I mentioned it to some older people and they just tell me the missionaries have the true doctrine. Then they also don't agree with alot of the modern means employed in missions.

At any rate, I feel it best for me to read for myself and see how the positions match up to Scripture. I think all could agree with this.

God Bless All.

Bro. Dallas

 

Don't know if this sheds more light or not.

The Church I now pastor, Providence Baptist Church of Callaway County, MO. was founded in 1826. In 1834, the church hosted the first organizational meeting of what later would become the Missouri Baptist Convention (SBC).

There was much debate during this entire period on missions and the Missions movement. Here is an excerpt from a paper I wrote on our Church's involvement in the Mo. Baptist Convention's beginnings.

The anti-missions controversy that grew to divisive proportions in the early 1800’s was in its early stages more about methods, control, pride and jealously than it ever was about doing or not doing missions. The early objections to mission societies and paid missionaries at least to John Taylor and others like him were so clear that Taylor recorded what many frontier Baptists felt.

First he thought that the agents and missionaries of the societies and convention put too much emphasis on gathering funds. He predicted that no amount would ever satisfy their demands. Secondly he saw the missions movement as the beginning of a Baptist aristocracy which would undermine the foundation of Baptist republican government. Thirdly, he did not approve of seminary trained ministers because they would of a necessity demand paid salaries from the churches they pastored. Based on his own experience with two missionaries who had stayed overnight in his home he had concluded, however wrongly, that the young crop of educated ministers were more interested in salaries than they were in preaching. And finally he was personally offended by missionary stories of privation and suffering because he himself had seen first hand privation and suffering among his Baptist brethren on the Virginia and Kentucky frontiers.

You can read the entire paper by clicking here and following the links to the History of our church: Providence Baptist Church Web Site

 

Thanks Hardsheller for that information.

I visited the site and printed the piece; couldn't copy it to my disk.

Do you know if John Taylor is the same who started Baptist Faith Missions?

I went to their site at www.baptistfaithmissions.org

It is still loading, takes a while, they have added a lot of things since I was last on the site. The history section tells of the founding of this society and the original purpose etc.

My family visited your state during the summer of 2001 (July), we went to Kirkland?? MO for a mission conference at Faith Baptist.

On our return home we visited the museum in Columbia where we got a good look at the rich heritage of the state and area.

Though this pertained to my calling, it also constituted the only vacation my wife and our children have ever been on together. We had a great time and the Lord blessed us.

Again thanks for the added information.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

The following is an excerpt from BFM's History link:

The First Baptist Church of Murray, Kentucky established the Amazon Valley Baptist Faith Missions for the purpose of evangelizing the unreached regions of tropical Brazil. It was a work based on FAITH from the beginning. Joseph F. Brandon began working in western Brazil in 1923. In 1941, the church that was raising his support ceased doing so.[/ B]

The question about John Taylor??? I don't know where this came from unless my mind was associating the Taylor name to Hudson Taylor, why I don't know.

Nevertheless, Brandon, as listed above is the first 'missionary' from what is now BFM. He was working in Brazil in 1923 and as you see from my italics, the church supporting him withdrew that.

I don't know if the article explains why or not, but it would be helpful to know further. Nonetheless, he returned to the states and must have felt his work was not finished in Brazil.

I know this does not directly pertain to the split of 1832, wouldn't it serve to show us some of the direction, or result of that split?

I will further trace this and let you fellas know if I find anything.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Following is the depth of the article mentioned in my last post:

I will withold comment for the moment, except to say, this does not go as deep into the issue as I had hoped. Though I believe the fissure is by this time wide enough to be self-evident even from this distance.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Keith, was that split over modernism? This is the same time period that modernism reared its ugly head and brought about many splits.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I assumed any 'split' resulting from this time period and the results. If this is incorrect or too broad let me know.

In regards to Hardshellers article posted above:

I consider myself to have always been a Baptist, brethren. However, I was raised in various denominations. Since adulthood I first attended a UMC where my wife went with her family and where we were married, by a Baptist preacher, of course. During my time here I had the opportunity to teach a Sunday school class. To my dismay the literature rarely discussed scripture, but would bring in various life examples of 'spiritual truths' without ever addressing the fact of being lost, the question was focused on what would Jesus do?, but never on Telling what Jesus Did. When I diverted from this course I was removed from the position as teacher. When I did discover a place where my own convictions were also held and joined and announced my call to preach, some of the congregation, with good intentions I believe, took it upon themselves to council me. They emphasized the fact that preaching in the style mentioned above was man making his own pulpit. Since, I have learned better, but doubtless to say, this hindered my ministry for some time as it produced in me a standard which was imposed upon me by men and not by God.

Also, since this time I have known some who were most ferocious in their insistence that we not partake of this method, who have embarked on questionable methods.

It is for this reason my interest has been developed toward this particular episode in our history.

Sorry for writing so much, but this is a real issue to me. I see many who clamor over themselves to make new members into their image only to later seem to reveal they are defining this image as they go along.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Bro. Glen, You wrote:

Yep that's me. I'm 57 also.

My late uncle referred to himself as a Hardshell Baptist, so that's where the User Name came from. It also fits since I'm Calvinistic in my personal theology.

 

John Taylor is known for his Anti-missions stance in Kentucky during the early 1800's. His writings are extremely rare and valuable should you come across any of them.

He was a contemporary and a close personal friend of James Suggett who was the first permanent pastor of the church I now pastor.