The Baptist Split Of 1832

[Jeff Weaver]

Hardsheller

I do believe you understand. Finally a Southern Baptist who gets it.

Now you have to convince the rest of the SBC.

Jeff.

 

[Frogman]

Everything I read says the Seperate Baptists rejected the Philadelphia Confession of 1782. I assume this rejection was doctrinal, does anyone know anything?

Bro. Dallas

 

[rlvaughn]

There were some doctrinal differences between Separates and Regulars. But the main objection of the Separate Baptists to the Philadelphia Confession is to be found in their position of rejecting any creed (set of beliefs) other than the Bible.

[edited in an attempt to more effectively communicate what I meant to say, rlv]

[ March 01, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[Frogman]

Thanks brother Vaughn, I missed this in my reading, though it is made as plain as the nose on my face, which, come to think, I don't see that unless I look into a mirror. (reflection....).

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Brethren I have found the following thanks to this thread.

Green River Association of United Baptists

Formed from union of Regular and Separate Baptist congregations. 1828 at the time of this session Elder Cornelius Deweese withdrew because of his stand in favor of abolition. Campbellism is reported to cause 'great distress.' The confusion becomes so great that the association split in 1832/33.

They were nominally united in 1834; but 1835 saw division among some churches refusing to send delegates because of the association of some sister churches to Drake's Creek, though letters are sent to the association by the dissenting churches, no specific reasons are given.

During the 41st session in 1840 division erupts because of the sentiment toward missionary believers. This group of churches--Mt. Tabor, Mt. Olive, Bowling Green, Three Springs, Salem and Glasgow Baptist left the association and form the "Liberty Association of United Baptists."

From this association, directly from missionary efforts of Glasgow Baptist, Grider Memorial Baptist is established. (Grider is my local body). When we were formed we associated with the Liberty association. Later we separated from this association on doctrinal grounds (ordination of a woman deacon in an associational church, and later failure to 'discipline' a pastor of an associating church being divorced and remarried).

Currently we are "Independent" but there has been mention of forming an 'association' loosely among sister churches in the area.

Thanks for the thread, I have found a lot of history of my own church I did not know before.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[rlvaughn]

Dallas, you may already know, but the Green River Association of United Baptists still exists. The Green River churches do not affiliate with any larger body, such as the SBC, ABCUSA, etc., remain aloof from any gathering of Baptists broader than the local association, but do correspond with other bodies of like faith - some called United and some called Missionary.

 

[Frogman]

I knew the association still existed, the church I was saved at is a member of this association. I didn't know about the particulars though. I didn't know anything about associations when I was a member here. When I was there they seemed 'separate.' This church is Cane Valley Baptist, in north Adair County (Columbia) KY near to the Taylor County, Green County lines. When I was there I was between the ages of 11-16. The church had some internal problems and my parents quit going, so I did also.

The information I have concerning this church and the Green River Assoc. is from a pastor of a sister church of Grider in Adair County, the correctness I have not yet researched, but I have a line, a float and bait, so I guess it is time to go fishing.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Dallas

Do you know, if perchance, the Green River Association of Regular Baptists is still in existence?

Jeff.

 

[Frogman]

Bro. Jeff,

To my knowledge the Green River Association of United Baptists formed from an effort between members (former I suppose) of the Elkhorn Association which was regular, and I believe (5) separate baptist churches.

I am writing from memory. this information is in a book on the Green River Assoc. found at the Glasgow public library. Maybe Bro. Vaughn knows more. I will visit the library again next week and make a note of the association concerning dates, and other particulars.

If this is the same Green River Association then it was united, I am not aware of a GRA of regular baptists, but I will check further. If your question is pertaining to the united assoc. then they are still active.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Dallas

Thanks for the reply. No, not the United Baptist group. In the early 20th century there was a group of 5-6 churches that was organized in that general area from migrants from Ashe/Alleghany/Wilkes County, NC as part of the Union Baptist movement. (These folks used the name regular baptist on the records and church doors, but were internally known as Union Baptists). These folks corresponded with the other Union Baptist Associations that existed at the time, and was curious if they still existed. The correspondece ended in the 1920s. I have a few of their minutes somewhere from the period of correspondence. The Mountain Union associations in the mountains of NW NC/SW VA are (were in ca. 1915): Mountain Union, Blue Ridge, Primitive, Little River, Stony Fork, and Mitchell's River.

Jeff.

 

[Frogman]

Just a note concerning Grider Memorial.

The establishment of Grider resulted after Glasgow Baptist called a seminary trained man; and not the direct result of mission efforts as I earlier stated.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

I have I think three sources to quote so I have shortened them to, I hope make the point I believe I have gained from their pages.


First, regarding the Green River Association of Regular Baptists I cannot find any mention in the records available to me. This does not mean they do/did not exist, but only that I have yet to encounter them.

What I have found that I thought might remotely be related is the following:

"Of the first twenty five Baptist preachers that settled in Kentucky, twenty are known to have been Separate Baptists in Virginia and North Carolina; of the other five, only Joseph Barnett is known to have been a Regular Baptist. Yet, after they settled in Kentucky, eighteen of the twenty-five subscribed to the Philadelphia Confession of Faith, and identified themselves with the Regular Baptists. (Spencer, History of Kentucky Baptists , 107).

This was the second association formed in Kentucky and was formed on October 29, 1785, only 29 days after the Elkhorn Assoc. 'evidently had not heard of the existence' of the Elkhorn Association. There were four churches involved: 1. Severns Valley, constituted June 18, 1781 37 members, no pastor. 2. Cedar Creek, July 4, 1781 41 members, Joseph Barnett pastor. 3. Bear Grass, January, 1784, 19 members, John Whitaker, pastor. 4. Cox's Creek, constituted April 1785, 26 members, William Taylor, pastor.

This group proposed correspondence with the Philadelphia, Ketocton and the Monongahela Associations, without mentioning Elkhorn and assumed the name of Salem Assoc. of Regular Baptists and comprised all the Regular Baptist Churches west of Frankfort. (Spencer, 110)

The Green River Assoc. was formed in 1799, about eight churches in the Green River country. "A list of the churches which went into the organization is not on record, but it is known that the following churches were in the territory of the fraternity: Mud Camp, Mt. Tabor, and Sinking Creek in Barren County; Brush Creek and Pitmans Creek in Green County; Dripping Springs in Metcalfe County, which left the Salem Assoc. on account of the Slavery issue was a member of Green River until 1803, when it returned to the Salem Association." (Masters, A History of Baptists in Kentucky , 70).

I thought you may recognize some of these church names which I have been able to track down, not included, but also in the Assoc. was Mt. Tabor of Barren County, which is the oldest church in this county.

Here are their respective messengers:

Beaver Creek Mesgrs: Carter Tarrant, Jacob Locke, Henry Brynton, John Murphy

Brush Creek Mesgrs: Benjamin Linn, WM. Matthews, WM. McMurtry Johnston Crayham, James Goldsby

Pitman's and Robinson's Creek Mesgrs: Jonathan Cowherd, Abraham Harding Philip Crowder, John Chandler

Sinking Creek Mesgrs: Alexander Davidson Thomas Crawford, Daniel Green

Trammel's Creek Mesgrs: Elijah Summers Jonathan Lathan, Benjamin Balas, Charles Harper

Russll's Creek Mesgrs: John White, Henry Hatcher

Sinks of Beaver Creek (Dripping Springs) Mesgrs: Robert Stockton , Robert Smith, WM. Bishop
Barren Mesgrs: Richard Skaggs, Isaac Dale, Henry McGoe

Mill Creek Mesgrs: John Mulkey, John Wood, John Compton, T. Sullivan

(Robert Stocton is also mentioned in assisting in the formation of a "Strawberry Association, though I find no formal record of this it is mentioned in History of the Green River Association p. 11 the above list is in the same book on pg. 10).

I wondered if perhaps this association had also corresponded with Regular Baptists in Virginia or if perhaps you may have heard some of the names mentioned.

Sorry for the length.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Many, or rather, perhaps each of you know the following history:

just thought I'd post it in case others were interested:

http://iam.homewithgod.com/particularbaptistone/BRA/index.html

God Bless.
Bro Dallas

 

[tyndale1946]

I feel anyone who is a Primitive Baptist or is associated with them know of the Black Rock Address... Unfortunately for PBs this land over and elsewhere where PBs have gone... The validity of the Black Rock Address is not in question but the interpretation of those who composed it... Being a PB for 35 years that is my observation... Not Missions in general but their reason and purpose.

I might direct you all to a great article that was an answer to my post on Thoughts On Missions and Missionaires in the pb.org discussion forum.
You can find it at this website http://www.primitivebaptist.org/discussion/Default.htm THOUGHTS ON MISSIONS by Elder John Taylor Franklin County, (Ken.) 1820... It a rather lengthy article but I feel well worth the read... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

[Frogman]

Bro. Glen,

I took the liberty of bringing that article to the BB posted under "John Taylor on Missions"

Bro. Dallas

 

[Rhetorician]

Hey Gang,

I am a Southern Baptist "who gets it!" too. I was wondering if any of you are familiar with Dr. Tom Nettles who teaches Church History and Historical Theology at The Southern Baptist Theololgy in Louisville. Much of the talk seems to center in/about & around Kentucky.

My point: I would like to ask if anyone uses Tom Nettles writings such as "The Baptist and the Bible" etc. He is a "grace man." He is a prolific writer and knows Baptist History like the back of his hand. You need to acquaint yourself with him if you have not.

I have begun doing the research on a book project on John A. Broadus. He was one of the "founding four" of The Southern Baptist Seminary. He was a classicist, trained at The University of Virginia, "Prince of Preachers" in SBC life, rhetorician, theologian, scholar, seminary president, denominational leader, etc., et al. I am interested in him as a Rhetorician. That is what my graduate school education is. He will make a good book focus AND many of the "old hands" are being resurrected from the 19th century SBC life.

Just wanted to point all to Tom Nettles @ Southern.

sdg!

rd

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
Hey Gang,

I am a Southern Baptist "who gets it!" too. I was wondering if any of you are familiar with Dr. Tom Nettles who teaches Church History and Historical Theology at The Southern Baptist Theololgy in Louisville. Much of the talk seems to center in/about & around Kentucky.

My point: I would like to ask if anyone uses Tom Nettles writings such as "The Baptist and the Bible" etc. He is a "grace man." He is a prolific writer and knows Baptist History like the back of his hand. You need to acquaint yourself with him if you have not.

I have begun doing the research on a book project on John A. Broadus. He was one of the "founding four" of The Southern Baptist Seminary. He was a classicist, trained at The University of Virginia, "Prince of Preachers" in SBC life, rhetorician, theologian, scholar, seminary president, denominational leader, etc., et al. I am interested in him as a Rhetorician. That is what my graduate school education is. He will make a good book focus AND many of the "old hands" are being resurrected from the 19th century SBC life.

Just wanted to point all to Tom Nettles @ Southern.

sdg!

rd

Nettle's book By His Grace and for His Glory presents a history of the decline in the Doctrines of Grace among Southern Baptists over the last century beginning primarily with E. Y Mullins and L. R. Scarborough and a good summary of historic Baptist Doctrines of Grace. I highly recommend it.

The book was out of print for a wlile but I believe it is currently in publication.

Those interested in 19th century Southern Baptist Theology should get the Manual of Theology by John L. Dagg, the first book on theology by a Southern Baptist.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

I haven't visited this forum for a good while and just happened to be passing by and noticed this thread and thought I would add my two cents. I don't have time to read all the posts so if the things I say have already been said please pardon me.

The simplistic statement that is often made about the Hardshell/Missionary split is that the Hardshells didn't believe in doing missions and the Missionaries did. That is simply not the case.

The so called "missions movement" wasn't simply about preaching the gospel. It was about taxing the Baptist churches to fund centralized agencies for the purpose of conducting "missions". And "missions" didn't simply mean sending preachers to preach the gospel but included collegiate education, societies to fight social causes (slavery, temperance, etc), ecumenical Bible societies, book and tract publishing, benevolent institutions (hospitals and orphanages), etc.

If you want to know what the "missions" movement was all about aquire and read the "Memoirs of John Mason Peck" by Rufus Babcock. Peck was probably the chief advocate of the so called "missions" cause and the book sheds a lot of light on what the whole missions/anti-missions controversy was really about.

If the anti-missions were every thing their detractors accused them of being then they were certainly evil men. But if their only real distinction was in opposing the "missions movement" then they were most certainly in the right.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Squire Robertsson]

From what I am reading the split being refered to is one amoungst my southern brethren. I thought the split being discussed was the demise of the Triennial Convention. For a comtemporary Northern perspective, I refer you to Brother Wayland's book.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

The split referred to in this thread is that between what would later be termed the Missionary Baptists and Primitive Baptists.

The split, which had been developing for some 30 or so years prior to 1832, came to a head when several brethren gathered at the church in Black Rock, Maryland to discuss common ground amongst them, as well as declare what would not be tolerated amongst churches, ministers, and brethren with whom they would fellowship.

The Missionary side would lead to the largest "off-shoot" of Baptists in America, while the Primitives, aside from a few very small sects, would remain, for the most part, Primitive Baptists.

I wouldn't say it's uncommon, but you usually don't see churches called Missionary Baptist churches nowadays, even though they were on the Missionary side of the split. Almost all of those which were on the Primitive side still refer to themselves as Primitive Baptist, even many that aren't anymore.

It amazes me how you can talk to someone about their ancestry and find out that many of them had parents or grandparents who were Primitive Baptist. I have always thought of asking "well, what happened to you?"

The churches were much more widespread than they are now. It's really a shame that we have dwindled so. Of course, our beliefs are not popular amongst many people since we believe that man is completely helpless in his sins.

Many people want to believe that they can help God in saving themselves, after all, that is man's nature to think that way. Many people have difficulty believing that we are in such a lowly state.

We, as men, have such a high opinion of ourselves, do we not?

Maybe that's why God has allowed so many of His children to stray from the truth. It really makes me sad. I just pray that He will always allow me to have that hope inside me that I treasure so much.