Old Regular Baptist

The Indian Bottom Association website must have just been down temporarily, because it's back up now. It is a great site!

Zane

 

The site is down again. If you know the webmaster, and they'd like a little more stable host for their site have them email me. We have a very tiny mom-and-pop ISP (it sits in my basement), and I'd be more than happy to host it for them

 

Actually I think I may have figured out part of the problem with the Old Regular Baptist web site. The URL is
http://oldregularbaptist.com

Susan

 

Susan:

You're right. I didn't think of that! I wonder why they changed? Anyway, it's good to know it's still up.

David

 

Wow, I haven't found anyone who knew about the Old Regular Baptist. My grandfather was an Old Regular Baptist preacher in W.V. His name was Nelson Lester. He was a member of Mary Lou Church. He lived in the Welch, Coalwood, Iaeger, area of West Virginia. I use to love listening to his stories about how he was a circuit preacher in Kentucky, Virginia and West Virginia. I think he was a part of the Friendship Association. Has anyone ever heard of him? My Dad was ordained an Old Regular Baptist preacher, too.

My grandpa went home to be with Jesus in July of 1978.

 

Bro. Mike, have you talked over these things with your pastor?

If you are having doubts about the Primitive Baptist doctrine, perhaps I could assist?

What type of Primitive church do you belong to?

Old Line, Progressive, Absolute Predestinarian, etc?

I have not been to a Primitive Baptist church that did not teach modesty in all forms.

What doctrines are you differing on with Primitive beliefs?

I would love to be able to help if I may.

Bro. James

PS I don't want you to think that I am interested solely to keep you in the PB church, but since I am one and since I know what we believe I think I might be able to assist you in finding a church or order that would be the closest suit your beliefs.

I pray that God will guide with His loving hand.

 

I have heard my dad talk about the Mary Lou Church. He was a member of the Bethel Baptist Church and later the Bold Camp Church, both in the Union Association. My uncle was moderator of the Union Association when he died in 1957.

 

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
Bro. Mike, have you talked over these things with your pastor?

If you are having doubts about the Primitive Baptist doctrine, perhaps I could assist?

What type of Primitive church do you belong to?

Old Line, Progressive, Absolute Predestinarian, etc?

I have not been to a Primitive Baptist church that did not teach modesty in all forms.

What doctrines are you differing on with Primitive beliefs?

I would love to be able to help if I may.

Bro. James

PS I don't want you to think that I am interested solely to keep you in the PB church, but since I am one and since I know what we believe I think I might be able to assist you in finding a church or order that would be the closest suit your beliefs.

I pray that God will guide with His loving hand.

Bro. James,

In response to your questions, I will answer them in order. But before answering, I want you to know that I appreciate your help, and that I am relying on the Lord to guide me through this.

Our church considers itself old-line, and I do not believe I am having doubts about primitive baptist doctrine. However, if you consider the description given by Bro. Slone that indicates distinctions between primitive and old regular baptist, I would say that my beliefs are identical to what he described as old regular baptist. My church, as well as all of the churches I have visited in our association, do not practice what I have been taught and believe is biblical modesty. I have not talked about this with either of the 2 men that pastored our church because the first was terminally ill when I joined, then he died; and, shortly after the second was ordained, there began a division in the association that overshadowed my concerns about modesty. I did feel led to express my beliefs to another pastor in our association, and he said that his father, who also was a PB pastor, believed and taught biblical modesty. However, he did not give any indication that he either believed, practiced or taught it himself.

Well, I hope I have answered your questions adequately.

Thanks again for your interest.

Bro. Mike Orloff

 

I will post Bro. Slone's post below and give my thoughts on what PBs in our fellowship generally believe.

This is in stark contrast to Primitive doctrine. We believe that the truth or the gospel or salvation was and is never presented by God to the non-elect. If Christ had paid for their sins on the cross, in order that salvation may be presented unto them, even for them to refuse, they would not be able to refuse it because our salvation was not something that we can ask for nor turn down once presented to us. There is no need in presenting salvation to those who can not have it.

Amen! God does not send anyone to hell. The non-elect are going there because the fall of Adam swept over his entire seed. The non-elect will be judged according to their works, but all of the good works in the world could not help because even the one sin from Adam is enough to convict us. Christ had to die for us in order for us to be saved. If he didn't, then we are not and can not be.

The non-elect were not "sent" to hell, but were left in the state they created in their fall in Adam. When someone goes to hell, it is because they are despised by God and He chose not pick them up out of that pit.

Only God's children are predestinated.

I agree with everything he wrote in that statement.

Amen and amen!

Neither would we. Of course, they would also not be allowed into membership, so that would exclude them from communion anyway.

I disagree here. Although a woman should not shave her head, because it is her covering, the bible does not say she shouldn't cut it at all. That would give her massive headaches. You can ask my aunt about that. Hers used to be down between her rear end and knees.

Of course, you could also go the route that it doesn't matter because Christ's blood covers us.

I would not go for a female member wearing a lot of gawdy jewelry or "painting" herself to the point of looking like a harlot, but taken in moderation, jewelry and make-up are okay, and there is no biblical mandate against either. Does your wife wear a wedding ring?

I have yet to see a "pant suit" worn by a woman to church that I would dare say is for a man and then attempt to wear them myself.

The bible says nothing aside from dressing to look like the other sex.

Women pant suits are made for women. If men wear these pants they will be accused of looking like the other sex. We can not say neither sex can wear something simply based on this.

If they are made for women, then they are women's clothes. If they are made for men, then they are men's clothes.

The purpose of that bible passage was to discourage people from blatantly and purposefully attempting to look like the opposite sex. A woman in a pant suit is not.

I would think these are a given since the bible does say that it is a shame for a man to have long hair and to render unto Caesar what is Caesars. That covers the hair and the debts.

As far as dress, I would think it highly inappropriate for a man to wear shorts to church. Of course, there are always extenuating circumstances, so I can't condemn everyone who has ever worn shorts to church outright.

If someone always wore shorts and then asked for a home in the church, I would probably ask them if there is a reason that they always wear shorts. If they just don't want to wear pants, and will not submit to the churches desire for them to dress "appropriately", then that tells me they already have contempt for the church and we should not accept them as a member.

I do not agree with this statement at all. If called upon, I would gladly serve my country and I would have the endorsement of my church.

In the Mel Gibson film "The Patriot", the preacher says in one scene, when asked if he was going to fight the British with the Continental Army, "sometimes a shepherd must fight against the wolves in order to protect his sheep."

In order to worship according as we should, we must live in a country that will maintain our right to do so. In order to have that country, we must many times defend it from those seeking to destroy it and all of us with it. I would gladly fight and give my life in order to preserve that right for my fellow Christians.

Bro. Mike, I don't know if your church would agree with all that I have said, but this is the way those Primitive Baptists that I know feel about these situations presented.

If you are truly more in agreement with the ORBs than with the PBs on these issues, then I wish you the best of luck in finding a church to best suit your spiritual needs.

If your feeling is right, then God will indeed direct you.

I have never had to switch denominations, or even churches, and I hope I never have to, so I don't know how to give youany comfort about a possible transition, other than to say to trust in the Lord and where He is leading you.

You are in my prayers.

God bless.

Bro. James

PS I would like to know the name of youe church and/or association/pastor. Just wondering if I know of it/them. You can PM me if you don't mind telling me.

 

Bro. Orloff:

Just for reference, the closest ORB church to Rolla would be somewhere in eastern KY or IN. ORBs are located close to the epicenter, KY. This pretty much goes for United Baptists, too. So, you won't find ORB churches vastly spreading out like you do PBs.

I've come to the conclusion that ORBs and UBs are mainly Appalachian concepts with exceptions, of course.

The only ORBs I know west of the River are in AZ and WA. Bro Slone thought there was one called Kentucky church in Tamey(?), MO, but I have yet to find this place. I am interested in finding it, though.

David

P.S. - I was just in your area yesterday, coming back from a wedding in KS.

 

Thank you Bro. James for your comments. This discussion has given me something to think about. I would like to add my own comments to express my beliefs and feelings in relation to both you and Bro. Slone.

Bro. Slone wrote: "...the Old Regulars do vary with some Primitive Baptist on the non-elect,they believe that the Love of Truth or some manifestation of God is present before the non-elect and they recieve not the Love of truth,and they won't come to the light,and they don't believe in Christ so the Gospel has no effect on them but God is manifested for judgement purposes and this finds them the non-elect judged and guilty themselves for unbelief and they will have to say amen to their own condemnation.";

Bro. Reed wrote: "This is in stark contrast to Primitive doctrine. We believe that the truth or the gospel or salvation was and is never presented by God to the non-elect."

Consider the following scriptures along with Bro. Slone's comments: John Ch. 1, Ch 3, "in him was life, and the life was the light of men", "that was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world", "and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil...every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light"; and, Romans Ch 1, "for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen... even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful..."

Bro. Reed wrote: "If Christ had paid for their sins on the cross, in order that salvation may be presented unto them, even for them to refuse, they would not be able to refuse it because our salvation was not something that we can ask for nor turn down once presented to us. There is no need in presenting salvation to those who can not have it."

That, I believe, is correct. Christ carried the sins of God's people to the cross and death, and by rising from the dead, God testified that the sins of his people were put away, and they were freed from the demands of the law. It was by God's grace that He sent His Son to accomplish this for His people, and this hope in the finished work of Christ is what we confess, are baptized into, figuratively depict it as the cause of our one-time spiritual birth by a symbolic one-time water baptism, and figuratively depict it as an ongoing source of our spiritual nourishment by periodically taking the symbolic wine and bread in communion services.

Bro. James, if I were to give advice to a young Christian woman it would be: dress modestly, wear no make-up or jewelry, and let your hair grow long; the inner beauty God has given a woman, a meek and gentle spirit, is more beautiful than what the "world" is wearing; she will be respected and appreciated more that way than any other. I truly believe it.

As far as the Armed Forces and wars are concerned, I once felt the way you do. Now, I do not think I could point a gun at someone and kill them, even for the right to worship God freely. I suspect the Lord has changed my heart, and I do not think I can intentionally harm someone for any reason. If given enough time to think about it, nothing seems like it would be important enough for me to willfully cause harm to another person.

Well, God bless you for your help.

Bro. Mike Orloff

 

What about Scripture such as the following:

Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Acts 28:23-29
23. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

 

Who is to say those Jews were not children of God?

I know of many children of God who will not heed mens' words.

We see them on this board everyday.

If any of us have ever tried to fight against the conviction of the Spirit that God placed within us, say, before being baptized, or before submitting to the ministry, then we've done exactly what those Jews did.

Tell me, why would God present salvation to people knowing that they can not have it?

I agree with the principle, that the non-elect have sent themselves to hell based on their own sins and wickedness through the fall of Adam and their continued sins afterward, unbelief being one of those.

Romans 3:
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid:...

If everyone who ever did not believe was going to hell, then it would be overflowing with all of us Christians. I know of no one who has not experienced unbelief in their lives.

Thankfully, our destination is not determined by our belief.

If the gospel was presented to us, without the Spirit dwelling within us after regeneration, we would reject everytime too, just like a non-elect.

They can not be offered something they could not receive. They could not refuse something they were not offered. Therefore, because they could never receive salvation, it was never offered to them for them to refuse in the first place.

If we are to say that the non-elect had power to reject the offer of salvation, then we also have to say that they, as well as the elect, have the power to accept salvation. Once you state that, you are just like every other denomination out there. Then you are saying that man is somehow involved and we are in contol of determining our fate.

I just don't believe that and I don't know of any PB that does.

OR, I don't know if that is the position you are taking, but it sure looks like it to me.

If I have misunderstood or misrepresented you in any way, I apologize.

Bro. James

 

A whole lot of effort is expended by "theologians" at all levels on the subject of "free" will verses "fatalism". I'm convinced there are good arguments on various sides of the issue but I know there is a great deal we do not fully understand about God's design. The meaning of the Bible will always be the subject of discussion among Christians because it is not a neatly codified set of instructions that immediately answer every legalistic question posed by our challenging and rebellious nature. Rather, it is a collection of many different types of writings which must be taken in full context and in balance to its many parts.

I've, generally, come to accept the belief that most Primitive Baptists seem to hold on the issue but I can't say we are absolutely positively correct about it. I do have the Word of God to read but I am not God to read it. I do feel God called me out of my blind sinful nature through the Holy Sprit according to His will to "accept" the salvation Jesus had in mind for me before the beginning of time and which was secured by His personal sacrifice to reconcile me before the Father as a full pardon for the justly deserved punishment of my sins. I, honestly, don't believe I could have "rejected" knowing God when He did call me out although I certainly did, and still do, reject His desires through my conduct.

On the other hand, I feel I have a "free" will to some extent regarding what I do or don't do and am therefore fully responsible for all my actions. I don't believe God designed robotic fully preprogrammed creatures by His creation of mankind. I do make many choices and to what extent those are determined by my own will or by God's will or some combination I am not entirely sure. It's clear I can make the wrong choices! It is doubtful, from the perspective of personal experience, that I could have not "accepted" salvation yet the Bible does record the rejection of even our Lord even upon the direct witness of His marvelous and miraculous works that should have convinced anyone then present that He was exactly whom He claimed to be.

Reconciling these two points of view can sometimes be a challenge for the limited capacity of the human mind and the boundaries of space and time imposed upon us by God's creation. Our knowledge is limited by our knowledge! Ask me about these things when we get to heaven and, hopefully, then I'll know for sure who was right and was not. Among men I find holes in most arguments. I'm certain God's answer will be correct.

What I can say with much more certainty is that, whether or not man does or does not have some or complete "free" will to accept or reject salvation really doesn't make a difference in so far as what an individual should do with that salvation they have. If you are saved, then you are, and it matters not whether you had a "choice" in the matter or not. If you are not saved, likewise, you are not and what you do by your own power won't change it.

The key point is that creation, judgment, condemnation, sacrifice, redemption, pardon, salvation, rewards, and punishment all come from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It's all under His control one way or the other.

What does matter from the point of recognition of the salvation we are given is what we do from day to day here on earth thereafter. Convincing others of the one true God through good witness for His honor and glory seems to be the right thing to do. Christian brothers and sisters need help doing the right things for the right reasons more than they do a constant deluge of preaching about who is saved and whether or not they had any choice in the matter.

It is an interesting topic worth discussing and I have, in fact, added to it. However, if we become too consumed in the debate of which doctrine regarding "free" will or "fatalism" is perfectly correct we may well loose sight of or neglect the things to be done with the precious gift we've been given.

Patrick

 

The Bible does teach and Christ Did Speak to Unbelievers,non elect John 8:44 "Ye are of your Father the Devil" elect or non elect? 2Corth 4:3 and 4 are taling about non-elect which believe not,lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them.The Gospel was There they believe not in Christ because like Christ told them(non-elect)John 10:26"But ye believe not.because ye are not of my sheep,.."Was Christ Manifested Before Them?Also John15:2"if I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin;but now they have no cloak for their sin.Was this for judgement purposes?We belive they were already fallen in Adam or are they the (them) elect?Remember Christ died for the sheep and his sheep hear his voice and a stranger they will not follow.2 Thess2:10"and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;(Why do they perish)because they recieved not the love of truth,that they might be saved."How can you believe not in something that was never manifested how can you recieve not something that was never there?The non-elect will be judged by their works.The elect are saved by Christ's works his righteousness his life we believe because it was given us to believe this is a work of God.I don't believe Christ died to make a way or try to save the non-elect but those the Father gave him.I would rather believe the word of God than try to be a Good ORB or Primitive. I love both of these Churches and their people.Remember also that they are different groups among them and they. don't all see eye to eye.I post articles here more for educational purposes rather than debate so people will have a better understanding who we are and what we believe.A man convinced agains't his will is of the same opinion still.In Love Elder Slone

 

On war combat one might want to look at the teachings of Elder Gilbert Beebee a very well known Primitive Baptist who held the same princples that SGA of ORB holds today on this issue.

 

I was reading the posts on page 14 about Elder Rufus Perrigin and it got me thinkging. I went and looked on my bookcase and I have a copy of the Baptist History book that he co-authored. This book belonged to my Grandfather, Elder Nelson Lester, and when several years after he passed away my grandma gave the book to me. He is listed in the book under the Friendship Association as assistant moderater of Mt. Zion Church and set as presbytary at Mary Lue Church, (Bull Creek, W VA) I read this book and see the names of so many that my dad has talked about or that I have had the privilege to meet and hear preach. Just to name a few, H.A. Lane, Taylor Blankenship, George Hobson,
J. H. Belcher, Morgan Belcher etc..... It brings back wonderful memories.

 

Pil grim our closest church would be the Blessed Hope church in our association. If you ever decide to go let brother mike know and i will try to go down too and meet you aswell. I live in ohio but my dad is down there and i am sure we could get you a place to stay if interested in the trip over... Brother Jeremy