Old Regular Baptist

Well, I am asking with a scripture and I agree with you on the children and those incable of understanding. Of course I mean those of sound mind and have reached the age of accountability.

Genesis 3

"22": And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

My point is that all men in some fashion know God. Not as their Saviour but they in some way know Him, if they know good and evil.

Also, I am in a discussion now on prophesying and I believe preaching is prophesying. I also believe that sisters are able to prophesy but not preach, but preaching is prophesying. If a sister tell others of the second coming of Christ and He loves them, I think she has prophesied to them. what say you?

 

prophecy

Rev 19:10''.......................:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" I think sisters and brothers when shouting are in fact prophesying, preaching can also be prophesying as well but in a more restricted sense,[formal] with church authority, Sisters like Mary, Elizabeth did so, and our sisters may as well if the Spirit moves upon them, they should do so with their God given covering of uncut hair, otherwise they are praising God but dishonoring their head in the same act, this is why I feel it is also best that a man have his hair cut, before baptizing him, it much easier for him to do that than for a sister to let her hair grow, and I know that I have not been too popular, with some of the brethern on the other side because of these statements, we should know better than to hang pictures up that are supposed to be Christ doing something that is a shame for man.Bro.Slone

 

Yea, we had a great debate and reckoning over the pictures in the Sardis. The problem is your vast membership, have no idea who painted those paintings and what kind of a man he was even though most do not believe Jesus had hair that long. I am sure back then they wore it longer than we do today just for the reason of the difference in availibility of having it cut. I don't think you ever had to turn one around to see if it was a man or woman.
How you like the books? I thought maybe you could use them in your churches so I sent them. There is a funny story behind the black cover. Some churches in New Salem and Union told their members to only use the song books with black covers or the little "blue book". In the first place they don't know the history of the little blue book and that it was originally published by a freewill if I am not mistaken but I know that now a United publishes it. My book is only by me. But anyway I didn't hear about telling to sing out of black covered books when I went to black but later found out and Brother Hamilton out of Fla. laughed at the Union Association in front of me and said they can't beat old brother Scott here, they told them to sing out of black covered book and now his is black.
There are some songs I would not put in my book such as "Go rest high on the mountain" I felt it was too far out of line. I did put all the songs we sang around the home place when I was growing up such as "Hold fast to the right" that my mother sang all the time. I tried to put together a book you could take just one to a funeral home and be well supplied without carrying a whole bunch of books.

Thx for you answers, once again we agree. If we could get away from that God changing your heart before belief. I think we would be real close in scripture.

 

heart

Brother Bob , Now I have a question for you? In the parables about the sower, Matthew 13:3-23 note the good ground, also note the wicked one ,and catcheth away that which is sown in his heart, Now after reading that look at Mark the 4th Chapter note the good ground in verse 8, note Satan taking the seed away vs 15 note the seed in the good ground,did the seed make the ground good or was it good ground prior to the seed being sowed? Now look at Luke 8:5--15 The seed is the word of God now look at vs12 very carefully".............then cometh the devil,and taketh away the word out of their hearts,LEST THEY SHOULD BELIEVE AND BE SAVED. 15vs tells us that the good ground are they which in an honest and good heart,having heard the word,keep it,and bring forth fruit with patience. The bible tells us that the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:who can know it? It also tells us that it is hard,full of inquity,is a fountain of evil,blind,is proud,is malicious,stoney etc........How did this heart get to be good before the sower ever got there? Ground must be prepared before seed can be sowed" The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue,is from the Lord Prov 16:1] Who can say ,I have made my heart clean,I am pure from my sin? prov 20:9 Next question the wise man that built his house upon the rock, was he wise before he dug down or did building it on the rock make him wise? and if he was wise before he dug down, is not wisdom justified of all her children. The Holy Ghost goes before Christ, reproving John16:8 but all do not take reproof proverbs 29:1"He ,that being often reproved hardeneth his neck,shall suddendly be destroyed, and that without remedy" Bro.Mike

 

Black Song Books

I liked your songbooks and also realized the labor that you put forth, new songs have never been an issue with me, as long as the were sound in principle, some song are best used for home use,but ever now and then at a memorial service, I see no real harm in singing them if they have some kind of spiritualness to them. posed the above questions, just so you can get an idea where I am coming from, the word regenerate and its greek meanings would have ended the controversy years ago, but our brethern are not much on us using greek definitions, but if they would study it, things might have been different, but some of these splits or over preacher envy vs a real doctrinal matter. Bro.Mike

 

I agree on studying the Greek, but as you say it would not be well received but I study it all the time. I don't want to settle on something because it was handed down but I want the truth.

Here is answer for Matt:. I don't believe a man is saved while he is still committing adultery, etc

This is why I believe in "cleanse your hands ye sinner".

Good gound:
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, departing from evil is understanding.

If you don't ever fear God and going down to a devil's hell, you will never repent.

Matt:
15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16: But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17: For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

20: But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21: Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22: He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23: But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

This is my answer to Luke.

11: Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12: Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

(Devil is always trying to outdo God) These loved darkness rather than light.)

13: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(Head belief which couldn’t stand up to the pleasures of sin).

14: And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

(Same, loved darkness more than light).

15: But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

(As John Baptist said, bring forth fruit meet for repentance, In other words Fear God and depart from evil. As the Scripture says:

Isaiah, chapter 1
"16": Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

"17": Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

"18": Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.)

 

The wise man:

And there is no way this could be the church.



James, chapter 4



"1": From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

"2": Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

"3": Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

"4": Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

"5": Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

"6": But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

"7": Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

"8": Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

"9": Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

"10": Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

good ground

Christ told us what the good ground was, it was made ready, before the sower came, and so were our stubborn hearts our stoney hearts God prepared them, we were not of them that draw back unto perdition, the heart is made better, "........:for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better Ec 7:3,] What kind of adultrey was James refering? Do you believe he was speaking of natural ? A friendship with the world?Why use that language if you are speaking to the world? Why not say world you are enmity. I the first time I read this would have agreed with you, but after reading the Old Testament and the language God used with Israel, he called her a lot worse, but on the other hand brothers glean, from various scriptures while preaching try to paint a picture and make a point, and don't always stay with the legal meaning, there may have been some unsaved members among them, that I do not know, but see if you can find one commentary that states he is talking to the world, Arminian or Calvinist, I have read several and have not found it.{but we understand they are fallible men like you and I} So close and yet so far, In love Bro.Slone

 

No Mike, they are far from you and I. If the adultery was playing the harlot with other Gods. Israel was divorced for that reason. He that is a friend of the world as in James is an enemy of God. He was not talking to saved people. If it was in the church, He was talking to the lost that were there. In those days were a time of transition from the Law to the Grace and many filled the building but only a few were chosen that were worthy. The churches at that time had those who committed fornication with their father's wife and it also was a time when the church were made up of mostly Jews. There may have been a few Gentiles there but not many. They were mostly Jews who still wanted to follow the Law of Sacrifice and Circumcism. I think brethren fail to realize it was a time of "transition" and Paul and the others were trying to get those among them who were not following the Grace Covenant to do so. It is for sure there were many unsaved among all the churches in those days, I think even more so than today. What he really was trying to get them to do was cleanse their hands and repent! You couldn't be double minded and be saved for a double minded man is unstable in his ways. You couldn't have a unpurified heart and be saved for the saved have been given a heart of flesh and don't have the heart of stone anymore. Regardless of who he was talking to, he told them to do it. I cannot believe that saved people can play the role of the harlot, and these people were doing just that.

Isaiah, chapter 1
16: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17: Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


As far as the ground, there are plenty of scriptures of men ceasing from evil before being saved.

Please don't misunderstand, I believe the Spirit of God is there first, striving with man to do good and believe and to cease from evil and do good. I just believe he strives with all.

I write more later, the family is all here and we have trays set out and they are hollowing at me.

 

Spirit Frist

Spirit first, We both can agree. Regeneration is through the operation of the Holy Spirit, in regeneration there is two elements that are distinguished,generation or the begetting of the new life,and bearing or bringing forth by which the new life is brought forth.Generation implants the principle of new life in the soul, and the new birth causes this principle to begin to assert itself in action.This distinction is of great importance for a proper understanding of regeneration. [palingenesia] found in Matthew 19:28 and Titus3:5, and only in this last named passage does it refer to beginning of new life in the individual Christian the idea of this beginning of new life is more commonly expressed by the verb gennao[with anothen in John 3:3], or in compositum anagennao, these words mean to beget, to beget again or to bear or give birth John1:13;3:3,4,5,6,7,8;also IPeter 1:23;IJohn 2:29;3:9;4:7;5:1,4,18 in James 1:18 the word apokueo to bear or bring foth is used there are many more proofs but these all prove a Travail starting with a begetting and ending in a bearing or birth. Man can not while in a dead state cleanse his hands, this would be done by some one who has the principle of life, until a person believes through the working of God's mighty power, all his works are not reckoned of Grace but of debt "A newheart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. Ezek.xxxvi" now notice the I's anyone who has been through this operation has a good honest heart, and when the sower comes to sow the seed it will bring forth, Eternal life is a gift that is not earned, it brings with it all the means to bring us to birth, to produce faith where with we can be justified, to bring about repentence it works the will and do in us, that we can fear God and work righteousness, I see how that you are using those verse but the letter was addressed to the twelve tribes these addressed were called brethern, or spoke to as members of the body, I cannot debate if their were people in travail there are not, or if the unsaved were there with them, what I can say they were called brethern in the eleventh verse, I think he was rebuking carnal, disorderly Christians , I have seen some of these same behaviors in the Old Regular Baptist during association meetings ,I have also seen churches befriending the world and dressing like the world, I have seen doubleminded ministers and members and yes I have seen sinners, were none of these people saved? Some of them are serving as moderators of churches and associations , Are they truly the world? If so why are they not excluded at once and removed, you must admit you have seen brethern killed right in your midst and you have seen the world creep in your own association, you have seen fightings and wars, all to the shame of the cause, you yourself have been attacked and mistreated for taking stands on issues not popular with the majority, the behavior looks too close to the church for me to say James was speaking to alien sinners, but I can be wrong and have been wrong before, and admit when I am, I told you before as long as you don't preach it as man doing something with out God, I would disagree with your interpetation, but not with the principle of repentence you are trying to bring forth. In Christian Love Bro,Mike

 

Spirit first as you say, we agree. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit we also agree but only by believing first.

I will just say this, surely you believe that a man can quit adultery before being saved, quit laying out in bars, running with women, using God's name in vain, lying, stealing etc. Do you not believe a man can quit these things. Also, to believe. Don't you think a man can believe in the Spirit that is striving with him and decide to follow the good Spirit.
I have to laugh at some of the Calvinist. I told one yesterday on here my story of repentance on how I thought I would wait until I was an old man and then turn to the Lord but a heart attack give me a different mind. This person has been a strong Calvinist and him and I have went head to head for months but his response was, "did you feel as I did and wish you had of come quicker in life? Which goes against everything he stands for."

As you know, my belief is that a man must repent and believe. The Spirit is there always, but I am nothing special. I believe the Spirit strives with all men. I do not believe God will save a man while he is in the very act of adultery or in a drunken stuper, or while he is robbing a bank and that is where I get "cleanse your hands".

Though we do those things you speak of in our churches, I do not believe we are as they were in the book of James the ones being spoken about. I also do not believe people are saved who are worshipping idol Gods or committing fornication with their father's wife. He was talking to the twelve tribes of Israel that were scattered abroad, not just those in his presence that day. The twelve tribes of Israel are who Jesus sent the Apostles to first and said preach, repent ye, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Did they all repent? No, absolutely not but some did but in the book of James he was speaking to all the twelve tribes of Israel who were scattered abroad, again not just those in his presence, not just the remnant that receive Jesus when He come.

The book of James starts off not to the church but to the twelve tribes of Israel who were scattered abroad. (they were not there in front of him). I do not believe he was talking to the saved, I think he was trying to get them to repent and be saved. The church are "born again Christian", not the twelve tribes of Israel. Only a remnant of Israel.

You don't believe that the church is the twelve tribes of Israel do you, but it is the believers in Christ, regardless if they are Jews or Gentiles?

James 1
21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22: But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Anyway Mike, I understand how you believe and I agree that the difference is like I saw you post on here to some of the others and that is we put the belief at the beginning with the Spirit there also and you believe the regeneration by the Spirit comes before the faith if I got it right. blessings,

 

There are many who wonder who James was writing to, but seems apparent that it was to the scattered Jews trying to get them to repent and they being fellow Jews is why He called them brother, him being a Jew himself.

http://www.orange-street-church.org/text/missing-tribes.htm

 

James

The Jews calling each other brother has a historical base,and we both agree that he is speaking to the tweleve tribes, and we can agree that these scriptures are important to us gentiles also, and that it is okay to glean from them while preaching, if I understand you, you believe conversion and then regeneration, this wuold be the position held by John Calvin and Martin Luther or do you hold conversion and regeneration to be the same(I am not speaking of the law of God converting the soul) but of faith and repentence, which is how I would place it faith then repentence then belief in the gospel, there is not much dispute among this side, some hold that the hearing and belief are the same and life begins there, or that the hearing of faith or the voice received,is life . he went to his own and his own recieved him not but as many as did recieve him they were given the power or the spirit of life that would bring them to birth, My view is easy understood .I feel it is inconsistent with both scripture and reason to claim a person, while dead in sins and alienated from God would turn to him ,my own experience was much like Jer 31:18,19"Turn thou me and I shall be turned,.....after I was turned I repented" Whatever man may teach, God's word is true, and makes sense"After I was turned I repented" Acts 3:26 "Unto you first God having raised up his Son Jesus,to bless you,in turning away every one of you from his inquities."Look at the Sermon on the Mount " Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled{ note they are blessed already not going to be blessed but already blessed same as those that mourn not going to be blessed but already blessed and going to recieve comfort} If they are dead, how can they be blessed, these must have be quickened by God or begotten, they are in Travail and Zion is just about to bring forth and there will be no miscarriages in Zion. My chilren natural had life from the day they were begotten of me, they were not born to make them children or alive they were born because they were alive and already my child, my wife carried most of them near or nine months during what time, they were formed in her and developed every thing they needed to survie outside the womb."For we are his workmanship ,created in Christ Jesus unto good works...........''So we were created in Christ , not outside of him and then placed in him, and if you take the position that the sinner is being led by the Spirit or they not the sons of God Romans 8:14 "For as many are led by theSpirit of God, they are the sons of God." I hope this makes my position more clear to those of you that have been reading about Regular Baptist doctrine, I also would like to say brothers differing on these points should never have been the cause of the division, they are preached on both sides of the Old Regular's and I know of some brethern that think that I am a hardshell but they are in full fellowship with preaching brethern that go much farther in that direction then I do or anyone I know in the Bethel.I thought the doctrine of Actual Eternal Vital Union was dead on both sides of the old regular baptist and there is no movement that direction on either side to revive that debate, anyone interested can find a circular letter on that subject on page 198 History of Regular Baptist by Rufus Perrigan I do not believe that Brother Bob or myself will be debating that point, because neither one of us would endorse it, while there maybe one or two Regular Baptist preachers that believe it , there is not even one whole church that i know of believes it as presented back during the divide, it still among some of the Primitive side and you would be better off contacting them or the Primitive Baptist Library in Carthage Il, I believe Elder Robert Webb could help you out.As to the Old Line Primitive and the Old Regulars they both developed because of the same doctrinal disputes but they took some different routes, the Regulars were very much more tolerent of the preaching that Christ tasted death for every man, and seemed to abide by the agreement made with the Separates, some factions of Old Regulars would be in total harmony with the Old Line Primitives doctrine but not their order, or lack of, concerning womens dress, cutting of the hair , and in some locations they would not fellowship Masons , some of those calling themselves Old Line Primitive would. Brother Mike

 

Bro. Mike;
After this time and debating with each other, I think if it had of been you and I, we would of worked out the difference unless one of us became too hard headed, which does happen in these splits. There are things I believe, I know would cause confusion and I leave them alone. I will discuss them with someone like you but I just don't preach them.

You have it very close to how I believe and I think the being led to repentance is different than the children of God being led by His Spirit for I think you could still turn back at that point. You mentioned a Bro Thornsbury, well he was my traveling buddy and he died and left me. Seems like everytime I get someone I can travel with they up and die on me. Anyway, his name was Berlin and he preached it as a crossroads that every man encounters. I believe as follows to a T.

Ephesians, chapter 1

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now believing entails more than just belief. It also includes a broken heart and a repentant heart, a travail from nature to Grace.

Glad we agree on the Twelve tribes.

 

Believing

I like that answer better, it would also include coming, as an element, I have never refused to let a brother preach in the stand because, he sees one way and I see anthor on that debate as long as he believes in Salvation by Grace ,Justification by Faith , the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, repentence etc......... I would not make it a test for fellowship, I understand that we should be growing in grace and as we grow, we modify or establish new positions, we also preach with more light, on subjects, I do not really know that the New Salem ever tried to debate those doctrines with in that body at one time they had more that preached it than the Union, they and the Union still do, but most are older brothers very well versed and usually not challenged, to be honest there is not very many brothers left who could give much judgement or that enough ability to even carry a conversation, about some of these subjects.I am thankful just to engage your thoughts on these subjects, and have learned that you do not seem to be afraid to go on record for your convictions, even though I know for a fact that there are Old Regulars in some of your corresponding associations reading your post, along with the Indian Bottom, some have contacted me personally,other 's are afraid to state their views, lest they be misunderstood and they get in trouble with their home church. So take care , and I hope you have had a wonderful day.Bother Mike

 

Well, my email bscottsr@charter.net
If anyone wants to ask me or tell me anything, I am willing to listen. Because I befriend you is no reason I would tolerate someone saying something to me. The scripture says "entreat them as a brother" and that is exactly what I do. I don't think I have left our beliefs as a whole any since talking to you. There is always a few who will say something but never confront the one they are talking about. I really do not worry about those.

What we have been discussing, there are not too many who can talk on this subject. You have to tread lightly on this subject and not go too far either way. I don't know of any churches over here who would allow going very far with predestination without singing someone down. If a person preached that a man could not do anything about the condition he is in they would be sung down.

Believe me I get emails also about these conversations and approached at the Associations.

 

I think they are more worried about being on the inter-net, both of our positions are Old Regular Baptist positions that have been held by different Old Regular Baptist through out its history or at least since the merger of Regular and Separates,no one has made any negative remarks about either one of us, they knew me better as at one time I was a member of the New Salem there was one brother that you nor I, would be in agreement with, but I do not think either of us ,would have caused him any trouble, but if he would state his belief, on this forum I would have disagreed with him but in love,as I do not believe in the doctrine of eternal children or that we existed before the foundation of the world in substance but rather we were foreknown of God,nor do I believe that we have grace without measure but that we have a measure of grace, Christ would be the only one with Grace without measure but what Grace we have is sufficent,we are regenerated in time , not before the foundation of the world, if it was before the foundation of world then I see no need for predestination and predestination and foreknowledge are not the same,God knows what will be, but he also knows what could have been, our time or common salvation is dependant upon our obedience, while we can fall from our steadfastness in Christ we can not fall as to be lost eternally. Bro.Slone

 

I agree with all of that.
Being on the internet sometimes bothers me also. Not our discussions but sometimes it gets pretty hot between others and me. I usually don't back off and they don't either. It is only between the Calvinist and people like me. I think it is the Calvinist are losing ground and don't have as many places to spread their theology so they found this internet and use it, for they gang up on me.
The only reason I stay is I have enjoyed talking with you after we got to know each other some and I have been forced to study more than I ever studied in my life. Here I am almost 68 years old and stay in the scriptures everyday now seeking out the truth on everything. I never thought I would see the day, I would have to at least learn how to decipher Greek, but now I am pretty good at it. I think it has help me tremendeously and in doing that I think it helps the Old Regular Baptist people, for I can convey the truth to them. The Scripture says to always be ready to give a reason for your hope and also we have college kids now and if we don't know how to discuss any issue then we look like backwoodsmen. I want the people to know the Old Regular Baptist people study God's word. I am sure some don't understand but all that know me, would not be afraid of me being on here I don't think. They all know I am strong in my convictions.
If I ever feel like its a downfall, or if it ever offends anyone, if they will tell me, I will leave this board. I would leave so fast it would make their eyes water. I would do nothing to hurt the church but only that which is an upbuilding to God's church. amen,

 

Anti-Mission

The historic divide during the 1890's was not between Old Regulars and Old Line some of those associations now claim to be Old Line, I have seen circular letters that would support this,yet that body still retains secret order , which I think is contrary to Old Line principles.While the missionaries call us anti-mission Baptist most of our elders travel much farther than theirs, we do not believe that paying one brother to travel somewhere excuses us from doing the work of an evangelist, I have helped establish several Old Regular Baptist Churches in areas where there has been none, I think they should refer to us as anti-modern mission, and anti -mission board Baptist, I was given authority to preach wherever God in his wisdom cast my lot. I do agree with the Black Rock Address, We are Primitive Baptist and so is the Old United, they also could be called Regular Baptist also, we are all of one family that has been somewhat dysfunctional toward one anthor but I have tried to break through some of the walls that have been errected, and I am still trying and have met with some success, with brothers that are willing to look beyond handles, and to reason together, but the majority feel their pet issues are of greater value,than trying to come together and look at the Bible, and try to reason, and understand how we have come to different convictions, but we must admit errors on both sides of the fence have occured, there is no perfect local church on earth, but old school baptist should at least meet and listen to each other, Brother Slone