Has the US ever been a Christian nation.

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Either way, the principles on which this nation is founded are hypocritical and not althogether Biblical.

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The argument is irrelevant since we have long since gotten rid of slavery and given women the right to vote.

And legalized the holocaust of the unborn.

Joseph Botwinick

No nation is perfect.

Besides, the goal is to return the issue of abortion to the States where it had always been prior to January 1973. Until 1850 there was no massive movement toward outlawing abortion - LINK.

Correct. I never said it was.

Joseph Botwinick

Joe, you probably don't care but I disagree, too, especially with your last statement, that

the principles on which this nation is founded are hypocritical

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I can't disagree with the not Biblical part as it would be hard to argue that a set of political principles is Biblical anyway, short of theocracy. But I do disagree that the principles themselves are hypocritical. What it fails to take account of is that it was the principles themselves that were the basis for the opposition to slavery, i.e., it was our very espousal of principles of legal equality and liberty that was the standard against which slavery was found wanting. Another way to put it, perhaps, is that the Civil War helped bring the promise of American liberty and equality to African Americans. Some founders knew, I believe, that it was bound to happen and, of course, many knew that slavery was inconsistent with liberty. George Mason warned during the Federal Convention in 1787 that God punishes national sins with national calamities and I firmly believe that the Civil War was God's judgement on our nation. The fact that more Americans died in that war than any other is to me further evidence for that belief. Was it a perfect Founding? Of course not. There has never been and can never be one. Imperfect man imperfectly founded a nation on principles consistent with God-given liberties and he didn't apply those principles fairly or morally, but we were not founded in an historical vacuum either. Further, I think it is a noble thing that liberation of slavery is an almost uniquely American thing, that those in slavery around the world look to America as a land of liberty, and no other nation paid the price we did for that to happen. David McCullough, author of the recent John Adams bio and 1776 said that when he recently toured Hungary as they were preparing to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Budapest uprising against Soviet tyranny that someone there told him that 1776 (our Revolution, not his book) is part of their history too. All in all, not a bad legacy.

FTR, I am your biggest fan

And, as an aside, since we are no longer a Christian nation...

There were 16,137 murders in the United States in 2004, the last full year for which statistics are available.

In all, rapes increased by .8 percent to 94,635 rapes, or about 750 more than in 2003.

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Source

Of course, these statistics do not include the thousands of our American unborn who are slaughtered on a daily basis.

It would be interesting to see what the average percentage rate of murders and rapes was before the rise of the ACLU and no prayer in public schools and abortions were limited to back alleys.

FTR,

The founders were hypocritical as they proclaimed all men to be equal out of one side of their mouths, and then compromised on buying and selling humans like cattle out of the other side of their mouths. While we can certainly feel proud of the legacy of liberation that was the result of a bloody war, it certainly did nothing for the perception of America for the black slaves who had to attempt to cash a check with insufficient moral funds before then. If they were truly men of conviction, then they would have stood up and said, "No! Not with our approval!" They did not do so, and correct me if I am wrong, but I believe many of them may have even owned slaves. I don't buy the moral argument that they compromised until later.

It is not a strong argument of conviction, and most certainly is hypocritical.

Joseph Botwinick

JB, I greatly respect you and I understand your point, but I'll have to be satisfied with disagreeing. Let me ask you a question, though: had the New Englanders taken the moral stand of not allowing slavery into the Union and the Southern states not joined the Union, the chances are good of some not very happy conclusions: (1) trade wars between the two countries, which might have only hardened support for slavery in the South, (2) depredations of European nations seeking to aggravate such a rivalry which may have produced truly entangling and crippling alliances, none of which would have been as likely to have brought an end to slavery. There are surely other scenarios. Yes, it's all speculative, but though I certainly wish they could have abolished slavery at the point of our Founding, and, yes, it was a compromise with evil, and a morally corrupting compromise, I believe that for the time, and the eventual liberation that did come to the slaves, it was the best that could be hoped for and, from some poor choices, was the best one available.


Bunyon,

And I yours. I hope you'll stay with BB. If you haven't already, you'll find there are lots of good folks here, and that occasionally you'll find yourself disagreeing with some folks, as mine here with JB, that you usually agree with and greatly admire.

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The founders were hypocritical as they proclaimed all men to be equal out of one side of their mouths, and then compromised on buying and selling humans like cattle out of the other side of their mouths.

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I imagine you, and I, would have been no better than they in 1776, Joseph.

Consider what Jesus said about the Pharisees(not that I am saying you(or I) are a Pharisee - this is an example of someone saying they would have acted differently back in history than others did):

Matthew 23:30 (ESV)
saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

Oops, double post.

Our country was settled by Christians who took their faith seriously. Primarily Puritans, Quakers, Anglicans, and Scots-Irish protestants. Then, as now, you could call them 'hypocrites' if you wanted, since no man or woman has ever lived or thought in a perfectly Godly way, other than our Lord.

This is apart from what the writers of our constitution and declaration of independance put down on paper. But even they had no intention of dismantling the state-based Christian churches that then existed.

Yes, the Europeans who settled here were overwhelmingly Christian and lived their faith, as they understood it, on a daily basis. We were a Christian nation.

NiteShift,

But even they had no intention of dismantling the state-based Christian churches that then existed.

I would only add a correction: they did in fact dismantle the established state churches. The last state with an established church was Massachusetts, who disestablished in 1833.

What is stopping anyone from praying in a public schools?The generations that brought these things to pass went to these schools when the door was still open for prayer in schools.I have looked at possibly the same crime, ect. stats you have Lady Eagle,they look convincing.Through out our countrys history good honest for the most part,kind giving,folks that have recognised the benifits from the teachings in Bible have lived long prosperous lives many of them,even claimed to beleive in God.That doesn't make this a Christian nation.And since you beleive this was once a Christian nation ,could you tell us when it ceased being a Christian nation.I held the line with ftr and Lady eagle and many others on this issue for most of my life.It seems to me no matter how bad I really want to beleive what is preached or taught on the subject of our founders and this great God blessed nation,by the way I do beleive God has greatly blessed this nation,because it pleased Him, not because of the fine thoughts and words of our founders.Not so sure, RTG

"I would only add a correction: they did in fact dismantle the established state churches. The last state with an established church was Massachusetts, who disestablished in 1833."

But not by the framers of the constitution. The Puritans who settled Massachusetts had become largely secular by that time, and you could say it collapsed on it's own.

You're right. I don't know if I would say "largely secular" but certainly more secular.

Originally posted by fromtheright:
You're right. I don't know if I would say "largely secular" but certainly more secular.

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True, the degree of secularism in Mass. in 1837 is debatable. At any rate, due to continued immigration and other causes the Puritans lost their hold on New England.

But the funny thing is that even now, in an area that is quite secular, the people of that region have held on to many of the attitudes of the Puritans; an urge to reform, a strong sense of what is the 'correct' thing to do, and a certain self-righteousness, but from a humanist standpoint.

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The founders were hypocritical as they proclaimed all men to be equal out of one side of their mouths, and then compromised on buying and selling humans like cattle out of the other side of their mouths.

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I imagine you, and I, would have been no better than they in 1776, Joseph.

Consider what Jesus said about the Pharisees(not that I am saying you(or I) are a Pharisee - this is an example of someone saying they would have acted differently back in history than others did):

Matthew 23:30 (ESV)
saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' </font>[/QUOTE]Never said I would have been. We are all totally depraved, remember? That doesn't change the fact that the founders did talk hypocritically out of both sides of their mouths when they talked about equality, just as we are still hypocrites today when it comes to civil rights for some, but not all (unborn). Does that mean we are totally evil? Of course not. But Biblical and Christian nation? I think not. If we were, we would not even be debating the worth of the unborn and we would not have even thought twice about outlawing slavery in our founding.

Joseph Botwinick

Joe, would it be fair to say that by your definition of a Christian nation the only system that would meet it would be under the rule of Christ?

FTR,

That would be correct, which is why I would argue that there is no Christian nation in the world, since God's kingdom is not of this world, and there won't be a "Christian Nation" until we get to heaven. Would that not be your definition of a Christian Nation?

Joseph Botwinick