Wives should submit to their husbands????

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bunyon:
Many of the divorces, in spite of what you say, are due to career conflicts and differing desires about having kids and such.

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Those aren't headship/submission issues either. Those are issues that partners should have discussed prior to marriage.</font>[/QUOTE]The key word is prior.

Many marriages would not suffer so, including Christian ones, it couples would not focus on the WEDDING, but the MARRIAGE.

In the deep South, a wedding is a woman's "greatest day of her life." UGH! I would hope not. If that's true, then every day after the wedding is all downhill.

Pre-nuptial couples should sit down and discuss their lives together, preferably with someone from the following list:

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• a trusted clergy who understands both parties needs and responsibilities</font>
• if they are young enough, their own parents, if those parents have a model relationship</font>
• perhaps an older couple whose marriage has withstood the test of time</font>
• a Christian marriage counselor, specializing in pre-nuptial counseling</font>
• trusted and trustworthy married friends</font>

Here are some questions that if answered BEFORE the wedding, would have saved many marriages:

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• Where are we going to live?</font>
• What's our plan of action for saving money?</font>
• Whose paycheck will pay for which bills?</font>
• Who will balance the checkbooks?</font>
• How many children will we have, if any?</font>
• What's our plan of action for discipling our children?</font>
• Who is going to sit up with the children when they are sick, change diapers, and take care of school business?</font>
• What's our plan of action for presenting a united front to our children, especially when they are teenagers and try to manipulate the two of us?</font>
• Whose parents' house are we going to for holidays?</font>
• What's our plan of action when and if our parents interfere with our business?</font>
• How are we going to worship God as a couple instead of two individuals now?</font>
• Which church are we going to?</font>
• Will we attent Sunday School as a married couple or attend a separate men's and women's class?</font>
• What's going to be our plan if we have a really BIG fight?</font>
• How can we plan ahead of time to not allow our arguements to interfere with daily relationship with each other.</font>
• What's our plan of action if one of us gets really sick?</font>
• Are we going to put each other on each other's insurance?</font>
• How are we going to "divy" up the menial chores?</font>
• What's our plan on showing each other everyday that we love each other?</font>
• What's our plan on behaving towards God and presenting ourself to the world and our family as "one flesh".</font>

This list is virtually endless. I'm sure that there are a host of married couples who wished that they had thought about a whole lot of marital situations and not thought so much about what color that the groom's tuxedos should be nor what style of bridemaid's dresses should be chosen.

Peace-
Scarlett O.
&lt;&gt;&lt;

Genesis 3:16 (kjv)

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


Having said that...

My husband does love me very much, and submitting to him is so easy because he is so loving and caring. He wants my voice. He wants my opinion. He nurtures me. We have an excellent marriage. He doesnt make me call him Lord, wash his feet, or do anything arbitrary. Does he have a right to? In my opinion. No, but should he be foolish enough to think he did, I am obligated to obey.

I think he is a pretty smart man though, and he leads in a Godly manner.

Scarlett,
You make great points and have a great list. But I would say that flexibility is needed.
In my almost 30 years of marriage,we have changed how we do specific things on your list many times.
For example, who does what chores has depended on factors at the time that later might change.
We have belonged to more than one church, and classes varied.
However, talking about these issues upfront does give the couple insight into each other.

Karen

Scarlett

Even though things turned out the way they did, I still believe that your mother made the right decision to follow. Your father may have been in the wrong and they are now reaping the wrongness of that decision, but consider what would have happened if your father had gone to that church,and your mother stayed at the other. It could have been worse.

The church that we are at now, in no way did I want to attend when my husband decided that that would be where we were to stay. I wanted to buck away from it so bad, but I chose to submit. In my situation, this church has brought out the leader in my husband and he has grown leaps and bounds and is a better husband because of it. Meanwhile, I am still not in love with the church at all, and while I have in some way made myself at home there, I dont think that it is where we will end up long term...however, I dont think bibically, it was in my right to fight my husband on it, and I can see the fruit of my right choice. I can also still see where a different church might be a little more fitting for ministering to my needs.

My husband has never had to force my hand though. I willfully did this.

Just my opinion.

""My husband does love me very much, and submitting to him is so easy because he is so loving and caring. He wants my voice. He wants my opinion. He nurtures me. We have an excellent marriage. He doesnt make me call him Lord, wash his feet, or do anything arbitrary. Does he have a right to? In my opinion. No, but should he be foolish enough to think he did, I am obligated to obey. ""---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See Johnv, there is nothing to fear from a Godley husband who wants to lead as Christ did. He will use his authorit wisely and compassionantly, and his wife, by her very nature will respond to it if she allows herself to. It is not the threatening thing you seem to think requires so many warnings and caveats. I suspect at some point in your life you have been exposed to a dominate male who was thoughtless and careless in his leadership role. And pushy about religion.

"Those aren't headship/submission issues either."------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess if you declare them not to be, then you don't have to worry about dealing with the issue, do you?

"Headship and submission are shoes that every spouse must slip into, but they're not "one size fits all" roles."---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But they are gender specific, yes?

"You're saying back then they did not have the ability to arrest violent spouses (some women can be pretty vicious when armed)? There were no laws against assault or were they simply not enforced in domestic situations?"----------------------------------------------------------------

Daisy, As a former police officer, I can explain this to you. It is generally true then and is still generally true now, that in most crimes against a person such as assult, if the victim wont press charges, the police can't do anything. A speacial law was past in the 80's which mandated that police had to arrest a spouse and hold him or her for 24 hours if their was evidence of domestic abuse. It is a specail law and is an exception to the rule.

The whole Idea that women were unhappy slaves in the past is femenist mumb jumbo. Times change and so do laws, but if you read the diaries of women of the past, you don't find them hating their lives. Yes there are times and issues, but in general, we have always worked it out and gotten along pretty well, especially here in America.

Originally posted by Bunyon:
See Johnv, there is nothing to fear from a Godley husband who wants to lead as Christ did.

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I agree. The only thing incorrect about the previous post is where she says "I am obligated to obey." She is not, as I'm sure you'll agree. GOdly sumbission does not mean "obedience to everything what the husband tells you to".

I suspect at some point in your life you have been exposed to a dominate male who was thoughtless and careless in his leadership role. And pushy about religion.

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Not particluarly. In fact, all the Godly men I know share my views on the topic.

I guess if you declare them not to be, then you don't have to worry about dealing with the issue, do you?

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They're not. Period.

But they are gender specific, yes?

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Never said they weren't, did I?

Originally posted by Bunyon:
...in most crimes against a person such as assult, if the victim wont press charges, the police can't do anything.

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That's no longer true. If there's evidence of physical abuse, the police can make an arrest sans a victim pressing charges.

"I agree. The only thing incorrect about the previous post is where she says "I am obligated to obey." She is not, as I'm sure you'll agree. GOdly sumbission does not mean "obedience to everything what the husband tells you to"."-------------------------------------------------------

Well then why all the effort at adressing what men should not do. I agree with most of it, but I think there is an obligation for a Godly women to adhere to scripute, even if she can't be coerced by her husband or her God. Wheater a woman sees it as an obligation will depend on how committed she is to the scriptures. But we agree that in the end it is the woman's obligation alone- She decides and she commits or not.

"Never said they weren't, did I?"-----------------------------------------------------------------

No you didn't buddy, pal, friend, me amigo. But you make such a habbit out of being on the edge doctrinally that I have to figure out which side you fall on sometimes.

"Not particluarly. In fact, all the Godly men I know share my views on the topic."---------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, but what about the "ungodly" ones who thought they were godly and may have influenced you in a negative way or made a negative impression on you.

"That's no longer true. If there's evidence of physical abuse, the police can make an arrest sans a victim pressing charges."------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnv, I believe this is only true in domestic situations. For you average street fight, I'll still think charges would have to be filed. No?

Not sure, to be honest with you.

I think you have it right, John.

Can anyone prove to me scripturally that I am not obligated to obey, because it seems pretty clear that I am to obey.

thanks

Originally posted by Emily25069:
Can anyone prove to me scripturally that I am not obligated to obey, because it seems pretty clear that I am to obey.

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There is no scripture that tells a wife to do everything her husband tells her. There are verses covering submission, and being subject. These are contextually limited to the spiritual role. That's it.

I would, in fact, suggest that a wife who blindly does everything the husband says is abusing her own spiritual role of submission.

"These are contextually limited to the spiritual role. That's it."


How do you figure?


I dont blindly do every single thing that my husband tells me to do, but he is the leader in our family and I pray that God would give him wisdom in directing us in both spiritual and non spiritual matters.

One small example of a non-spiritual thing would be ironing. I used to like to iron 1 of his work outfits each night for it to be ready for him the next day. He did not like this arrangement at all. He wanted me to iron once weekly so that it would be done and he could spend more time with him in the evenings. This irritated me because I was the one doing the work, so I should be able to pick how it is done, but I could see how important it was to him for some silly reason, and I adapted to him and now I iron once a week instead of everynight, and I am glad that my husband pushed the issue, because I do like the fact that I dont have to do that annoying task each evening, just once a week.

I am his helper as the bible says. I was created to help him, as the bible also says. He loves me, as the bible commands him to do. We have an absolutely glorious, happy, strong, fulfilling marriage, and I feel it is because we both do our best to follow our roles. He leads with love, I follow with submission. "Wives, obey your husbands in everything." everything

Originally posted by Emily25069:
How do you figure?

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What do you mean "how do I figure?" Read the full chapters that said verses are in, and it's apparant.

I dont blindly do every single thing that my husband tells me to do, but he is the leader in our family and I pray that God would give him wisdom in directing us in both spiritual and non spiritual matters.

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If he is the leader in your family over all things, it is because the two of you have decided that this is what works best for the two of you, which is perfectly fine. It is not a scriptural mandate.

One small example of a non-spiritual thing would be ironing.

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There is no scriptural mandate requiring a wife to do all the ironing if the husband instructs her to.

I am his helper as the bible says.

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The bible says you are his help-meet. That means that you are his aide, and he is yours to the same extent. The two of you are one flesh. There is no one above the other, or one apart from the other.

He leads with love, I follow with submission. "Wives, obey your husbands in everything."

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No, it says "Children, obey your parents in everything". It says of wives to "submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord." It also says you should "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ".

The whole thread comes down to the question of "Should wives submit to their husbands?"

The answer is "Yes", absolutely. They should submit as Scripture calls them to, not as their husbands tell them to.

Im sorry John, I just really dont agree with you on this.

I understand your view, but its just not what I personally get out of those scriptures. At any rate, I really have a glorious marriage.

Originally posted by Emily25069:
Im sorry John, I just really dont agree with you on this.

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I go by what scripture says. If you and your hubby have additionaly methods that work in your household, then that's perfectly fine. But don't presume that all Christian must do as you. They must do only as scripture instructs.

I understand your view, but its just not what I personally get out of those scriptures.

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I'm sticking strictly to what scripture says. You can't argue with the fact that scripture does not say "Wives, obey your husbands in everything" as you stated. So to say "this is what scripture says" is patently wrong. If this is what you have chosen to do, that's fine. But to insist you are doing this "because scripture says" is a false application of scripture, not to mention a false application (and possibly abuse) of the scriptural roles of spouses.

At any rate, I really have a glorious marriage.

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So do I. I take my headship role very seriously. My wife takes her submission role very seriously. I don't "order" her or "command" thing of her, because if I did, I'd be abusing my spiritual role, and this committing sin. Likewise, she doesn't just "comply" with everything I want, becaust that would be an abuse of the spiritual role of submission. My wife is not below me, or above me. Neither am I to her. She is my equal, and together we are one body. Jesus Christ is the head of my household.

The head of the woman is the man. Why don't you tell us what this means, John? If it means equal, then we are equal with Christ in the same verse, and that is absolute heresy.