The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Frogman: "I admit I understand very little of this topic and
as I read more historical confessions there are very
few evidences of either pre-mil and especially pre-trib
belief among Old Baptists or other Baptistic groups."

I also understand little. As for the 'historical confessions' I'm
unable to check all these out that they were said as quoted.
I've seen too much 'slander by ellipsis (...)'* from those who
quote sources i can't check. I can check nearly any version
of the Bible ever printed. I take the moral high ground that i
don't use the writings of the ECF = early church fathers
nor do i use the 'historical confessions'. I'm sure that from
about 325 until well into the Protestant Reformation that the
dominant church of Europe: The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) were
post-millennial - they would set up a world that was good enough
for Jesus to come and rule.

*The worse of the anti-pretribbers for doing the 'slander by ellipsis (...)
was Dave MacPherson.

Again, I say, the 117-18th century Baptist confessions were made
to unite brothers separated by different eschatologies. Their statements
tend to allow many different eschatologies.

Frogman: "I also admit I don't understand the post you made and I
have quoted above, would you elaborate upon it a little?"

I'm not sure how I can elaborate. I understand what I said.
Are you wondering what place it has in the conversation?

One of the arguments against the pretribs is that they keep
naming dates which prove to be wrong. In fact, the True Church has
always believed that Jesus would come get them SOON. All post-tribs
violate the 'soon' because the Lord has to wait to come get the
church after 7-years of Tribulation Period (some say 3½-years).
In either case, the time of the Glorious Second Coming of Jesus to
defeat the Antichrist and set up a Physical Millennial Kingdom -
that time is known IF YOU KNOW WHEN THE PRETRIB rapture took place.
Right now we don't know when the pretrib rapture will take place
but we know the Glorious Second Coming even will happen 7-years
(some say 3½-years ) later.

So we cannot know the day or the hour (day = proper time) (hour =
proper time) and not knowing the day or the hour means that the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection is NEAR but not here yet.
(though if the Lord comes before i get this writing posted, we won't
care a bit)

As for the ideas of what God's plan for the future is like - this has
been developing within the church through the years. So we have
no problem saying that the Great Doctor Wallvoor is wrong, for we stand
on his giant shoulders and can see further then he can.
When I was saved at a pretribulation rapture revival in April 1952,
I thought: Now I'll be ready when Jesus comes to get me. It is going to
be good to see God whip it on the bad guys who are left after the
rapture/resurrection. In 1963-1967 I was in the Air Force some 300 miles from
the iron curtain. After I got out I found out about 1964 was the first year
that the US had enough nuclear weapons to kill all life on earth about 6
times over and The USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) had enough
nuclear weapons to kill all live on the face of the earth a dozen times over.
(Since do to weapon controls there are only enough nuclear weapons on the
earth to kill only all human life and maybe not all life on earth)
Now it is obvious that the Lord has to interfere in the affairs of mankind
to save mankind from destroying themselves. It is obvious now that the God
inspired prophecies of the Holy Bible knew this would happen in the future.
Note that it was AD1964 before we could understand this and NOT IN AD70.

Another argument against the pretribs is that they divide the largely gentile church
from the national Jewish Israeli church. Well quite frankly, so does the Holy Bible.

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769) /emphasis added by Ed/:
Give none offense, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

Strange that in the Gentile Age (AKA: Church Age, Age of Grace, etc.) God
has Paul write about three groups;

1. unsaved GENTILES
2. saved gentiles in the CHURCH OF GOD
3. JEWS.

But hey, one aught be able to overcome what the Bible says if they
quote enough discombobulated ECF quotes and early Confessions

 

Dear Brother Ed,
you wrote:

Do these two agree?

Bro. Dallas Eaton

Thanks for the post addressing my question. I guess I mean to ask what is the place of this in the current dicussion, but only as a participator not a moderator. I also would like to ask an explanation of it. Perhaps both these questions are in your recent post addressing my question, I will read it carefully to see if I am able to understand it.

As I have stated, I am pre-mil, however, I am beginning to believe the church will not escape the tribulation period.

However, earlier today while sitting a our boy's little league baseball game, I was contemplating this topic and realized a post-trib return is not conducive to a pre=mil return, or else how do we understand the time and place of the marriage of the lamb?

The post mil, can such a person not reject the pre-mil?

 

Dear Brother Ed,
Currently, I do see the distinctions, such as that between the church, Israel, and the family of God.

I don't see these carried over into eternity however, I mean after Christ has delivered the kingdom up unto the Father, HE, the Father, having put all things under His feet.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Here again is my 5-Tribulation writing.
Please notice the differences between
'tribulation' the wretched condition mesured in
pain and hurt and 'tribularion' the time period
measured in years.

---------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

As you can see my
posts get very long. If i distinguish
despensationally between the current age,
the Millennial Age and the Tribulation Period
inner-Age break I'll further take all your
reading time. Plus I've worked like 50 hours
this week at a secular job and typed 30 hours
or more mostly on this thread - my carpel-tunnel
pains are acting up. So i may slow down.
That is: i don't adequately distinguish my
remarks to which dispensation I'm speaking
of nor of the inner-dispensational
Tribulation Period.

Recall that in God's economy He may describe that
which is to be (to us) as though it already
is (and to God it already is, for He is not
bound to traverse time in the one-direction-only
manner in which we traverse it. So in the
endless ages of eternity the Mostly Gentile
Church Age church will be one in heaven with
the O.T. Israeli elect/saints and the Tribulation
Period national Jewish-Israeli elect/saint/church.

 

The TRINITY causes much confusion about the scriptures, so to correctly understand one must keep in mind the "CONTEXT" of which the scripture refer.

God dealt with Israel under the Law and prophets in the OT, and Jesus with the Church under the "Holy Ghost" in the NT, these are obvious and easy to comprehend.

But what isn't so "obvious", is that Jesus doesn't deal with Israel, and God doesn't deal with the Church, do you see how confusing that "Sounds"?

Jews require physical "Signs and wonder" by "prophets", but Jesus won't give any signs, save the sign of Jonas.

The church accepts the "Spiritual Leadership" of the "Holy Ghost" (Jesus voice) and believes, "Because of his words", "FAITH", without signs and wonders.

But Israel wouldn't accept the "VOICE OF JESUS", even when he was "physically speaking" to them, much less through the "Spirit".


The "Law and prophets" stopped with Jesus, Israel was "BLINDED" because they refused to accept spiritual leadership, after the HG (Comforter) is "Taken out of the way", (Rapture) the Law and prophets system will return with the "two witnesses" (Moses/Elijah, law giver/prophet) during the trib period.

Leadership by both the "law and prophet" and "Spiritual" (HG) do not function at the same time, in the same time frame.

Who is dealing with whom (God/Israel, Jesus/Church) is revealed in the scriptures by the "TYPE" of leadership being used.

The trinity doesn't only describe the characteristics of GOD, it also "explains" scripture according to this type of leadership.


The "TRINITY" must be "DIVIDED" according to it's "COMPONENTS" (Father/Son) to understand the scriptures.

God will make a "NEW HEAVEN/EARTH", However God will remain in the New Heaven and the "NEW JERUSALEM" will "COME DOWN" from Heaven to the New Earth.

Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The "Tabernacle of God", is the "BODY OF JESUS".


3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

But my point is that the "FATHER" will remain in heaven and the "SON" here on earth.

The TRINITY continues through "ETERNITY".

 

All you need to do is look in the book Major Bible Prophecies by Walvoord and start reading on page 282, paragraph heading, The definition of the church. That is simple enough. </font>[/QUOTE]I have to do quite a bit more than that:

1. Go to work and earn about $40.
2. Go to a Christian Bookstore and order the book
3. Wait for the mailman to deliver the book
4. turn to page 282 ...

By Contrast, i have dozens of Bibles and
can check Bible quotations for accuracy.
I don't care about Doctor (honorary) Walvoord's
ideas; I care about God's ideas in the Bible.

Jesus is going to come get me sometime before
the Tribulation Period starts - then
I'll be glorified in Christ at the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection. Doctor (honorary) Walvoord
ain't gonna do nothing for me.

 

"Wrong", it will lead you "Astray".

Opps, "FOR ME", is to "benefit", isn't it??

Sorry about that.

 

"Wrong", it will lead you "Astray".

Opps, "FOR ME", is to "benefit", isn't it??

Sorry about that. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]No problem. TeeHee - you gotta
scrath where it itches

 

OldRegular Face#1: "I wonder if either of these scholars
has read anything by Dr. Walvoord. I will bet they
don't even own a Scofield or Ryrie study Bible."

OldRegular Face#2: "I have posted on a number of threads the following Doctrines regarding the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as they have been held throughout Baptist History until some Baptists were seduced by the Darby/Scofield error called dispensationalism."

Please, Sir OldRegular, you are allowed to attack us with
one and only one face

OldRegular: " ... on this Forum but two dispensational scholars,
Me4Him and Ed Edwards, whose great learning overshadows
that of Dr. Walvoord."

Which part of the Old Lights doctrine of Soul Competency
are you having trouble with? Brother Me4HIm and Brother Ed
and even Brother OldRegular all live closer to the pretribulation
rapture than did Bro. Dr (honorary) Walvoord. IT only makes
sence that we would comprehend more about that event than
an old timer like Brother Doctor (honorary) Walvoord.
Anyway, a person's understanding of scripture is NOT a matter of training
and learning but one's yielding ones self to God's will.

The following words come from:
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/4_17/pages/mohler.html
Bolding is by Ed:

Soul competency is a belief that individual
Christians are responsible to God for reading,
understanding and living out God's word. It implies
that no other human authority can dictate how
an individual interprets Scripture or relates to God.
Both Mullins and Herschel Hobbs, chairman of the committee
that revised the Baptist Faith & Message in 1963,
called the doctrine of soul competency
the most distinctive belief of Baptists.

 

Normal everyday "tribulations, YES, but not "GREAT TRIBULATION", a time such as never been before or ever will be again.
</font>[/QUOTE]Now what could be worse than being eaten alive by wild animals or covered with pitch and used as candles for Roman feasts. Tribulation may involve a few, great tribulation would involve many. In another thread it has been pointed out that there were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century than the previous 19. So define "great tribulation" for me. </font>[/QUOTE]Quite the contray. There is NO NEED for me to define "great
tribulation" for you. Jesus did it quite well.

Jesus says in Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611 Edition):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
those dayes shall be shortned.

I can see we Church Age elect appealing to Jesus to end the
torment of the earthly bound during the Great Tribulation.

Note other things from this passage:
The Great Tribulation is after the AOD = Abomination
of Desolation. The Great Tribulatin is the worse thing
that ever happens on earth NOT 2/7th of the history of
earth

 

You might be surprised to learn that I don't own "ANYTHING", other than the "KJV".

No "lexicons", No "Dictionaries", No "Cross-referrences", No "word numbering", NOTHING.

About the only "Extra material" I make uses of are "OLD JEWISH CUSTOMS", as the OT is our "school Master", so are many of these "customs".

I depend 100% on the "SPIRIT" to teach me, and by the "SPIRIT" I "RECOGNIZE" the "TRUTH" in "words", regardless of the writer.

"TRUTH IS TRUTH".

Besides, I'm more "QUALIFIED" than Walvoord.

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;