Featured What do members of the BB hold as separating them from Papists?

Maybe you can tell me the difference between a charge of lying and a charge of "falsely asserting."

And if you actually addressed my posts and showed how this was done...I would apologize if I misrepresented you.

Yes, Aaron, you really do.


God bless.

 

Isn't that the same thing you say is superstitious?

And I would agree, that is error.

It was a necessity because it was prophesied and had to be fulfilled.

But I agree not a necessity in regards to Christ's relationship to sin.

Agreed.

I see that now, and apologize for my error.

The wording is a little suggestive, though:


agedman said: ↑
On the recent thread expressing areas in which the typical Baptist might share commonly with Papists, there were some interesting responses.

For instance, in one post (forgot the poster), it was mentioned that the trinity, deity of Christ, nature of sin ... were all aligned between Baptists and Papists.

Now I would disagree with some items given on that list.

For example, the deity of Christ.

The typical papist does not consider the death of Christ removed the barrier and established man as reconciled to God. Rather, they must contend for some scheme of punishment of undetermined length in order to satisfy the wrath of God and therefore gain heaven.

Such thinking denies the deity, purpose, and work of Christ.

What areas do you consider provide Biblical doctrinal separation between the typical papist from that of the Baptist?
Click to expand...


The Trinity, the Inspiration of the Scriptures, the Deity of Christ, the Virgin Birth, and the list goes on. These are all in agreement with the Catholics. No one asserted, as you did falsely, that Catholics and Baptists were "all aligned" on the doctrines. The Baptists aren't "all aligned" among themselves. Indeed, the moment you begin to expound upon the Trinity, let alone the Virgin Birth, you would reveal notions no less erroneous and superstitious.

The final part of this was not expanded so your statement in light of what is said prior was questionable. That is my error, and I apologize.

Again, agreed, that is error.

No idea what this is supposed to mean. "Life is passed?"

Agreed.

Not agreed. The source of Life was the spirit breathed directly from God.

That is what was lost when Adam died as a result of his disobedience.

That is what is restored in salvation in Christ.

It is the reconciliation of the separation all men are born into since Adam sinned and died.

Agreed.


God bless.

 

One God, three Persons. Not a tribunal of three equal spirits. One Entity in three distinct Persons. It is something that is revealed, yet is incomprehensible. No, the Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the Son, and neither are the Holy Spirit. There are three distinct Persons each with His own mind. However, there is only one God. There is no good earthly example except marriage, and even that falls short, because we can see two distinct persons. What we cannot see is how they really are one flesh.

Expounding further will do less to make the concept clearer. Some things are just unspeakable and full of glory.

Let me rephrase: Sin is the absence of something, and that thing is life. Having lost life, Adam cannot pass it.

If it were the same, Adam could not have fallen, because he would have been begotten of God. John says of us that we cannot sin because we are born of God. We cannot be corrupted and we cannot fall away, being partakers of the divine nature. (And don't start with the "You think you don't sin?" stuff. I mean what John means) Nowhere is it written that Adam was born or begotten of God.

 

The similarity is: Their demigod is the pope; the demigod of dispensationalists is the doctrine of John Nelson Darby and Cyrus I. Scofield!

 

In reality there is only One Person in regards to a Body, and that is Jesus the Christ, which must be distinguished from the Son.

The reason for the distinction is that Jesus Christ has a beginning in time in relation to His Incarnation, whereas the Son of God...does not.

God is Spirit. He ministers to man in Three primary functions which are relevant to the sphere of ministry.

He ministers to all of Eternity and we know Him as our Father.

He ministers directly to man and we know Him as the Son.

He ministers to the hearts of men and we know Him as the Spirit.

We call those Persons to give Him relationship to our own current disposition.

And I would tell you without controversy all Three are Equal. The only time we might ascribe inequality would be in regards to the incarnation, where His glory was veiled in humanity.

Christ taught enough on this for us not to misunderstand the Equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and at the risk of being hammered for a tome, lol, I will provide a few verses for your consideration in regards to this point:


Revelation 1:11

King James Version (KJV)


10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Revelation 1:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Now lets see God speak in the Old Testament:


Isaiah 41

King James Version (KJV)

4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.


Isaiah 48:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Back to the New:


John 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The Son of God is the Creator. Shall we say the Father is not?

No, because God is God. He is Spirit, and He is One.

Exactly.




And it'll take about one minute, maybe two, to read this tome.


Continued...

 

Not so, my friend: God gave us His Word that we might know Him.

That is why we call it revelation. He means for us to understand if we will allow Him to teach us. That is the primary purpose of providing us with His Word.

Think not?

Let me ask you this, Aaron, Who indwells the believer? Father? Son? Holy Ghost?

Yep.


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Over and over we see God say He will indwell the believer.

Paul makes an equation of the Holy Ghost and the Son here:


Romans 8:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


One more:


Revelation 3:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me


I don't see this as a physical door, but the door of the heart.

And overcoming is described by John in 1 John 5:1-5.

We must be born again, born of God, born from above. That is the process of being Baptized with the Holy Ghost which is synonymous with being Baptized into Christ.

The Lord...He is God.


Continued...

 

This again suggests an inequality that Scripture does not present.

We see that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are always of the same mind, the same will. While we would see a distinction in "personality," so to speak, I don't see Scripture presenting THem as anything but Equal in all things.

We consider the Incarnation, though, which is where we see a "separation" of sorts. But at no time did Christ deny His Deity (and I know you are not saying that, Aaron), but made it clear that men who spoke to Him were speaking to God, and the distinction of Son does not change that fact.


John 14:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


And I know you are familiar with this passage, I am just using this to illustrate the point.

I would also add, in regards to the Mind of God (singular), that we see the Equality taught by Christ (for which men desired to slay Him for blasphemy) here:


Philippians 2

King James Version (KJV)

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Paul uses the greatest illustration of the Mind of Christ, and exhorts us to be of like mind. That is, that we should "look on the things of others."

That is the Mind of God, right? Here we see that Christ veiled His glory with the flesh of men, for the express reason He looked upon the things of...us.

Exactly.




God bless.

 

Marriage is a poor example, in my own opinion, because it necessitates two distinct persons that are unique to themselves, and even after marriage they are still two people present.

God is One.

When we are indwelt we are indwelt by God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

When two people are married they are still two, and they become one in child-birth (the twain made one).

Sure we can...look at the baby.

Sure it will.

It's just a matter of ridding ourselves of concepts which actually confuse. There is one that is better, and that is a flame, which is one and is light, heat, and substance.

The egg one is horrible too. lol

Agreed.

Doesn't mean God doesn't want us to understand, though.

Not really. Sin is a consequence of the malady, which is separation from God.

The baby in the womb is not guilty of sin, but has no claim to Heaven because all babies are separated from God, or, to put it better, they have the absence of God Who is the source of Life on an Eternal basis. We have physical life, and God has provided means for us to have spiritual life which is eternal. It is not a substance poured into believers, this is imposed into the life of the physically alive/spiritually dead when we are Baptized with the Holy Ghost which is synonymous with being Baptized into Christ, which is synonymous with God indwelling us.

See Christ's Word again:


John 14:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


Now Adam did not die physically, and babies are not born without physical life, and when we correlate that to what happens when we are born again, the obvious conclusion is that Adam died spiritually. And in order for that to happen, then Adam must have first had that Life which only God can bestow.


Continued...

 

On the contrary, having the Spirit of God indwelling us does not mean that we cannot sin.

Adam was not that different from us physically, aside from the fact that he lived over 900 years, was in dominion over the earth...

...well, okay, Adam was a lot different physically. lol

But, what plunged man into sin was not a physical condition, but a spiritual condition.

In John 6 we see Christ make it clear that it is the Bread of Heaven come down from Heaven that bestows eternal life, and He (Who is the Bread of Life) bestows that life based on faith in His Death (His flesh and His blood).

Consider:

John 6:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.


John 6:53-54

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Back to Adam: Adam had a life which was taken away. Some see it as a matter of physical death only, but the implicit teachings of Scripture make it clear that death is a consequence, and if we are careful we will come to realize that sin itself is a consequence.

In John 6 we see three breads mentioned: the bread which sustained the great multitude (and was the real motivation for these "followers"); the bread which sustained the multitude in the Wilderness (manna), and the Bread of Heaven.

Only the Bread of Heaven provides eternal life.

He was begotten of God:

Genesis 5

King James Version (KJV)

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


Continued...

 

John is speaking of a pattern of sin:


1 John 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


The two are contrasted and John does not establish a temporal sinless nature, but contrasts those who "purify themselves" with those who commit sin. If one is already pure, he need not purify himself, right? God is pure, not us.

John makes it clear in chapter 1:


1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Again, John is not contradicting himself, but is contrasting the patterns of two very different types of people. One who purifies himself, and one who commits sin.

On the contrary, we can be corrupted and while we cannot lose salvation...we can certainly fall under the judgment of God if we sin.

You realize that the death penalty for sin has never changed, right?


Acts 5:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.


1 Corinthians 11:29-30

King James Version (KJV)

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


While the Covenant of Law has been made obsolete through the establishment of the New Covenant, the principles of God's Law never change.

Christians stand in far greater danger than unbelievers in regards to sin. To whom much is given, much shall be required.

No need for me to start, I saw another talking with you on this in another thread. It is something you need to balance in your heart based on Scripture.

And the balance is this: we are still in bodies in need of redemption. Adam sinned, which shows he was capable of sin as well. The bottom line would be in deciding what life Adam lost, and what Life we gain.

Again, I take the view Adam was in relationship with God which was a spiritual union. When Adam sinned, that union was broken, and Adam became physical only, even as those who do not have Christ have always only been physical, natural.

Adam was of the earth, earthy, but Christ was made a Life-Giving Spirit.

Anyone God breathes the breath of Life into is born of God.

That is what distinguishes born again believers from those who are only born of the flesh.


John 3

King James Version (KJV)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


God bless.

 

How many resurrections in Revelation, OR?


God bless.

 

You say the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are operations, not Persons. The long and the short of it is this: You think of God like you think of a man, and in your tome, you have changed His glory into an image made like to corruptible man. You reduce Him to something around which you can wrap your fleshly mind, and in reality, you have denied the Trinity.

 

Now, concerning the violence you do John's epistles: Jesus said something you would find hard to wrest.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?​

John is not talking about any pattern of life and death. He is saying that those who believe in Him have eternal life even though bodily, they may die. And when He says they shall never die, He means it, not because they by works have sanctified and purified and disciplined themselves, but because they have eternal life. The are partakers of the divine nature.

When John says they cannot sin because they are born of God, that is what he means. He is not talking about patterns. He is talking about eternal life. That which is born of God cannot be corrupted, cannot sin, and cannot die.

This was not the life that was breathed into Adam. Adam was created by God. He was not begotten of Him.

 

Seems like I came to the wrong door. Thought it's gonna be like what a person could do (and talk about it) to be more of "the person that God would like you to be". Rather seems like people here are fighting about who is righteous before God in ways other than serving Him in the way that He prescribes in His Holy Word, the Bible. No rules or regulations set by men should hold preference over what the Bible prescribes men should live by and proclaim His Kingdom, whatever denomination you belong to!

 

Yea, you being a 'Pentecostal Protestant' means you're supposed to be posting in the 'Other Denominations Forum', not here on Baptist debate Forums.

 

That is incorrect, Aaron, I have maintained that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are God.

Singular.

The tome is a tomb for your doctrine.

You make Him three persons (and the lowercase is intentional) by equating Him with your understanding of what a person is.

So address what I said...don't just simply spout another opinion, which like most of your doctrine...is quite erroneous.


God bless.

 

I actually agree with this.

You are correct that the infighting seen here is repulsive, and I have done my best to try to get a few here to recognize the disruptive nature of their interaction with other believers.

And in fact the rules of men would be an improvement to what we see on a regular basis here by certain members.

Nevertheless, welcome to the forum, I hope your time here will be blessed and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.


God bless.

 

Once again we see the typical pattern of not even bothering to quote what this fellow thinks he is addressing.

Just want to point out that the pattern is seen in the actual passage I quoted in relation to this teaching.

You are once again illustrating why you never progress in any discussion you are ever involved in.

Now go back and quote what I said, quote the Scripture that is relevant to what I said, and let's see you deny that John is speaking of a pattern of life. The two are contrasted, and it is not teaching in regards to the physical life that believers never sin.

Did I deny that in regards to John 11?

Like all false teachers the only way you can seem to be seen credible in a debate is by not presenting what your antagonist actually said, and arguing something that your antagonist hasn't said.

Quote me, Aaron, and the Scripture, and the comments in the context they were given.

You won't, and your buddies won't, because it exposes your error by direct address of what you do say.

Where have I said anything that denies this truth?

Quote me.

Where have I said anything that denies this truth?

Quote me.

But it isn't what you teach...that those born of God never sin.

It is speaking of a pattern of sin in the life of a professing believer. This indicates that no such event ever took place. This is contrasted with those who do continually sin.

Just as every false teacher is exposed by his contradicting doctrine, you are exposed for teaching false doctrine, because you have John teaching contrary to what he has already stated, which is also taught by every Bible Writer, which is...born again believers are going to sin, and when they do...they must confess that sin. You miss the fact that they "purify themselves," which is only confused with the Washing of Regeneration by false teachers and babes.

That is why you won't quote me...because I pointed this out.

Here it is again:


John is speaking of a pattern of sin:


1 John 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


The two are contrasted and John does not establish a temporal sinless nature, but contrasts those who "purify themselves" with those who commit sin. If one is already pure, he need not purify himself, right? God is pure, not us.

John makes it clear in chapter 1:


1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Again, John is not contradicting himself, but is contrasting the patterns of two very different types of people. One who purifies himself, and one who commits sin.


And I will point out that I let the Scriptures speak for themselves, so your excuse for not actually addressing what I have said is a lie only you believe. At leas, if you are going to respond...actually quote what is said.

Now, here is the point you are confusing, want to actually address it this time? Instead of simply offering opinions formed in your inability to understand what John and Christ teach concerning eternal life and sin?

No, Aaron...we will not be confessing sin in eternity.

One will not be instructed to "purify themselves when they leave their physical body.

Wake up.

From an eternal perspective, I agree.

The problem is...John is not speaking about the eternal perspective.

You are butchering context.

Everyone that is born again is created by God, Aaron.

That is why we are called new creations, lol.

I would present you with a few verses concerning creation, but it would likely fall on deaf ears and blind eyes, as everything usually does for you.

If you want to understand your salvation, take a look at what kind of new creature those who are born again actually are.

You deny Scripture itself in your false teachings:


Luke 3:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


Here is your teaching:

This is why you are afraid to quote what I actually say, because you know it exposes your error.


God bless.

 

lol

God bless.

 

Darrell, I'm not going to go point by point. I get to the heart of the matter. Makes for shorter posts and more likely to be read.

Anyone read Darrell's tomes?




Anyone?



Anyone?



If you would like me to address a specific point of your argument, state it in less than two hundred words, and I will be happy to engage you.