1st Corinthians 3 and Carnality

revmwc · Oct 13, 2015

This is a spinoff from another thread on what Paul is stating about carnality and the believer. Someone said I twisted the words of Calvin, and Henry from what their commentaries tell us. So comments on their commentaries:

Here is Calvin from his commentary on 1 Corinthians 3 please show how you believe I Twisted his words:
Calvin 1 Corinthians 3 states this:
"Hence, with the view of beating down so much the better their insolence, he declares, that they belong to the company of those who, stupefied by carnal sense, are not prepared to receive the spiritual wisdom of God. He softens down, it is true, the harshness of his reproach by calling them brethren, but at the same time he brings it forward expressly as a matter of reproach against them, that their minds were suffocated with the darkness of the flesh to such a degree that it formed a hindrance to his preaching among them. What sort of sound judgment then must they have, when they are not fit and prepared as yet even for hearing! He does not mean, however, that they were altogether carnal, so as to have not one spark of the Spirit of God — but that they had still greatly too much of carnal sense, so that the flesh prevailed over the Spirit, and did as it were drown out his light. Hence, although they were not altogether destitute of grace, yet, as they had more of the flesh than of the Spirit, they are on that account termed carnal This sufficiently appears from what he immediately adds — that they were babes in Christ; for they would not have been babes had they not been begotten, and that begetting is from the Spirit of God.

Babes in Christ This term is sometimes taken in a good sense, as it is by Peter, who exhorts us to be like new-born babes, (1 Peter 2:2,) and in that saying of Christ,

Unless ye become as these little children,
ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God, (Luke 18:17.)

Here, however, it is taken in a bad sense, as referring to the understanding. For we must be children in malice, but not in understanding, as he says afterwards in 1 Corinthians 14:20, — a distinction which removes all occasion of doubt as to the meaning. To this also there is a corresponding passage in Ephesians 4:14."

Then Henry:

Matthew Henry states in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 3:
"Paul blames the Corinthians for their weakness and nonproficiency. Those who are sanctified are so only in part: there is still room for growth and increase both in grace and knowledge, 2 Peter 3:18. Those who through divine grace are renewed to a spiritual life may yet in many things be defective. The apostle tells them he could not speak to them as unto spiritual men, but as unto carnal men, as to babes in Christ, 1 Corinthians 3:1. They were so far from forming their maxims and measures upon the ground of divine revelation, and entering into the spirit of the gospel, that is was but too evident they were much under the command of carnal and corrupt affections. They were still mere babes in Christ. They had received some of the first principles of Christianity, but had not grown up to maturity of understanding in them, or of faith and holiness; and yet it is plain, from several passages in this epistle, that the Corinthians were very proud of their wisdom and knowledge....He blames them for their carnality, and mentions their contention and discord about their ministers as evidence of it: For you are yet carnal; for whereas there are among you envyings, and strifes, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Corinthians 3:3. They had mutual emulations, and quarrels, and factions among them, upon the account of their ministers, while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos, 1 Corinthians 3:4. These were proofs of their being carnal, that fleshly interests and affections too much swayed them. Note, Contentions and quarrels about religion are sad evidences of remaining carnality. True religion makes men peaceable and not contentious. Factious spirits act upon human principles, not upon principles of true religion; they are guided by their own pride and passions, and not by the rules of Christianity: Do you not walk as men? Note, It is to be lamented that many who should walk as Christians, that is, above the common rate of men, do indeed walk as men, live and act too much like other men."

So comments, by the way the term babes was also questioned as to knowing how old the church at Corinth was at this time here is what I could find:

Paul spent what was beliveved to be 18 months in Corinth when first establishing the church on the second missionary journey believed to be from A.D. 49-52, the book of 1 Corinthians was written in what is belived to be A.D. 53-54 so the believers there had been saved approximately 4 years. With 18 months under the apostle plus anther 20-30 months after that. Paul had to write them and called them babes. I guess a babe in Christ could be 4 years old. I think there are many babes in Christ who have been saved over 10 years and failed to grow and mature. But that would make many of them carnal.

So what are these men saying about what Paul wrought?

Darrell C · Oct 14, 2015

revmwc said:
So what are these men saying about what Paul wrought?

While both quote could be examined in detail to give a thorough commentary on their commentary, lol, it seems pretty clear that an overview of the commentary would be seen as sound. I think both men understood progressive sanctification (though I would likely take issue with Henry's statement in that he does not distinguish between positional and progressive sanctification, which should have been done to avoid confusion as to his views on that, and to clarify the focus of the commentary (Those who are sanctified are so only in part: there is still room for growth and increase both in grace and knowledge)), and it would be clear they understood the thrust of Paul's teaching here. The Corinthians were behaving like babes, and to be honest, even if there were only four years involved, we take into account the historical context and remember...these men were in a period where there was an accelerated pace in terms of growth in the Body as a whole.

Paul stood at an advantage when saved for the singular reason that he was not just well acquainted with the Hebrew Scriptures, but received direct revelation from God Himself. The Corinthians stood at a disadvantage because they did not all come from a culture with the religious indoctrination we see in the Hebrew culture, and many were likely to have been idolaters.

And Paul does not see this as an excuse.

revmwc said:
So what are these men saying about what Paul wrought?

Again, I think both commentators bring out what Paul himself expected from what he wrought. Paul can be seen to take a position that their behavior was contradictory to what he felt it should have been.

So I do not see how you could be charged with "twisting" these commentaries in a discussion which has a context of the fact that believers can sin, and, have behavior that is worldly.

God bless.

agedman · Oct 14, 2015

As you remember, I posted a thread some time back in which I shared that "sanctification" is not progressive. One is or isn't. That the Sanctification is not the current that flows through the wire but the conduit that God establishes in the believer in which the current then can be routed. The conduit doesn't grow or change, but remains.

What does occur (and some would call "progressive sanctification") is a growth by the believer in the things of Christ - a building up of the defenses, the knowledge, the outward appearance and inward desire to be "like Him."

What a person of the carnal has is ignored the messages sent on the conduit, being distracted by the things and thinking of this world. But the believer, still has the conduit.

The conduit illustration may be weak, but it is all that comes to mind at this time.

DHK · Oct 14, 2015

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

(ESV) Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

If we were already "dead to sin," Paul wouldn't have commanded us to put to death "the members of our body" which is governed by our "carnal nature." It is something we must do every day. Put it to death, as it says so clearly in the ESV. Paul is writing to mature Christians.

agedman · Oct 14, 2015

DHK said:
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

(ESV) Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

If we were already "dead to sin," Paul wouldn't have commanded us to put to death "the members of our body" which is governed by our "carnal nature." It is something we must do every day. Put it to death, as it says so clearly in the ESV. Paul is writing to mature Christians.

I like the NASB version better.

It states:
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

The reason why I like it better is that when one "put(s) to death" there is perhaps the idea that there is a progress in the "put(ting) to death." While one is putting the eyes to death, the ears may be wide awake, or the feelings, or the smells. So, some would go about trying to hold the balloons of death under the water hoping one doesn't pop up to the surface. Sounds silly, I know, but there are those who would die in part, and never get to the whole.

When one uses the word "consider" it is a done deal. It is not just an effort, it is a statement of fact. One is relate to the body of flesh as if it is dead already.

I know this is a small nuance, but I thought it is worth considering, "consider."

Darrell C · Oct 15, 2015

agedman said:
As you remember, I posted a thread some time back in which I shared that "sanctification" is not progressive. One is or isn't. That the Sanctification is not the current that flows through the wire but the conduit that God establishes in the believer in which the current then can be routed. The conduit doesn't grow or change, but remains.

What does occur (and some would call "progressive sanctification") is a growth by the believer in the things of Christ - a building up of the defenses, the knowledge, the outward appearance and inward desire to be "like Him."

What a person of the carnal has is ignored the messages sent on the conduit, being distracted by the things and thinking of this world. But the believer, still has the conduit.

The conduit illustration may be weak, but it is all that comes to mind at this time.

That there is a progressive Sanctification, as well as a Positional Sanctification seems to be a fairly easily established Doctrine/s.

Progressive:

1 Thessalonians 5:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Positional:

Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1 Corinthians 6:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

When we are positionally sanctified (set apart unto God through Christ) we are still in need of the cleansing of sin in our daily conversation. As we grow in Christ we are set apart from a temporal perspective to fulfill God's will for our lives.

That we will sin after salvation shouldn't be something anyone would debate, most of us are honest enough to admit this. But, I have run across people who think they have attained to a state of sinless perfection in the flesh, which simply doesn't correlate to the many teachings where we are told...not to sin, lol.

While we do not find the words positional or progressive, we can see a general principle set forth in the New Testament whereby we can see differing levels of maturity. Babes, little children, young men, and fathers are a few terms that describe those stages. Paul equates immaturity with babes, and calls them carnal, worldly. But his teaching was for the purpose that they would recognize their error...and grow (up).

God bless.

agedman · Oct 16, 2015

Darrell C said:
That there is a progressive Sanctification, as well as a Positional Sanctification seems to be a fairly easily established Doctrine/s.

Perhaps, but the typical believer is not very familiar with the distinction between the two, and OFTEN mixes the blessedness of one with the work of the Holy Spirit urging the believer to grow up.

Darrell C said:
Progressive:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is not progressive. It is not the believer doing the work, and God never does things half way. In God's frame one is holy (sanctified) or not. Those sanctified (holy) are His sheep. That is the statement of the verse you posted. It shows the sanctification is God's responsibility, the preservation as man's. But note: The sanctification is NOT the blameless preservation. They are two different items.

Darrell C said:

2 Timothy 2:19-21

Click to expand...

Darrell C said:
King James Version (KJV)

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

You seem to consider sanctification as something that grows and matures. It is not.

Another word for sanctification is "Holy." One is not half way holy.

I illustrate - know that the illustration is merely a tool and not a statement of faith.

A man goes to a typical car lot. Purchases a car. What is the one item that distinguishes that car for all others not only on the lot, but in the world? The title.

That is what Sanctification is. It is "re-title-ing" the person from heathen to believer. The car has no choice in the matter, it is totally the work of God.

Darrell C said:
Positional:
...
When we are positionally sanctified (set apart unto God through Christ) we are still in need of the cleansing of sin in our daily conversation. As we grow in Christ we are set apart from a temporal perspective to fulfill God's will for our lives.

BE CAREFUL with the common term "set apart." It is not as if I move a lamp from one part of the room to another. Rather, it is an accounting term.

For Example:
The typical church doesn't have many accounts, but many parts of the budget. When they need to adjust the budget they do not typically take the money out of one account and place it in a separate account. Rather, the book keeping makes the ledger adjustments. The money doesn't move, it is re-apportioned or re-titled for another purpose. That is the work of God in Sanctification. Again, he makes the believer, Holy.

Darrell C said:
While we do not find the words positional or progressive, we can see a general principle set forth in the New Testament whereby we can see differing levels of maturity. Babes, little children, young men, and fathers are a few terms that describe those stages. Paul equates immaturity with babes, and calls them carnal, worldly. But his teaching was for the purpose that they would recognize their error...and grow (up).

God bless.

It is true, one cannot find "progressive sanctification" in the Scriptures. However, there is immaturity and maturity.

My son grew in wisdom and knowledge of both God and man, and holds great responsibility as a result. He didn't progressively sanctify (become more holy), he matured.

If one would merely replace the word sanctification with Holy in the Scriptures, it would make the meaning far more clear.

There is not a single verse of Scriptures in which the person "progresses" into being holy. Either they are or are not.

However, there is a lot to say about those who don't grow up! They are sanctified, but have remained using very little of what God conduits or channels to them.

Would that people would NEVER use "progressive sanctification" for it is really not a correct term.

It is far better for folks to comprehend they need to grow up! That has not only the real intent behind the punch Paul gave to the recipients of his letters, but is far more exact to the Scriptures.

Imo, the term "progressive sanctification" came about as a result of political need to not offend the high dollar keepers of the church. Those who the "lord of the manor" was the one who paid the bills.
Again, that is merely my own opinion.

Darrell C · Oct 16, 2015

agedman said:
Darrell C said: ↑
That there is a progressive Sanctification, as well as a Positional Sanctification seems to be a fairly easily established Doctrine/s.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but the typical believer is not very familiar with the distinction between the two, and OFTEN mixes the blessedness of one with the work of the Holy Spirit urging the believer to grow up.

You do realize you acknowledge Progressive and Positional Sanctification at the beginning of your response only to deny Progressive Sanctification by the end of it, right?

And you define Progressive Sanctification very well:

agedman said:
the work of the Holy Spirit urging the believer to grow up.

agedman said:
↑
Progressive:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is not progressive.

It is, unless you think Paul was not sure that God had sanctified these believers fully in the eternal sense.

We would have to suppose that here Paul is hopeful the recipients would be saved. Just think about that AM.

agedman said:
It is not the believer doing the work,

And this is probably why you reject Progressive Sanctification, because you think it is something that only the believer does. THat is not the case. While we are dependent on God to grow, we too have responsibilities.

Here is an example:

Hebrews 5:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Progressive Sanctification is dependent on diligence, as well as the direction and instruction of the Lord.

agedman said:
and God never does things half way.

So believers are immediately sinless and walk perfectly? Mature?

No, lol, and unless I am mistaken...haven't you been denying that view?

agedman said:
In God's frame one is holy (sanctified) or not.

There is the eternal perspective in which we have positional sanctification in view, and the temporal, right here in unredeemed flesh, where progressive sanctification is taking place.

agedman said:
Those sanctified (holy) are His sheep. That is the statement of the verse you posted.

It's not me you have a problem with, it's Paul and the Holy Ghost. While you will have to wait to correct Paul, you can speak with the Holy Ghost about this

Look at it again:

1 Thessalonians 5:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If one is not sanctified wholly, he is______________?

Paul's prayer is that they be sanctified in completion, which from the eternal perspective is already completed. You are suggesting Paul is in doubt as the accomplished sanctification of the believer.

Here is another example of Progressive SAnctification, this time from a temporal perspective:

1 Peter 1:13-16

King James Version (KJV)

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Continued...

Darrell C · Oct 16, 2015

agedman said:
It shows the sanctification is God's responsibility, the preservation as man's.

It show's Paul's desire that God sanctify them holy in their unredeemed flesh, that is what is in view. It is not talking about Positional Sanctification, because makes it pretty clear elsewhere he has no doubts as to that:

1 Corinthians 6:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

agedman said:
But note: The sanctification is NOT the blameless preservation. They are two different items.

This is a little confusing, which may because you have acknowledged as well as denied the same concept.

agedman said:
↑
2 Timothy 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You seem to consider sanctification as something that grows and matures.

On the contrary, it is the believer that grows and matures. We have a great testimony of this Bible Basic in the New Testament.

You are thinking of our position in Christ, rather than the growth process we all go through itself.

Another example:

1 John 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

agedman said:
It is not.

It is.

agedman said:
Another word for sanctification is "Holy." One is not half way holy.

Actually, it is the word, lol.

And that we are made holy as we grow goes without saying, though I have been.

agedman said:
I illustrate - know that the illustration is merely a tool and not a statement of faith.

A man goes to a typical car lot. Purchases a car. What is the one item that distinguishes that car for all others not only on the lot, but in the world? The title.

That is what Sanctification is. It is "re-title-ing" the person from heathen to believer. The car has no choice in the matter, it is totally the work of God.

That might be used to represent Positional Sanctification, but the car, in a realistic analogy, doesn't come from a car lot, but is found on the side of the road, beat up and in need of repair. It is F.ound O.n R.oad D.ead. lol

The first thing we do with this car is get it running again. Then, after it is running we can make repairs and wash it as needed. That is where Progressive Sanctification comes in.

agedman said:
↑
Positional:
...
When we are positionally sanctified (set apart unto God through Christ) we are still in need of the cleansing of sin in our daily conversation. As we grow in Christ we are set apart from a temporal perspective to fulfill God's will for our lives.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

BE CAREFUL with the common term "set apart." It is not as if I move a lamp from one part of the room to another. Rather, it is an accounting term.

It has nothing to do with "moving," my friend, it has everything to do with something being made holy for a purpose.

Another example:

2 Timothy 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

If a man therefore purge himself from these...then he shall be a different vessel from the lowly vessels of dishonor...sanctified.

Continued...

Darrell C · Oct 16, 2015

agedman said:
For Example:
The typical church doesn't have many accounts, but many parts of the budget. When they need to adjust the budget they do not typically take the money out of one account and place it in a separate account. Rather, the book keeping makes the ledger adjustments. The money doesn't move, it is re-apportioned or re-titled for another purpose. That is the work of God in Sanctification. Again, he makes the believer, Holy.

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how you see this as relevant, sorry.

agedman said:
↑
While we do not find the words positional or progressive, we can see a general principle set forth in the New Testament whereby we can see differing levels of maturity. Babes, little children, young men, and fathers are a few terms that describe those stages. Paul equates immaturity with babes, and calls them carnal, worldly. But his teaching was for the purpose that they would recognize their error...and grow (up).

God bless.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It is true, one cannot find "progressive sanctification" in the Scriptures. However, there is immaturity and maturity.

And that is what is in view, Agedman.

agedman said:
My son grew in wisdom and knowledge of both God and man, and holds great responsibility as a result. He didn't progressively sanctify (become more holy), he matured.

Same thing. The maturity is a result of holiness. You would agree he is more holy now than when he was a young child, no?

agedman said:
If one would merely replace the word sanctification with Holy in the Scriptures, it would make the meaning far more clear.

Not entirely, because we see in the Old Testament the foundational framework for sanctification.

Example:

Exodus 19:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And let the priests also, which come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.

There is a connotation of separation here, and that separation can be seen to refer to a number of things. What someone is set apart from, and what someone is set apart to.

Sanctification is about being holy, and being made holy, and being declared holy, but, we also understand that there is a separation from or to something involved.

agedman said:
There is not a single verse of Scriptures in which the person "progresses" into being holy. Either they are or are not.

I have shown you several. let me know if you are still not convinced.

Romans 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The Lord has quite a bit of work to do after we are saved, no-one is born again wholly sanctified as Paul desires of the Thessalonians.

agedman said:
However, there is a lot to say about those who don't grow up! They are sanctified, but have remained using very little of what God conduits or channels to them.

Again, you are referring to Positional Sanctification and trying to replace Progressive Sanctification with maturity. Mature believers can still sin. Most will grow in stages, and most are never fully mature in every area of growth.

agedman said:
Would that people would NEVER use "progressive sanctification" for it is really not a correct term.

It is the best term we have available in the English Language for the process by which believers are made holy and acceptable unto the Lord. Progressive Sanctification involves both the efforts of God and the efforts of the believer. The "Let go and Let God" folks among us will grow at a slower rate than those of us that recognize that God has always commanded His People to live holy lives.

That is just a consistent Bible Basic, my friend.

agedman said:
It is far better for folks to comprehend they need to grow up! That has not only the real intent behind the punch Paul gave to the recipients of his letters, but is far more exact to the Scriptures.

And the best way to teach them, Agedman, is to teach them to understand that they are being made holy as they grow.

And this is the problem that arises when this issue is confused for new believers, as well as older, more mature believers...there is a forgetfulness of God's Sovereignty over all aspects of salvation, which includes not just the Eternal Declaration of the Saint, but the daily conversation of the Saint as well.

Hebrews 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

agedman said:
Imo, the term "progressive sanctification" came about as a result of political need to not offend the high dollar keepers of the church.

It comes from the pages of Scripture, my friend. I have no idea what you are talking about here, lol.

agedman said:
Those who the "lord of the manor" was the one who paid the bills.
Again, that is merely my own opinion.

Duly noted.

Thanks for the response.

God bless.

agedman · Oct 16, 2015

Like YOU admitted, there is NO PLACE in scriptures were the term "progressive sanctification" is found.

Sanctify is NEVER used as progressive, but refers to the change of state, or re - title of the person from unholy to holy.

What nearly every "progressive sanctification" advocate does is occupies much words trying to argue that there is something unique or special about a person maturing or not maturing in the things of God and justify the use of the term "progressive sanctification."

That maturing isn't anywhere labeled or even implied as "Sanctification" in the Scriptures - as you have admitted by stating that "progressive sanctification" is not a word found in the Scriptures.

Therefore, there is NO "progressive sanctification." One cannot be half, quarter, eighth "holy."

Sad that you want to argue over a word that is used inappropriately, rather than the concept of maturing as a believer which is far more the appropriate words to use.

Replace "progressive sanctification" with "mature and maturing" and we just might be in agreement.

By the way, have you noticed that when I quote you, I shorten the space, and use the indent to set the Scriptures as noticed? You really would have much more reading of your posts if you would use the indent feature and keep the fount setting on four (4).

Darrell C · Oct 17, 2015

agedman said:
Like YOU admitted, there is NO PLACE in scriptures were the term "progressive sanctification" is found.

The term, yes, the teaching, well...you have numerous quotes from Scripture which show that we are being made Holy in our daily conversation.

Another example:

Romans 8:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now how many Saints do you know that replicate Christ in their lives? Would you place varying degrees of replication to the believers you know? Are there believers that you think present Christ better than some?

Now let's expand the text and put this back in context:

Romans 8:26-28

King James Version (KJV)

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Now our proof-text again:

Romans 8:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

No doubt about it, the Saints have infirmities that have to be dealt with, and as they are dealt with we call this being conformed to the image of Christ.

That is what we would designate the maturing of your son to be. Does he at this point in His life present a more Christ-like figure than when he was a child?

agedman said:
Sanctify is NEVER used as progressive, but refers to the change of state, or re - title of the person from unholy to holy.

And that has been dismissed in the previous posts.

It is just basic to our understanding that we are made holy as we grow, and that is separate from the Positional Sanctification we have which is the declaration of God in regards to our standing before Him.

agedman said:
What nearly every "progressive sanctification" advocate does is occupies much words trying to argue that there is something unique or special about a person maturing or not maturing in the things of God and justify the use of the term "progressive sanctification."

My commentary was limited, and supported by Scripture itself.

And seriously?

agedman said:
...trying to argue that there is something unique or special about a person maturing or not maturing in the things of God and justify the use of the term "progressive sanctification."

Seriously?

You do not see that there is something unique and special about a person maturing or not maturing in the things of God?

The writer of Hebrews did, I already showed you that.

You complain about the Scripture being large, lol, but you do not absorb what the teaching of the Scripture provided actually states.

Shall I also complain that the vague references to Scripture we often see in posts impedes my ability to deal with the references?

I have told you before, we need to quote the Scripture to show that the points we seek to make have a Biblical Basis, and at that point our antagonist can address the Scripture.

Have you noticed how often people do that? Not very often, eh? Notice how threads drop off when an erroneous view is confronted with the very Word of God?

Where is your address of the Scripture I presented to you, Agedman?

This...

agedman said:
You really would have much more reading of your posts if you would use the indent feature and keep the fount setting on four (4).

...will not suffice.

I could us a text this small and you still have no means to object to the Progressive Sanctification taught in Scripture.

Continued...

Darrell C · Oct 17, 2015

agedman said:
That maturing isn't anywhere labeled or even implied as "Sanctification" in the Scriptures - as you have admitted by stating that "progressive sanctification" is not a word found in the Scriptures.

At least I can be seen to remain consistent in my teaching.

agedman said:
Perhaps, but the typical believer is not very familiar with the distinction between the two, and OFTEN mixes the blessedness of one with the work of the Holy Spirit urging the believer to grow up.

agedman said:
It is true, one cannot find "progressive sanctification" in the Scriptures. However, there is immaturity and maturity.

In the first quote you acknowledge Progressive Sanctification and rightly define it as maturing.

In the second you deny it.

Progressive Sanctification is indeed maturing, growing in Christ, putting away sins, being cleansed from sin.

Here is another example:

1 John 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

What is the Progressive Sanctification contrasted with?

Not walking in the light. Not saying we have no sin as believers. Not deceiving ourselves on that point. Not failing or refusing to confess our sins.

That is summed up in the next verse:

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Denying sin in our lives evidences the Word of God is not in us. This is spoken to believers, and while we could see this as having application to unbelievers, it also applies to believers, John stating they are not conveying that which Scripture teaches.

agedman said:
Therefore, there is NO "progressive sanctification." One cannot be half, quarter, eighth "holy."

Again you fail to distinguish between Positional and Progressive Sanctification, which is why you have a hard time in a thread dealing with the question as to whether Christians can be carnal or not.

The former is a set declaration of God, the latter refers to the work He is doing in our lives as He removes sin.

Did you stop sinning when you were saved, Agedman? Has your walk been one of identifying and seeking to remove sin from your life, pleading to God for forgiveness when you failed and cleansing in totality of that sin in your life?

Welcome to the Family of God, brother. That's all of us.

Continued...

agedman · Oct 17, 2015

Darrell,

Why do you insist on saying something is "taught in Scripture" when it isn't?

Growing to MATURITY as we BOTH agree is taught in Scripture.

The TERM "progressive sanctification" is a WRONG TERM!

That is my argument. But you consistently have missed the point.

The word "sanctify" means "holy" - one cannot be part holy or grow into holy. It doesn't work.

To put sanctification with the word "progressive" is wrong.

But, for some reason, you are missing the nuance of what I have posted.

On the other matter about the layout of your posts, I suggested the font and alignment change so we all could read your posts and not be lost in the empty space that increase the actual post to multiple pages. It would actually aid in our understanding because the train of thought would not be "lost in space."
Usually it takes nearly twice as long to read your posts than anyone else that posts because of the larger font and the spacing you use especially when printing Scriptures.

If you want to add emphasis to separate a portion, indent and use bold or underline in the indented Scriptures. The italics really isn't noticed when speed reading a post. You could experiment with colors in the indented to highlight various aspects of connected thoughts. (See how the different emphasis caught your eye while you were reading? It really works well.)

I am merely trying to help you by having more folks actually read what you write - isn't that what you really want, too?
The font on the posts seems to default to 4 (the old web default seemed to be 3). Once in a long while I have to resize the font when copying something and pasting it in a post. If you need doing any of this, let me or a moderator know, and they will be happy to assist.

Double space is used between paragraphs (as if writing a formal business letter).

Only attempting to help.

Darrell C · Oct 17, 2015

agedman said:
Sad that you want to argue over a word that is used inappropriately, rather than the concept of maturing as a believer which is far more the appropriate words to use.

There is no argument.

Progressive Sanctification is taught in Scripture. It simply identifies the cleansing of sin and conforming to the image of Christ which takes place in all of our lives as sons of God.

agedman said:
Replace "progressive sanctification" with "mature and maturing" and we just might be in agreement.

You even acknowledge it by saying "maturing."

You don't think part of the maturing we do involves being made holier than we were when we were saved?

That maturity involves more than just a temporal holiness, we see it involves knowledge of God as well. And it is maturing in knowledge which helps us to mature in general. We cannot do the will of God if we do not know the will of God. The Will of God is found in Scripture.

Did you know when you were saved that it was the will of God that you not even hate your enemy, but love them? That you were guilty of murder when you hated someone without cause? Have you never been guilty of that in your walk with the Lord?

I know I have.

agedman said:
By the way, have you noticed that when I quote you, I shorten the space, and use the indent to set the Scriptures as noticed?

I do not cater to the antagonists I debate with, my friend, I simply debate as I am led of God.

Who reads what is not my concern, I could care less if not the first person reads what I post. I am not here to glorify myself, but Christ.

The complaints that arise usually arise when an antagonist doesn't want to actually address the points made. "The posts are too long!" So I break them up, and still many posts go unanswered. "The Scripture is too large!" And many points made with those Scriptures go unanswered. Then come the personality attacks. "You have an inflated ego!"

On the contrary, if I wanted to feed my ego I would set up shop right here at BB and roost here. But, I do not do that, because there are many forums out there I want to visit in the time I have. I am not here to make friends, or garner the appreciation of the people here. If I wanted to do that, then it is doubtful I would consistently take on people with whom I have differing views. I would constantly be patting people on the back. I would never confront people about their error and endanger the "friendships" I was seeking to make.
Now let's look at your "advice" in regards to my posting...what can I accomplish by heeding it? A larger audience? Doesn't matter to me, I will let the posts accomplish what I feel God means for them to accomplish. Friends? Agreement from others? Likes?

It's about the doctrine, Agedman, and only the doctrine. The "friends" we make in Doctrinal Discussion and Debate forums will soon show the quality of their friendship if you disagree with them, or point out an error in their doctrine. You can be in agreement on all points but one, but all it takes is that one for that friendship to be in jeopardy.

agedman said:
You really would have much more reading of your posts if you would use the indent feature and keep the fount setting on four (4).

I only need those God directs to the posts to be reading, and usually that is the antagonist in view.

Right now that is you, and it seems that you have, in part anyway...read enough.

But when you want to show why the Scripture I have posted does not teach Progressive Sanctification, feel free. I am just about at a point where I will have to be moving on, but I will await your response to the Scripture provided you in the previous points, and, as we thresh it out, my friend, I am confident that we can put to bed the dispute concerning whether Christians can be carnal or not.

One last point in regards to how I post, in regards specifically about enlarging the Scripture. My advice to you, and everyone here, is that it is critical not to just give vague reference to a Scriptural Basis for a point (unless it has been established in the discussion where reference is understood by the participating antagonists), but to quote Scripture itself, and enlarging emphasizes the implicit point "I am not the one saying this...Scripture is!" lol

No-one will ever waste time with my posts picking apart a Scripture reference. The points, perhaps, but the Scripture, no. This can be achieved using the same font size, of course, but, in all of my posts the Scripture takes center stage, my points are secondary. The Scriptures speak for themselves, and posting the Scriptures should be enough to make a point in dispute.

God bless.

agedman · Oct 17, 2015

Darrell,

Again, you missed two items.

One, the Scriptures teach the believer is to mature in Christ, to grow up. In that matter we agree.

However, the Scriptures do not even come close to the definition of sanctification being used as progressive. Again, growing up does not make one more holy. It makes one more able to understand the mysteries of God, the enemies plotting, and the character of living. The believer is sanctified - Holy. It is THE ONLY use found in Scriptures. There is NEVER a time when sanctification is aligned with any "progression" or steps to making one more holy.

Perhaps the greatest gauge given showing the steps to maturity is found in 2 Peter. Through out that list of building blocks, there is never a time when "sanctification" is the issue. It is a progress of maturity, of growing up.

HUMANS have attached "progressive" to sanctification, and it is a wrong application of the words.

I am NOT arguing about the teaching, I am arguing about the term used.

Second, I posted the note about the format of your posts not to bolster your ego. I could care less about that.

I posted so that more understanding and insight could be gathered by the readers from what you wrote. That is, after all, why writers write. For their readers.

HOW you write is as important as what you write. If the readers, in wadding through the format, loose the importance of the point you are making, the writing is worthless. It may contain great wisdom, but if the communication is missing, it is nothing but a irritating gong as Paul might say.

It is up to you. If you want the readers to be able to gather the information you post, then put it in a format that will allow them to do so.

I gave suggestions not to be critical, but to encourage.

However, your boasting of forums, friends, and such gives me enough insight to realize you probably will ignore this advice.

So take both points as you desire, but I offer them to you to consider.

DHK · Oct 18, 2015

agedman said:
Why do you insist on saying something is "taught in Scripture" when it isn't?

Growing to MATURITY as we BOTH agree is taught in Scripture.

The TERM "progressive sanctification" is a WRONG TERM!

That is my argument. But you consistently have missed the point.

You agree on "maturity." But if you were using a King James Version, like I do, you don't find the word "mature," or "maturity" in the Bible. One has to go to other translations to find that word.
The same is true of "progressive." You don't find it in the KJV. But you do find the concept in the Greek.

Sanctification is a noun. But it also has its verb form "to sanctify." Sanctify yourselves. Be sanctified.
Sometimes that verb is in a continuous or "progressive" tense.
We call it "Christian growth." We grow to maturity or in sanctification.

Eph 4:11-16
4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
(16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The idea of sanctification is here. It is personal growth, growing up into him.
Sanctification is related to the word "holy" or set apart, which is also related to the word "saint."

The rest of chapter four teaches one how to walk a holy/sanctified, walk that is set apart for God.
For example:

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

agedman · Oct 18, 2015

DHK said:
You agree on "maturity." But if you were using a King James Version, like I do, you don't find the word "mature," or "maturity" in the Bible. One has to go to other translations to find that word.
The same is true of "progressive." You don't find it in the KJV. But you do find the concept in the Greek.

Sanctification is a noun. But it also has its verb form "to sanctify." Sanctify yourselves. Be sanctified.
Sometimes that verb is in a continuous or "progressive" tense.
We call it "Christian growth." We grow to maturity or in sanctification.

Eph 4:11-16
4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
(16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The idea of sanctification is here. It is personal growth, growing up into him.
Sanctification is related to the word "holy" or set apart, which is also related to the word "saint."

The rest of chapter four teaches one how to walk a holy/sanctified, walk that is set apart for God.
For example:

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

The idea of growing up, maturing, is here, but it is humans that want to make sanctification like a rheostat.

Reminds me of the IFB world were people were not "right with God if ..." and yet the preaching could be full of excess, and even foul language.

Certainly sanctify is a noun. But it is NEVER used in Scriptures to indicate someone who is progressing. Rather, it is used as a state one is to be, not become in a gradual manner. We are to be holy, not gradually get that way. We are to be sanctified, not gradually get that way.

Sanctification is or it is not.

Therefore, the USE of the term is inappropriate.

I know it is popular, I know most scholars use the term.

What I also am pointing out is that if folks would use mature, and grow up, - as the Apostles did use - rather than some "professional language" the listeners just might get the idea that they need to take the teaching seriously.

Martin Marprelate · Oct 18, 2015

agedman said:
Certainly sanctify is a noun.

Not to be picky, but it's a verb.

But it is NEVER used in Scriptures to indicate someone who is progressing. Rather, it is used as a state one is to be, not become in a gradual manner. We are to be holy, not gradually get that way. We are to be sanctified, not gradually get that way.

Heb. 10:14, NKJV. 'For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.'
The verb is Present Tense, signifying continuous action. Certainly in some verses (eg. Heb. 10:10) it refers to a completed work, but not always q.e.d.

DHK · Oct 18, 2015

agedman said:
The idea of growing up, maturing, is here, but it is humans that want to make sanctification like a rheostat.

Reminds me of the IFB world were people were not "right with God if ..." and yet the preaching could be full of excess, and even foul language.

Certainly sanctify is a noun. But it is NEVER used in Scriptures to indicate someone who is progressing. Rather, it is used as a state one is to be, not become in a gradual manner. We are to be holy, not gradually get that way. We are to be sanctified, not gradually get that way.

Sanctification is or it is not.

Therefore, the USE of the term is inappropriate.

I know it is popular, I know most scholars use the term.

What I also am pointing out is that if folks would use mature, and grow up, - as the Apostles did use - rather than some "professional language" the listeners just might get the idea that they need to take the teaching seriously.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
--How does Jesus sanctify himself?

Barnes explains it this way:

Sanctify them - This word means to render pure, or to cleanse from sins, 1Th_5:23; 1Co_6:11. Sanctification in the heart of a Christian is progressive. It consists in his becoming more like God and less attached to the world; in his getting the ascendency over evil thoughts, and passions, and impure desires; and in his becoming more and more weaned from earthly objects, and attached to those things which are unseen and eternal. The word also means “to consecrate, to set apart to a holy office or purpose.” See Joh_17:19; also the notes at Joh_10:36. When Jesus prayed here that God would sanctify them, he probably included both these ideas, that they might be made personally more holy, and might be truly consecrated to God as the ministers of his religion. Ministers of the gospel will be really devoted to the service of God just in proportion as they are personally pure.

Also consider 1Thes.5:23
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

They were already saved. They had "positional sanctification." What then is Paul praying for? He is praying that their "sanctification" would "grow" or spread in them "wholly." This verse doesn't make sense if sanctification is used only in a positional sense.

1st Corinthians 3 and Carnality

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