Featured Do all christians grow spiritually in life?

Certainly they were and still are called "Christians," just as we all are children of God, brothers and sisters in Christ, saints, believers, etc.
You can take any one of those labels and use them. Not all believers, Christians, etc. are disciples. It takes time to grow. That is why many churches have a "discipleship program." The Great Commission was even worded to "Make disciples" in all nations. That included salvation. It was not salvation alone.

When Jesus said:
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
--He was not exactly talking to new believers.
He does not expect that of a new believer.

How many of you are willing to forsake everything, right now, and follow Jesus.
Sell all that you have and go to a foreign land and preach Jesus. If you are going to preach it, then I suggest you live it.

 

A disciple is a 'learner' (Gk. mathetes). Look at the Great Commission. First we are to make disciples, then we are to baptize them and teach them. You become a disciple just as soon as you believe.

Yes he does expect that of new believers. Read Acts 2:41-47; 4:32-35. No mention of disciples here, just 'those who believed.' A believer is a disciple and a disciple is a believer.

 

You are not providing any scripture that has context. IOW, scripture that actually uses the word disciple.
Furthermore your post is all opinion. You haven't built a solid case.

I don't know you and I don't know what you do for a living. But I do know what the Scriptures say about being a disciple, and most here wouldn't fit the requirements.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
--Have you left all: your family, your home, even your nation, that is everything you possess, and gone, following Christ to a region where Christ has not been named. I believe this is the meaning of this verse. Leave absolutely everything behind. There is no other meaning to Forsake All that you have!

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
--Sadly there are some here that believe "being dead" is positional, and is done only once in one's life. But that isn't what is taught here. Jesus taught that one must deny himself and take up his cross every day. Both of these things are connected and must be done every day. The cross is an instrument of death. One must die every day--every day put self to death. A new believer hasn't learned that yet. Jesus was speaking to his disciples.
A few verses earlier gives the context:
Luk 9:18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

In Luke 9:57-62 Jesus gives three examples of "would-be disciples." There is no indication that these men are not saved. They just don't want to be disciples. They have already counted that cost.

First:
Luk 9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
--One believer has good intentions (like many here on this board who make the claim they are disciples). But then Jesus points out to him: "Do you really know what it means to by "my disciple," that is "to follow me"? He explains to him that he would have to leave the comforts and conveniences of home (even his own family--something most are not willing to do).
--I don't have a home Jesus says. The foxes have homes. The birds have their nests. But the Son of man has no place to lay his head. I don't have a home Christ says quite plainly. Are you willing to make that sacrifice?
The Bible Knowledge Commentator quotes:

Second,
Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
--This believer hears God's call and is willing, but he has something to do first. The excuse may be summarized this way: "Lord...me first." He called Jesus Lord, but he put his own interests first. If Christ is truly Lord then all things must be secondary.
Jesus rebukes him. The spiritually dead can bury the physically dead but they can't preach a spiritual message, that is the gospel. He doesn't have his priorities straight. He is not fit to be a disciple.

Three.
Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
--This believer volunteered to follow Christ just like the first one did. But like the second he set forth a condition. "Let me first..." Even if it seemed reasonable it was still putting "me" before Christ.
Again the rebuke comes from Christ.
Again a quote from the Bible Knowledge Commentary, where I gleaned some of this information from,

There is a difference between a believer and a disciple. The difference is quite obvious.

 

All believers are disciples. ...not all disciples are believers however.

 

I think if you look again that I have done so. I referenced Matt. 28:19, and I referenced Acts 2:41-47 and 4:32-37. Why don't you deal with those texts?
I won't be able to deal with your post until Monday, but I'm sure someone more able than I will be able to explain to you that you have entirely misunderstood the texts that you have quoted.

 

You are very confused. How many are willing to forsake all and follow Jesus. Jesus said you must be a disciple to do that. Who outside the realm of believers (as you suggest) is going to sacrifice like that to be a disciple of Christ? Ludicrous. Not even all believers will become disciples; in fact very few will.

 

Not all learn at the same rate. Some put their "learning status" in neutral, like the believers in 1Cor.3:1-5. They were carnal. Paul wanted to teach them meat. He had to feed them milk. IOW, he had to start all over again with the essentials because they hadn't grown spiritually at all. They were believers, but not disciples. And they certainly were not learning. If anything they were going backwards--falling back into their Gentile habits. This is addressed in chapter 12 of the same epistle.

Right. There is no mention of disciple. Because they weren't all ready to make that step. You are confused because you believe that a word can be defined by its etymology. That is not true. A disciple is more than just a follower. Don't just look at the etymology of the word. Look at the words of Jesus when he himself defined what a disciple was. Come to a more mature meaning of the word.

If etymology was what one relied on, then Sunday would be a day to worship the Sun. Is it?

 

Martin M has given the correct definition of a disciple.
You continue on thinking that the bible is like a lump of silly putty that you can make into anything you want it to say.

What is ludicrous is your repeated errors and legalistic formulas that blind you from coming to truth.
You insist on forcing your carnal understanding of 1 Cor 3:1-5 as you give your version of uncle DHK'S storytime.

Clearly in John 6 we read....from that time forth many of His disciples walked no more with Him.
They followed the teaching for a while....as MM describes the word correctly...they followed the teaching,until they no longer desired to follow it.
The statement stands.....
All believers are disciples. ...not all disciples are believers!

 

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’" (Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking Glass).

You quoted extensively from Luke 9:57ff, but nowhere in that pericope is either of the words 'believer' or 'disciple' mentioned. You have decided unilaterally that these people were the one and not the other, but you haven't an atom of Scripture to back up what you are claiming.

 

Words are defined by context not by etymology. I follow the Biblical definition of a word.
Do you worship the "sun" on Sunday? Odd, I never got an answer out of that one.

I don't ignore context as you do in 1Cor.3:1-5, not the context of chapter, not the context of the chapter nor of the previous chapter to which it is connected. But you do. Thus you get the meaning wrong every time. You want to follow the meaning given by teachings of men in various links you have instead of following the plain teaching of the Word of God. It is as simple as that.

We have over one billion "Christians" in this world today. Islam says that America is a "Christian" nation. Both statements are obviously wrong. Not everyone who is called a Christian is a Christian, and not every person that said they were a disciple was a disciple. Jesus knew that.
In fact after 3 1/2 years of ministry on this earth, hundreds of miracles, thousands of people following Him, even confessing that they would follow Him, how many did Christ end up. In the book of Acts, chapter one, we see that Christ ended up with a mere 120 disciples.. There were many more that had believed along the way. But only 120 were willing to pay the price of discipleship.

 

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Here Jesus sets down conditions of discipleship. Are you really going to say that all believers are ready to admit they are ready to be a disciple of Christ. I believe I have asked you the same question. Have you forsaken all (family, home, even nation--absolutely everything), and gone somewhere else to follow Jesus in the responsibility of carrying out the Great Commission?
--That is what being a disciple is all about.

In Matthew 4:19 Jesus, near the beginning of his ministry saw Peter and Andrew fishing. He said to them:
"Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
The teaching of that verse is that if you "follow me," I will make you my disciple. It is not: Be my disciple and I will show you how to fish for men. Disciples are made not born.
The "Great Commission" says literally "Make disciples of all men." It does not say "make followers." Christ did not want followers, he wanted those who believed in him, and then those who would sacrifice for him. There is a difference.

 

DHK,


(I don't ignore context as you do in 1Cor.3:1-5, not the context of chapter, not the context of the chapter nor of the previous chapter to which it is connected. But you do. Thus you get the meaning wrong every time. You want to follow the meaning given by teachings of men in various links you have instead of following the plain teaching of the Word of God. It is as simple as that.)

Anyone who has listened to the links, those sermons knows you are clueless and mistaken badly on the passage.
These men know the words that are used.
You claim to have written a commentary.on the passage and you do not know the words used as these men do.
The Commentary being built on your defective ideas rather than truth cannot really be helpful to anyone.
You refuse to learn....you remain in the dark on this topic.

 

This is quite correct, but the problem within the churches is 'easy-believism.' So many Baptist churches are baptizing people who are not Christians. If a church is taking people and telling them that they can be saved by a mere intellectual belief in Christ, this is the most desperate wickedness. Our Lord told people to count the cost of discipleship right at the start. This is what he's doing in Luke 14 He is not talking to baptized believers and bringing them on to the next stage; He is addressing 'great multitudes' and telling them that following Him is no easy ride.

The N.T. uses a variety of words to describe Christians and all of them mean the same thing: ‘Christian’, ‘Disciple’, ‘Saint’, ‘Believer’, ‘Brother’, ‘Beloved one’, ‘Called one.’

As we compare these words, we may see that a Christian is someone who is loved by God, has been effectually called by Him, who believes in Christ for salvation, is learning more about Him, is separated from the world by the Holy Spirit, and is united to his fellow-believers by the bonds of spiritual brotherhood.

Also, as we look at the New Testament letters, we can make the assumption that they were written to Christians as we look at the opening addresses (eg. Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:2; 2Peter 1:1 etc ). The following descriptions are based largely upon what the writers of the letters say about the recipients.

A Christian is someone who has been taught by God. He has learned of the Father and therefore fled to Christ for salvation (John 6:45; 1Thes 2:13). Although he has been taught in this way, he still needs to grow in the faith by hearing, ‘the pure milk of the word’ (1Peter 2:2) and indeed, by graduating to the ‘meat’ (Heb 5:12-14).

A Christian is someone who has received New Birth from God (John 3:3, 5; James 1:18; 1Peter 1:3-5).

A Christian is someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9; 1John 2:20).

A Christian is someone who knows the Lord, has His laws written upon his heart and has his sins forgiven (Heb 8:10-11).

A Christian is someone who knows God as his Father (Rom 8:15). He needs no man to tell him how to know God (Matt 16:17; Heb 8:11; 1John 2:27).

A Christian is no longer a citizen of this world but of heaven (Phil 3:20; Heb 11:16).

A Christian is someone whom God has called out of darkness into light (Eph 5:8; Col 1:13; 1Thes 5:5; 1Peter 2:9).

A Christian is someone who has been baptized (Acts 2:41; Rom 6:4). Not because water baptism makes one a Christian, but because being baptized is our Lord’s command for those whom He saves (Matt 28:19; Acts 2:38).

A Christian is someone who is kept by the power of God (John 10:27-30; 17:11; Rom 8:38; 1Peter 1:5).

None of this is something that people graduate to at some point in their Christian lives. These things are right up front. We are not the Freemasons, where one is inducted into different 'mysteries' at different stages. 'If anyone is in Christ, He is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come.' If that isn't the case, one is not a Christian, and therefore will neither see nor enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3, 5) and therefore should not be baptized.

It behoves each one of us to ask himself, if that is what a Christian is, am I one? The Lord Jesus Himself warns us that on the Last day many folk will discover that they have been deceiving themselves (Matt 7:22-3).

[Much of this taken from my blog post https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/what-is-a-christian/ ]

 

I believe that our Lord absolutely does expect and require this of new believers.
We are to forsake our sins; we are to forsake our self-righteousness and our self-confidence; we are to forsake our old pre-suppositions; we are to forsake all doubtful practices, bad language, coarse jokes- all the baggage of our old lives has to be forsaken before we can become a follower of Christ. Anyone who tells an enquirer that he can keep his sins or his old way of life and still be a 'believer' or, worse yet, baptizes him, is sending that person to hell with a pocket-full of false promises in his hands.

Of course, some believers are called to give up everything quite literally- their jobs, homes, their country, their families- even their lives- for Christ. These are those who come to follow Him in Moslem (and sometimes also in Buddhist and Hindu) lands. They count the cost and follow Christ and the world is not worthy of them.

John 8:31. 'Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed on Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.' There are two kinds of disciples: true ones ('disciples indeed') and false ones. The difference is that the true ones abide; the false ones don't (John 6:66)..

Read Ezekiel 3:4-7.
I have been called to serve the Lord in a particularly evil part of the world, where the name of Christ is hardly heard except as a joke or a curse; where men bow down before their idols of silver and gold and chromium; where they sacrifice their unborn sons and daughters to Molech in great numbers in the name of feminism or 'wimmin's rights;' where most even of those who are ministers of Christ deny Him. I believe that is where the Lord would have me serve Him.

 

For dhk, how many of you and yours are willing to cut off his right hand, or pluck out the right eye (Matthew 5:29-30)? I'd be interested in seeing how you would handle teaching this to those who you say are all, each and every one saved in your church. Are then each of them missing a right eye and right hand?

There is a need on your part to grasp the figurative language being used in Scriptures describing those within the kingdom, and the descriptive language used to describe their entering. The converted know what it means to them to 'forsake all' and in His Divine providence some understand this in its figurative sense, some understand this in reality as well. But there is need for you to grasp this meaning, what the Scriptures are meaning not merely what they are saying.

 

He is discussing the subject of discipleship. The same topic he addressed alone to his disciples just a few chapters previous:

Luk 9:18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
Luk 9:21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
--These also are verses on discipleship. If one will "come after me," "follow me," etc. or, "be my disciple." This is the way you are defining the word is it not?

The words are not the same. They all have their own definition, hence they are different for a purpose.

Also, as we look at the New Testament letters, we can make the assumption that they were written to Christians as we look at the opening addresses (eg. Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:2; 2Peter 1:1 etc ). The following descriptions are based largely upon what the writers of the letters say about the recipients.

--You believe in baptismal regeneration? Not all Christians are baptized. Not all Christians are disciples.

What you call "the old" in many new believers takes longer than just a day to disappear. It is called progressive sanctification which you seem to deny at this point. Here it is where you seem to say that the day a person believes in Christ, then presto! he is now ready for the mission field.
Forsake all that you have and follow Christ. Unless you do that you are not a true believer/disciple.
The trouble with that is few probably haven't done it so it isn't very convenient to believe.

Then perhaps some people should take it to heart.
Consider the 3,000 that got saved on the Day of Pentecost. They were all saved. I would venture to say that very few went on to be disciples. At the end of the chapter it goes on to say that "the Lord added daily such as should be saved. He was adding believers not disciples. That is made clear. Afterward the believers continued in the apostles doctrine, etc., that they might become disciples.

 

This has nothing to do with this subject. Start another thread.

There is nothing figurative about "forsaking all."
Peter and John forsook their fishing business and followed Jesus.
Levi left all of his money and tax business in the middle of the street and went and followed Jesus.
Those whom Jesus called "to be disciples" left all and followed him.
Unless you are willing to forsake all and follow him you are not his disciple. That is what the scripture says and means. It is not figurative.

 

Luke 9:23. ' And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. '

Any man, any man at all. Not some mythical subset of 'disciples.'

'Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all as any had need......etc. (Acts 2:44-45; cf. Acts 4:32ff). These people didn't have to go on a 'discipleship training course. They believed and proved their faith by their works. All of them. Straight away.

 

And that turned out to be few. The "if" was too hard. The rich young ruler found that out.
We live in a world like he did--too much affluence; too much to give up.
A cross is to die on. I don't see many living as Christ describes here.

Yes they did. The probably did because as soon as a person was saved in that era they were ostracized by their families, persecuted by them, as well as being persecuted by the Roman government.

It would be much like a Muslim converting to Christ in an Islamic state today. He faces such persecution that immediately he finds refuge with Christians and for awhile "they have all things in common," etc.
The average American has no idea.