Featured Does God Create Evil?

Preaching Jesus,

I am sorry, but you are wrong, sin (or if you want to call it "evil" as you did above) is a thing from a scriptural point of view. The the word “sin” in sripture is used numerous times as a noun (Matt. 1:21; 3:6; 9:2; Mark 2:7; Luke 1:77; John 1:29; Acts 2:38; Rom. 3:9; 1 Cor. 6:18; Gal. 1:4; etc.). My understanding is that a noun is a person, place, thing or idea. Paul says in Romans that “Blessed is the man whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (4:8). If sin is not a “thing” then please explain how it can be imputed unto someone? The word “impute” means to take an inventory and the word “sin” here is used as a noun. In the same letter he also says; “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Rom. 5:12)” The word “sin” is in this verse twice and both times it is a noun with the definite article before it. So, therefore it is actually saying, “Wherefore, as by one man THE sin entered into the world, and death by THE sin;...” On the other hand, the word “sinned” in the above verse is a verb and in the active voice. And it isn’t alone because there are numerous other verses as well that it is used as a verb (see Luke 15:18; John 5:14; 8:11 and Romans 3:23 just for a small example). Consequently, since “sin” is also used as a verb it shows action. If sin is not a thing then how could any action be associated with it? We see therefore that sin “entered” into the world by one man. That one man we know as Adam and it occurred when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If sin is not a “thing” then how could it “enter” into anywhere? If sin is not a “thing” then how could it be active? Paul also says this about Christ in his second letter to the Corinthian brethren. “For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (5:21)” Here Christ was made sin for His people. He who knew no sin became sin. Now again, if sin is not a thing then please explain how could Christ be made it? Peter also concurs when he writes in his first letter, “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (2:24) Again, (I know that I am being extremely redundant here but...) I ask how could Christ bare the sins of His people in his own body if sin is not a thing and how could “we” be dead to sins?

Now that I have proven sin is a thing, one must conclude God must have created it (albeit using secondary causes, the devil and Adam and Eve being those secondary causes, thus God it cannot be said is the author of sin, further His motive for willing that sin exist was for His Holy purpose of showing mercy and redeeming His people, therefore for Him to will sin to exist was not a sinful action). God created all things, "16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17)

If

 

I posted this on another thread the good Rev created on a similar topic, but it has direct relevance to this one and refutes the Rev indisputably, thus I am posting it here. (Rev had no rebuttal in that thread and I suspect he will revert to his usual favorite debate tactic again in this thread of ad hominem attacks, rather than address my post).

I would like to see these so called "theologians" you are quoting from would explain the following verses,
"But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him" (1 Samuel 16:14)

Ezekiel says: “And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (14:9)” It was God who deceived the prophets.

Looking again in the book of Second Samuel it says: “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1)” Here we see that the Lord was angry with Israel again and he (the Lord) moved David against them in numbering the people. The word for “and he moved” means to “prick” or better yet to “stimulate, seduce, entice, persuade and provoke”. So we see the Lord “causing” David to say “Go, number Israel and Judah” because of his anger towards Israel. Then King David tells his captain of the host Joab to go out and number all the people. Then after it is all said and done, David is convicted or pricked in the heart for numbering the people and says unto the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. (24:10)” David confessed to sinning greatly before the Lord. Here it was Jehovah who moved (directed his steps) David to sin in numbering the people and then we see David confessing his sin to Jehovah for numbering the people. (To me, this is a perfect invalidation to the accusation that if it is God that causes one to sin then that person can just turn around and blame their sin on God. David was moved to do this action and yet it is evident from these verses that he was convicted of that sin and confessed that sin before the Lord.) Now, I can probably guess as to what some are probably thinking: But it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” Yes, that is absolutely correct and that verse is as much Scripture and truth as the verses quoted above, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel.

One final point I will offer you for you to consider on the matter Rev is from the book of Job. "12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord" (Job 1:12), then after calamity falls upon Job, Job attributes the disasters that were done to him as coming from God, not Satan. Job says in the same chapter "the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." (Job 1:21). Was Job wrong in attributing what happened to him to God when the Lord said all that Job had was in Satan's power? The next verse tells us, "22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." (Job 1:22). These events prove Satan is just God's pawn to accomplish God's purposes. Contrary to popular belief nothing happens outside of the will of God per scripture, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11). The verse says "all things", not "some things" are worked according to God's will and you, nor anybody else can get around that.

 

For space sake, I didn't post all the quote from the above post.

I read your response to Rev. M, and his statement. I see that in effect he answered you (before your post), in the post that states, "Even while God is not the author of moral evil He most certainly remains sovereign over it. His primary source of control and sovereignty over evil is the cross of Jesus Christ."

I see that as applying to the verses that you posted in attempt to refute Rev. M.

God never "created evil." Rather, evil (the antitheses of good) was found in the desire of the enemy of believers to ascend above the delegated station.

So, who is the "evil spirit from the Lord?" it isn't the Lord, rather that enemy that must ask permission before assaulting one chosen by God (as was Saul).

Is it in God's sovereignty to allow someone to be deceived as a result of their own deceitfulness? Most certainly and that is what God said of the deceitful prophet - they were deceitful so they were deceived. Same as God know pharaohs hard was already hard and used that to confirm the hardness.

Was not David a military man? Would he not already desire to know the strength of his own people? So again, it wasn't God instilling something new, rather using as shown above the inner nature already existing.

To state that Satan is the "puppet" or "servant of God" is wrong thinking. And the verses you use to support that thinking are used in a misguided way - as already demonstrated in the illustration that you gave and used askew of support.

One final example. Job was not involved in the conversation between God and Satan. He had no frame of reference in which to establish that God had allowed His own to suffer. He accepted the suffering as appointed to Him by God, and as God's servant was submissive even if it were unto death.

Of course in all this, Job didn't sin. He trusted God.

By suggesting that Satan was God's "puppet," seem alarmingly close to suggesting that God purposed Satan to be evil when he was created and established as an arch angel that was to give continual praise to God and command 1/3 of the angelic hosts.

God is sovereign but He is not dictatorial.

God has all authority, and, as sovereign, He delegates that authority to both human and angelic.

God did create all things. He created Satan, and delegated authority over certain matters to that creation, example: the creation of man came with delegated authority given to that creation.

Satan perverted the delegated authority and was found out. Adam perverted the delegated authority and was found out.

I suggest that what you offered in way of proof, is actually supporting the statement of Rev. M.

 

Hi Brother Agedman, I do not have the time to respond to your entire post and will not be on the board until the Monday after next due to the holidays, thus I guess you can have the final word on this topic after I make this post (unless of course someone else decided to debate you).

Satan was created evil. Here is the verse you probably are utilizing to support your contention that he was created holy “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee” (Ezekiel 28:15) The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect”.The definition of the word "perfect" in Hebrew used in that verse can be found here http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8549.htm so you don't need to take my word for it. The verse makes clear that whom Ezekiel is talking about was a created being and was created perfect or complete. The next thing to notice is in the second part of the verse which says, “...till iniquity was found in thee.” Here we see that “iniquity” which means “evil or wickedness” was found in him. So, think about it in this light: If something is found somewhere does that not mean then that it was there before but just wasn’t made manifest? For example, picture that my wife and I are out walking on a path and as I look down I notice and “find” a silver dollar in the dirt on the ground. Did that silver dollar “originate” at that moment in the dirt because it was found by me? Or was it there before I found it? Obviously it was there before I found it but it was just made manifest to me at that moment. So, when this verse says that “iniquity” was found in him, then it means that this “evil or wickedness” was already there but was made manifest in him at the appointed time.

What else do the Scriptures say about the devil?

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

But now wait! Don’t these verses contradict themselves? Not one bit! When we take the two verses above and the verse from Ezekiel we see that Satan was created a perfect murderer, a perfect liar and a perfect sinner. He has had nothing to do with truth from the beginning because there is no truth in him. He was a sinner from the beginning and he was created that way by God to fulfill God’s purpose.

It would have been quite dumb of God to create Satan the way you contend He did if God foreknew all the evil Satan would do and the evil served none of God's purposes, but rather worked against His purposes, why would God do that? No human being would create a machine knowing in advance that the way the machine was made it would break down and also work against his creator, but yet that is precisely what you contend God did with Satan and for what, so that Satan could fight against God's purposes or at the very least to serve no purpose at all? How is that logical? Also, if Satan was created holy, then how on earth could he have an evil inclination that would cause him to sin? Where would this inclination come from, it couldn't come from within Satan if he was made "good" because Christ himself declared, "17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.8 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" (Matthew 7:17-18). If Satan was created a "good tree" he couldn't have bought forth evil fruit per the principle Christ laid down in Matthew! Further, notice Satan did not become a "crooked serpent" he was created that way by God, "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent" (Job 26:13) . That the "crooked serpent" mentioned here is referring to the devil can be seen from this verse, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." (Isaiah 27:1)

Finally, if Satan serves none of God's purposes, tell me why oh why is Satan loosed from his prison in Revelation to deceive the nations ? "7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to deceive the nations ..." (Revelation 20:7-8). God could have left him in the prison he put him in back in Revelation 20:2, "2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,", did he release him for no purpose? That would be absurd and illogical wouldn't it? Also, Satan was certainly evil when he was put in the garden, otherwise he wouldn't have lied to and deceived Eve, did God have no purpose for Satan being there or did Satan just defeat the purposes of God and outwit him?

 

He had no rebuttal for what I said either.

 

You enjoy our thanksgiving Brother! I will not be on here until probably the last Monday in November after today. I know you will do a good job in defending the truth on these threads!

 

That all would make a sound point if the following were not true.
1) It would be totally against the revealed character and nature of God to "create" what would be an antithesis to that character and nature.
2) "being found in him" is not the same as being made that way.
3) it is not true in the example of the coin above the one "finding" did not put it there. Yet, that is what you are suggesting. That God put it there, and then found it as if He had misplaced it.
4) The adjective "tamam," of Ezekiel 28, as used in the passage is to be taken as having Godly integrity. But what of the "aviah" of the same verse. It means injustice and more directly violent injustice.
5) How did this happen? The following verses declare the background and the results.
6) Sin was brought by "the abundance of trade internally filling with violence.
7) The results of that sin - heart lifted up because of beauty, wisdom corrupted because of splendor, and the overt planned and propagated profaning of worship.

God did not "Create" evil, and Ezekiel shows that He didn't.

The "beginning" of what?

Look back at Ezekiel or the answer. I am going along with you pointing to that passage as a foundation to a time line of the process.

“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

“You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you. (underlines mine)​

Here is the problem with your thinking:
1) The Scriptures do not support that God created the enemy of the believers as a perfect murderer, liar, sinner. See Ezekiel above.
2) Logically speaking, if God created him a murderer, liar, sinner then there would be no eternal punishment arranged specifically for he and his. That would be a violation of God's character of justice.
3) Stress is placed by the Lord Jesus Christ upon the ownership of the religious rulers of his day in John 8. In that section, there is a nuance of the character of Satan. Not only is he the father of all liars and murderers, but the nature of all liars and murderers comes from the nature of their father. Therefore, God's nature would be in great turmoil and violence had he created the father of unbelievers, the enemy of believers.

I wonder. Do you consider the hosts of heaven robots with no will or determination?

For example: Remember Daniel sat by a river for 3 days seeking an answer. What delayed the messenger? Was that delay preordained, predetermined by God?

God's foreknowledge does not prevent. That is not the character of God. Rather, God's foreknowledge is displayed as knowing all aspects, including motives and thoughts of the heart, and understanding the outcomes of all decisions.

What makes you think that evil cannot serve God's purpose?

When was the last time you bought a car? Did you ever hear of folks to have warranty work done because the creator allowed a flaw that they new would be dangerous?

Let's go through each question, below.

Again, you must be considering that all the heavenly hosts are created with no self determination. So, yes it is logical. God created that all creation give Him glory. How would such glory be anything but shameful if it came from robots?

The same way that believers sin: as shown in Ezekiel as he became filled with the lust of the flesh, eyes, and pride of life.

Again, you are making Satan as if he had no choice, and one that would never express himself.

1) as stated above, God did not make his creation to be robots that could only return what was programmed into them.
2) A tree is not self determining. The hosts of heaven and humankind are. Therefore, a believer may produce "good fruit" or "evil fruit" for they have complete freedom to choose. The unbeliever has no such freedom and may only choose that which is evil fruit. The heavenly hosts may choose good fruit or evil fruit. However, there is no redemption for those who choose evil.


The next post continues with the account of Brother Joseph.

 

Perhaps you need to check with the translations of Job 26:13. The KJV translation is wrong. It translates "chuwl" as "formed" but it is "writhe and dance." The NASB, and NIV use "chalal" (pierced through).

“By His breath the heavens are cleared;
His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent."
​

To suggest that the KJV is correct in this use, is error, and compounded by how you would interpret the statement.

Why not? Why should the physical and eye witness redemption offered in the Millennium, given without regard to satanic influence, not eventually be challenged by the father of lies and murderers just as it was in Eden where freedom of will and choice were available?

There is no lack of logic. Throughout history from the time of Eden to the final stopping of time, humankind have been given the same choice as the angelic hosts. The difference being, that the believers are redeemed from corruption where the angelic hosts choose to be corrupted.

Humankind sin by choice. They are condemned by choice. The condemned turn from the light by choice, they shun the light by choice, and they embrace the evil of darkness by choice (all this is found in the book of John).

Here is a problem with some of your thinking:
1) we do not have a "time line" of the length of stay in the garden. All we know it was more than one night for in the evenings Adam and God would walk and talk together, and Adam named all the animals. For all we know, the Eden could have lasted 1000's of years or a week. There is no indication given in Scriptures.
2) Ezekiel states that when Eden was formed that evil was not found in Satan. Rather it was as he became more lustful of the riches and the power that the excess and violence (sin) emerged.
3) Satan used half truths to deceive (still does), and his presence was not unknown in the Eden. He didn't just suddenly show up, rather the wording is such to indicate that the serpent was no stranger (more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made) and held a certain familiarity with the occupants.
It is that way even to this time. The believer is more "in tune" with the flesh and must crucify that which is earthy on purpose.
4) To depict Satan as able to "defeat the purposes of God and outwit Him" would be restating the whole thinking of the enemy of believers. That is specifically his desire. That he will not be successful, and now knows that his end is certain and soon, merely makes him more determined to ravage and destroy the beloved of God as he did in Eden.

I trust this extremely long post is not unworthy of folks reading so that they may discern between the views and be edified.