Hi Brother Agedman, I do not have the time to respond to your entire post and will not be on the board until the Monday after next due to the holidays, thus I guess you can have the final word on this topic after I make this post (unless of course someone else decided to debate you).
Satan was created evil. Here is the verse you probably are utilizing to support your contention that he was created holy “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee” (Ezekiel 28:15) The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect”.The definition of the word "perfect" in Hebrew used in that verse can be found here
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8549.htm so you don't need to take my word for it. The verse makes clear that whom Ezekiel is talking about was a created being and was created perfect or complete. The next thing to notice is in the second part of the verse which says, “...till iniquity was found in thee.” Here we see that “iniquity” which means “evil or wickedness” was found in him. So, think about it in this light: If something is found somewhere does that not mean then that it was there before but just wasn’t made manifest? For example, picture that my wife and I are out walking on a path and as I look down I notice and “find” a silver dollar in the dirt on the ground. Did that silver dollar “originate” at that moment in the dirt because it was found by me? Or was it there before I found it? Obviously it was there before I found it but it was just made manifest to me at that moment. So, when this verse says that “iniquity” was found in him, then it means that this “evil or wickedness” was already there but was made manifest in him at the appointed time.
That all would make a sound point if the following were not true.
1) It would be totally against the revealed character and nature of God to "create" what would be an antithesis to that character and nature.
2) "being found in him" is not the same as being made that way.
3) it is not true in the example of the coin above the one "finding" did not put it there. Yet, that is what you are suggesting. That God put it there, and then found it as if He had misplaced it.
4) The adjective "tamam," of Ezekiel 28, as used in the passage is to be taken as having Godly integrity. But what of the "aviah" of the same verse. It means injustice and more directly violent injustice.
5) How did this happen? The following verses declare the background and the results.
6) Sin was brought by "the abundance of trade internally filling with violence.
7) The results of that sin - heart lifted up because of beauty, wisdom corrupted because of splendor, and the overt planned and propagated profaning of worship.
God did not "Create" evil, and Ezekiel shows that He didn't.
What else do the Scriptures say about the devil?
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)
The "beginning" of what?
Look back at Ezekiel or the answer. I am going along with you pointing to that passage as a foundation to a time line of the process.
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
“You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you. (underlines mine)
But now wait! Don’t these verses contradict themselves? Not one bit! When we take the two verses above and the verse from Ezekiel we see that Satan was created a perfect murderer, a perfect liar and a perfect sinner. He has had nothing to do with truth from the beginning because there is no truth in him. He was a sinner from the beginning and he was created that way by God to fulfill God’s purpose.
Here is the problem with your thinking:
1) The Scriptures do not support that God created the enemy of the believers as a perfect murderer, liar, sinner. See Ezekiel above.
2) Logically speaking, if God created him a murderer, liar, sinner then there would be no eternal punishment arranged specifically for he and his. That would be a violation of God's character of justice.
3) Stress is placed by the Lord Jesus Christ upon the ownership of the religious rulers of his day in John 8. In that section, there is a nuance of the character of Satan. Not only is he the father of all liars and murderers, but the nature of all liars and murderers comes from the nature of their father. Therefore, God's nature would be in great turmoil and violence had he created the father of unbelievers, the enemy of believers.
It would have been quite dumb of God to create Satan the way you contend He did if God foreknew all the evil Satan would do and the evil served none of God's purposes, but rather worked against His purposes, why would God do that?
I wonder. Do you consider the hosts of heaven robots with no will or determination?
For example: Remember Daniel sat by a river for 3 days seeking an answer. What delayed the messenger? Was that delay preordained, predetermined by God?
God's foreknowledge does not prevent. That is not the character of God. Rather, God's foreknowledge is displayed as knowing all aspects, including motives and thoughts of the heart, and understanding the outcomes of all decisions.
What makes you think that evil cannot serve God's purpose?
No human being would create a machine knowing in advance that the way the machine was made it would break down and also work against his creator,
When was the last time you bought a car? Did you ever hear of folks to have warranty work done because the creator allowed a flaw that they new would be dangerous?
Let's go through each question, below.
but yet that is precisely what you contend God did with Satan and for what, so that Satan could fight against God's purposes or at the very least to serve no purpose at all? How is that logical?
Again, you must be considering that all the heavenly hosts are created with no self determination. So, yes it is logical. God created that all creation give Him glory. How would such glory be anything but shameful if it came from robots?
Also, if Satan was created holy, then how on earth could he have an evil inclination that would cause him to sin?
The same way that believers sin: as shown in Ezekiel as he became filled with the lust of the flesh, eyes, and pride of life.
Where would this inclination come from, it couldn't come from within Satan if he was made "good" because Christ himself declared, "17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.8 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" (Matthew 7:17-18). If Satan was created a "good tree" he couldn't have bought forth evil fruit per the principle Christ laid down in Matthew!
Again, you are making Satan as if he had no choice, and one that would never express himself.
1) as stated above, God did not make his creation to be robots that could only return what was programmed into them.
2) A tree is not self determining. The hosts of heaven and humankind are. Therefore, a believer may produce "good fruit" or "evil fruit" for they have complete freedom to choose. The unbeliever has no such freedom and may only choose that which is evil fruit. The heavenly hosts may choose good fruit or evil fruit. However, there is no redemption for those who choose evil.
The next post continues with the account of Brother Joseph.
