Berean Proof the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. Challenge

Hark said:

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Here is a site giving scriptural references for the Nicene creed of 381 A.D.

http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/holyscripturereferencestothecreed.htm

Below is a line from the Nicene creed that is not really supported by scripture.

"Who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, ( Matthew 3:16-17 ) "

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

That reference is only about the Father & the Holy Spirit testifying that Jesus is God at Jesus's water baptism by John the Baptist.

That is far far far away from validating the "practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son". We can find a lot of verses about how the Holy Spirit is God, but where is the instruction to practice worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son? It's nowhere.

And it is because God the Father told us how He wants us to come to Him in worship in honoring Him ( John 5:22-23 ) and that is by way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) Whom the Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us to testify of ( John 15:26-27 ) and to glorify ( John 16:13-14 ) even in worship ( Philippians 2:5-11 & John 13:31-32 ).

Now if I missed a verse, feel free to correct that site for giving a wrong scriptural reference for the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, because Matthew 3:16-17 is not it.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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The intention of the proof text is not to verify the Spirit is worshipped with the Father and Son, but that Christ is worshipped. "With Father and Son" is unrelated to the proof text.

And just to clarify, are you suggesting the Spirit is not to be worshipped with the Father and Son?


God bless.

Darrell C said:

The intention of the proof text is not to verify the Spirit is worshipped with the Father and Son, but that Christ is worshipped. "With Father and Son" is unrelated to the proof text.

And just to clarify, are you suggesting the Spirit is not to be worshipped with the Father and Son?

God bless.

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Since scripture says the Holy Spirit will not speak for Himself, ( John 16:13 ) but to glorify Jesus Christ ( John 16:14 ) by testifying of the Son ( John 15:26 ) which is exactly what He is leading believers to do ( John 15:27 ) and to avoid having unrighteousness in seeking His own glory ( John 7:18 ), how can we be led by the Holy Spirit in any other way in worship?

The Holy Spirit will not lead us to glorify Himself with the Father & the Son in worship.

Hark said:

Since scripture says the Holy Spirit will not speak for Himself, ( John 16:13 ) but to glorify Jesus Christ ( John 16:14 ) by testifying of the Son ( John 15:26 ) which is exactly what He is leading believers to do ( John 15:27 ) and to avoid having unrighteousness in seeking His own glory ( John 7:18 ), how can we be led by the Holy Spirit in any other way in worship?

The Holy Spirit will not lead us to glorify Himself with the Father & the Son in worship.

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You are confusing the distinction between the Ministry of the Comforter with God in the Eternal Perspective.

This would be similar to saying, "Well, Christ was just a man, and still is just a man." And there are those who believe that, because they overlap instruction in regards to God, Christ, and the Spirit.

It is true that Christ was fully man, but, that does not change the fact He was God manifest in the flesh.

It is true that the Comforter, working within that uniquely New Testament Era, glorifies Christ, rather than Himself.

But, we know that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all Three God, thus, we worship God as One.

Now, consider Who it is that came on Pentecost:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Okay, so far we see a couple truths taught by Christ in regards to that future event which will occur after the Lord Jesus Christ has returned to Heaven.

These would be...

1. The Lord Jesus Christ will pray the Father and He (the Father) will give them another Comforter (and most forget that important word, "another," and fail to ask themselves "Who is the current Comforter?").

2. His (the "other/another") coming is distinguished as distinct to the current ministry, and will be forever (contrasted to the current ministry which is about to end).

3. His coming to them will be internal, not external.

So far, we see that the Spirit of Truth is in view, and is distinguished from the Persons of the Father and the Son.

Now, let's see what He states next:


18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


This demonstrates the Unity of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

He goes on to say...


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


So when we view the Eternal Indwelling as a matter of, "Well, the Spirit of God live in me, and the Father and Christ are in Heaven," we neglect the fact that the Eternal Indwelling that we receive at salvation is not a matter of a division of GOd in which we set the Spirit of God to the side in our worship.

When we Worship God, we worship all Three, because God cannot be divided from Himself.

One more:


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


We are to correct to tell people that they need to ask Jesus to come into their hearts. This is a simplified way to express the realities of the Eternal Indwelling of God bestowed upon those that receive the Gospel and come under obedience to it.

Okay, one more, lol...


Romans 8:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Here the Spirit of God, unquestionably the same Spirit Christ foretells as coming, is also called the Spirit of Christ.

The reason being...God is One.

So just as Christ said "I will come to you," even so, that is what He does.

Again, if we distinguish between Person and Ministry, we will not create a Theology where we impose a restriction in worship of the Holy Ghost, for He is God, and worthy of our worship. Stephen charged Israel with "Always resisting the Holy Ghost," and when we look into the Old Testament, we see one obvious fact: it was God speaking to them, and just as Peter rebukes Ananias and Sapphira for both lying to God and the Holy Ghost, we too should keep in mind that it is still God in view.


God bless.

John of Japan said:

Since I've been invited I'll briefly comment so I can follow the thread, but I'm backing off from threads right now to get ready for a missions trip in a month. (I have to produce training material.)

What is lacking in the thread is a definition of "worship." There are various words used in the NT of worship, some of which would fit our relationship to the Holy Spirit, and some of which would not. The most common word is the Greek word proskuneo, which means to literally bow down and worship physically. Obviously we do not worship the Holy Spirit in this way. The Greek word latreuo occurs 21 times, and means to worship in the sense of serving. We serve the Holy Spirit when we serve God.

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Since judgment on believers is how we honor the Son or not honor the Son, then we are led by the Holy Spirit to honor the Son in serving God.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

What the Bible does not teach is a "worship service," like we think of it today. That is not the NT purpose of the church. And the early church at the time of the Nicene creed thought of worship as serving God, but did not think of worship like we do: singing, praying, "worship teams," etc. (See the excellent book, Ancient Christian Worship, by Andrew McGowan.)

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Maybe the church back then missed these references?

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

That pretty much shows how fast the church back then deferred from the earlier churches in the N.T.

Thanks for sharing, brother.

JonC δοῦλος said:

If, however, you mean that we should not worship the Holy Spirit apart from the Trinity then I agree.

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In part, I am glad, and yet not totally at ease, because the way still has been broadened to allow seducing spirits to come in when worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. The "holy laughter" movement has happened across the denomenations as proof it is a false prophet ( Matthew 7:15-16 ), and the only link scripturally is what Jesus warned about in Matthew 7:13-14 for why they are falling down in these movements of the "Spirit" in Matthew 7:24-27

Jesus said that God the Father has set up a judgment on all believers to follow.

John 5: 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

It is because of other spirits in the world is why the way is narrow in the worship place in coming to God the Father.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So I can see why the solution to avoid being led astray is to narrow the way back to keeping that spotlight on the Son in worship because He is the only way we can honor & glorify God the Father by.

We don't, for example, pray to the Holy Spirit (nor do we pray to Jesus). So in my opinion much depends on the context of the OP.

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I am not sure how calling on the name of the Lord to be saved is not calling on Jesus in prayer.

There is also this truth to be had that Jesus is inbetween us and the Father when it comes to prayer as being at that throne of grace by Whom we have access to God the Father in prayer.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Now that He has ascended, when we do see Jesus again, He will not pray for us as we can ask the Father directly.

John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

So going before that throne of grace now is asking Jesus for help, but we can pray to the Father by Him as well.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus is our Passover Lamb by Whom we can have access to God the Father in prayer. Soon, when we have been made perfect, and see Jesus face to face, we will be free to ask the Father directly in His name.

If it means to deny the doctrine of the Trinity, then of course I disagree as it would be unorthodox.

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No. It is not about denying the deity of the Holy Spirit nor denying the doctrine of the Trinity, but God is not glorified by glorifying the name of the Trinity. God is only glorified in the Son as it is His name above every other name to the glory of God the Father which is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship. Philippians 2:5-13

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Hark said:

In part, I am glad, and yet not totally at ease, because the way still has been broadened to allow seducing spirits to come in when worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. The "holy laughter" movement has happened across the denomenations as proof it is a false prophet ( Matthew 7:15-16 ), and the only link scripturally is what Jesus warned about in Matthew 7:13-14 for why they are falling down in these movements of the "Spirit" in Matthew 7:24-27

Jesus said that God the Father has set up a judgment on all believers to follow.

John 5: 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

It is because of other spirits in the world is why the way is narrow in the worship place in coming to God the Father.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So I can see why the solution to avoid being led astray is to narrow the way back to keeping that spotlight on the Son in worship because He is the only way we can honor & glorify God the Father by.



I am not sure how calling on the name of the Lord to be saved is not calling on Jesus in prayer.

There is also this truth to be had that Jesus is inbetween us and the Father when it comes to prayer as being at that throne of grace by Whom we have access to God the Father in prayer.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Now that He has ascended, when we do see Jesus again, He will not pray for us as we can ask the Father directly.

John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

So going before that throne of grace now is asking Jesus for help, but we can pray to the Father by Him as well.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus is our Passover Lamb by Whom we can have access to God the Father in prayer. Soon, when we have been made perfect, and see Jesus face to face, we will be free to ask the Father directly in His name.



No. It is not about denying the deity of the Holy Spirit nor denying the doctrine of the Trinity, but God is not glorified by glorifying the name of the Trinity. God is only glorified in the Son as it is His name above every other name to the glory of God the Father which is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship. Philippians 2:5-13

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

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I believe those involved in such doctrinal developments as the Nicene Creed truly wrestled with God’s word in earnest. While it remains possible that these men make errors in doctrine (they are but men), I do not see such a departing from the gospel messages as exists in these movements of which you speak. The Nicene Creed was not dealing with worshiping the Holy Spirit in terms of these “movements of the spirit.” The difference is the “spirit” behind each movement.

Darrell C said:

You are confusing the distinction between the Ministry of the Comforter with God in the Eternal Perspective.

This would be similar to saying, "Well, Christ was just a man, and still is just a man." And there are those who believe that, because they overlap instruction in regards to God, Christ, and the Spirit.

It is true that Christ was fully man, but, that does not change the fact He was God manifest in the flesh.

It is true that the Comforter, working within that uniquely New Testament Era, glorifies Christ, rather than Himself.

But, we know that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all Three God, thus, we worship God as One.

Now, consider Who it is that came on Pentecost:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Okay, so far we see a couple truths taught by Christ in regards to that future event which will occur after the Lord Jesus Christ has returned to Heaven.

These would be...

1. The Lord Jesus Christ will pray the Father and He (the Father) will give them another Comforter (and most forget that important word, "another," and fail to ask themselves "Who is the current Comforter?").

2. His (the "other/another") coming is distinguished as distinct to the current ministry, and will be forever (contrasted to the current ministry which is about to end).

3. His coming to them will be internal, not external.

So far, we see that the Spirit of Truth is in view, and is distinguished from the Persons of the Father and the Son.

Now, let's see what He states next:


18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


This demonstrates the Unity of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

He goes on to say...


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


So when we view the Eternal Indwelling as a matter of, "Well, the Spirit of God live in me, and the Father and Christ are in Heaven," we neglect the fact that the Eternal Indwelling that we receive at salvation is not a matter of a division of GOd in which we set the Spirit of God to the side in our worship.

When we Worship God, we worship all Three, because God cannot be divided from Himself.

One more:


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


We are to correct to tell people that they need to ask Jesus to come into their hearts. This is a simplified way to express the realities of the Eternal Indwelling of God bestowed upon those that receive the Gospel and come under obedience to it.

Okay, one more, lol...


Romans 8:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Here the Spirit of God, unquestionably the same Spirit Christ foretells as coming, is also called the Spirit of Christ.

The reason being...God is One.

So just as Christ said "I will come to you," even so, that is what He does.

Again, if we distinguish between Person and Ministry, we will not create a Theology where we impose a restriction in worship of the Holy Ghost, for He is God, and worthy of our worship. Stephen charged Israel with "Always resisting the Holy Ghost," and when we look into the Old Testament, we see one obvious fact: it was God speaking to them, and just as Peter rebukes Ananias and Sapphira for both lying to God and the Holy Ghost, we too should keep in mind that it is still God in view.


God bless.

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Since judgment on believers is how we honor the Son or not honor the Son, then we are led by the Holy Spirit to honor the Son in serving God.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

I believe it is because there are other spirits in the world as well as spirit worship that God the Father provided only one way for sinners to come to Him in worship and that is by the only way of the Son as God the Father can only be glorified in the Son Whom the Holy Spirit has been sent to glorify the Son through the believers.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Hark said:

Since judgment on believers is how we honor the Son or not honor the Son, then we are led by the Holy Spirit to honor the Son in serving God.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Click to expand...

I am not sure where you are getting we "honor the Son by judgment on believers."

While we might indeed judge in regards to Church Discipline, this is completely unrelated to the above passage, which states all judgment is given to the Son.

In view is whether we (the world) honor the Son or not, that is the basis of judgment, and it is the same principle found throughout the New Testament which clearly divides believers from unbelievers.

Hark said:

I believe it is because there are other spirits in the world as well as spirit worship that God the Father provided only one way for sinners to come to Him in worship and that is by the only way of the Son as God the Father can only be glorified in the Son Whom the Holy Spirit has been sent to glorify the Son through the believers.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

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And the division of God is why we have those who only worship the Father, those that only worship the Son, and those that only worship the Spirit (or give more focus to Him).

Not much more I can say to this than I have already said. We are Eternally indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and we worship God as One in the Unity taught by Scripture or we fail to embrace that which Christ and the Apostles clarify.


God bless.

JonC δοῦλος said:

I believe those involved in such doctrinal developments as the Nicene Creed truly wrestled with God’s word in earnest. While it remains possible that these men make errors in doctrine (they are but men), I do not see such a departing from the gospel messages as exists in these movements of which you speak.

Click to expand...

What did you think Jesus was taking about in Matthew 7:13-14 other than how we approach God the Father by in worship ?

How else did the "holy laughter" movement happen across the denomenations in 1994 ( Matthew 7:15-16 ) unless they all thought that was the Holy Spirit coming into the worship place when worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son?

Did not these professing believers did everything in His name ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) ? And yet they were denied by Him as these be the ones that fell down in these movements of the "Spirit" ( Matthew 7:24-27 ) which was not the Holy Spirit... FYI.

Luke's version to avoid that was to narrow the way back to the straight gate ( Luke 13;24 ) so this is applicable to departing from the Father's will because Jesus said the only way to honor & to glorify the Father was by honoring & glorifying the Son in worship.

The Nicene Creed was not dealing with worshiping the Holy Spirit in terms of these “movements of the spirit.” The difference is the “spirit” behind each movement.

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That may not be an accurate assessment when they may very well teach seeking the gifts of the Spirit from the Holy Spirit Himself in prayer.

Edited: I do not know how that pink smiley face sticking his tongue out at you got in there, brother, but I took it out. Sorry.

It is that comes with no interpretation always comes by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again in these instances, only because visitations of what they believe was the Holy Spirit on believers in bringing that tongue, those believers had been saved a while before that second phenomenon which that second phenomenon was not of God at all.

It is more than likely, they derived the Nicene creed from the source documents of Alexandria other than the actual scriptural ones from Antioch, ( Acts 11:26 ) since it deviates by sharing the glory of that Giver of life Whom is the Son of God which all Bibles testify of in John 6:30-35 but run contrary in most modern Bibles when capitalizing "spirit" in John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 which was not about the Person of the Holy Spirit at all.

It goes to show that the history of the early church was not in line with the earlier church that was in the N.T. It is time to prove everything by Him by the meat of His words as kept by those that loved Him & His words in the KJV that was derived from the source documents from Antioch.

Darrell C said:

I am not sure where you are getting we "honor the Son by judgment on believers."

While we might indeed judge in regards to Church Discipline, this is completely unrelated to the above passage, which states all judgment is given to the Son.

In view is whether we (the world) honor the Son or not, that is the basis of judgment, and it is the same principle found throughout the New Testament which clearly divides believers from unbelievers.

And the division of God is why we have those who only worship the Father, those that only worship the Son, and those that only worship the Spirit (or give more focus to Him).

Click to expand...

Scripture points to how we come to God the Father in worship; John 4:23 and that is by the only way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) and that is what the indwelling Holy Spirit is sent to do in leading us to do while dwelling in us. We cannot be led by the Holy Spirit in any other way.

Not much more I can say to this than I have already said. We are Eternally indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and we worship God as One in the Unity taught by Scripture or we fail to embrace that which Christ and the Apostles clarify.


God bless.

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Just ask the Lord Jesus if you are overlooking something that He wants you to receive as truths.

Hark said:

What did you think Jesus was taking about in Matthew 7:13-14 other than how we approach God the Father by in worship ?

How else did the "holy laughter" movement happen across the denomenations in 1994 ( Matthew 7:15-16 ) unless they all thought that was the Holy Spirit coming into the worship place when worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son?

Did not these professing believers did everything in His name ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) ? And yet they were denied by Him as these be the ones that fell down in these movements of the "Spirit" ( Matthew 7:24-27 ) which was not the Holy Spirit... FYI.

Luke's version to avoid that was to narrow the way back to the straight gate ( Luke 13;24 ) so this is applicable to departing from the Father's will because Jesus said the only way to honor & to glorify the Father was by honoring & glorifying the Son in worship.



That may not be an accurate assessment when they may very well teach seeking the gifts of the Spirit from the Holy Spirit Himself in prayer.

Edited: I do not know how that pink smiley face sticking his tongue out at you got in there, brother, but I took it out. Sorry.

It is that comes with no interpretation always comes by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again in these instances, only because visitations of what they believe was the Holy Spirit on believers in bringing that tongue, those believers had been saved a while before that second phenomenon which that second phenomenon was not of God at all.

It is more than likely, they derived the Nicene creed from the source documents of Alexandria other than the actual scriptural ones from Antioch, ( Acts 11:26 ) since it deviates by sharing the glory of that Giver of life Whom is the Son of God which all Bibles testify of in John 6:30-35 but run contrary in most modern Bibles when capitalizing "spirit" in John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 which was not about the Person of the Holy Spirit at all.

It goes to show that the history of the early church was not in line with the earlier church that was in the N.T. It is time to prove everything by Him by the meat of His words as kept by those that loved Him & His words in the KJV that was derived from the source documents from Antioch.

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The narrow or straight (lit. constricted) gate means the same. Jesus is the one and only way to enter the Kingdom (see also John 3). I don't think that Jesus is talking about worship (depending again, on how you define the term) at all, rather if you continue to Matthew 7:21 I think you may find your answer.

As to how the "holy laughter" movement, this is also addressed in the passage you offer. "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?....Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Hark said:

Scripture points to how we come to God the Father in worship; John 4:23 and that is by the only way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) and that is what the indwelling Holy Spirit is sent to do in leading us to do while dwelling in us. We cannot be led by the Holy Spirit in any other way.



Just ask the Lord Jesus if you are overlooking something that He wants you to receive as truths.

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Could you point out the truths you refer to that I have not already addressed?


God bless.

Since you invited me, I shall say that there is one God. Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

And there are many verses that say to worship God. For example, Matthew 4:10 (KJV) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So I myself think that this question is pointless and in error and that the Nicene Creed is correct.

Darrell C said:

Could you point out the truths you refer to that I have not already addressed?

God bless.

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I think we have reached that point in the discussion between you and me that we have to leave it in God's hands.

church mouse guy said:

Since you invited me, I shall say that there is one God. Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

And there are many verses that say to worship God. For example, Matthew 4:10 (KJV) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So I myself think that this question is pointless and in error and that the Nicene Creed is correct.

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Okay. Thank you for sharing.

The question is;

How can we worship the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit will not lead us to speak of Himself in seeking His own glory with the Father & the Son?

I trust the Lord to draw your attention back to the scriptures in the second post next to the OP as to why those references you mentioned do not null and void them at all, and how the way you are applying your references, those scripture in the second post next to the OP reproves such application. But again, I leave you in God's hand.

Thank you for sharing, brother.

Hark said:

Below is a line from the Nicene creed that is not really supported by scripture.

"Who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, ( Matthew 3:16-17 ) "

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I think the OP completely misses the intention of the Creed
Whenever we worship God, we are worshipping the Holy Spirit ipso facto because the Holy Spirit is God.

There is an old benediction that goes:

'Praise God from whom all mercies flow;
Praise Him ye creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host-
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.'

If we are praising or worshipping God, we are praising and worshipping the Holy Spirit. That, I believe was the intention of the Creed and it is perfectly correct. The key words are 'together with.'

However, it is true to say that the Holy Spirit is never worshipped on His own for reasons that Hark has given.

But may we pray to Him? Isaiah 61:1 says, 'Oh, that You would rend the heavens! That You would come down!.....etc.' Surely, as N.T. believers, we would see this as a prayer to the Holy Spirit?

Therefore, I have no problem singing one of my favourite hymns for personal revival:

'Come down, O Love divine,
Seek Thou this soul of mine
And visit it with Thine own ardour glowing.
O Comforter, draw near,
Within My heart appear,
And kindle it, Thy holy flame bestowing.'

Hark said:

Maybe the church back then missed these references?

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

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This is not about worship per se. The word occurs nowhere in the passage.

But the early church did sing, usually the Psalms. They just did not call it worship because the Bible does not.

Thanks for sharing, brother.

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Only briefly. I'm trying to resist, though it is an interesting thread. Have to go teach in a few minutes.

Hark said:

How can we worship the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit will not lead us to speak of Himself in seeking His own glory with the Father & the Son?

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I think the primary point Christ is teaching in regards to the Comforter rests in a context of salvation, rather than a universal pattern of worship. As pointed out, when we worship God we are worshipping the Spirit of God as well. We do not separate God into three Gods Who each have an assigned rank.

What do see this...


Acts 20:27-28

King James Version (KJV)

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


...as meaning (and this is open for anyone who would like to comment)?


God bless.

Martin Marprelate said:

I think the OP completely misses the intention of the Creed
Whenever we worship God, we are worshipping the Holy Spirit ipso facto because the Holy Spirit is God.

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The point of the OP is to prove everything by the scripture and there is no basis for that practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. It is an assumption because of the fact that the Holy Spirit is God that He should be worshiped with the Father & the Son, but it is a wrong assumption and an unBiblical one too as it runs against the truths in the scriptures posted in post # 2 after the OP in this thread.

There is an old benediction that goes:

'Praise God from whom all mercies flow;
Praise Him ye creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host-
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.'

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That old benediction is also cannot be supported by the scripture.

Many hymnals that focus on the Holy Spirit in worship as well as the "blessed Trinity" is also not supported by scripture as how God the Father is honored & glorified in worship. Philippians 2:9-11 & John 13:31-32

If we are praising or worshipping God, we are praising and worshipping the Holy Spirit. That, I believe was the intention of the Creed and it is perfectly correct. The key words are 'together with.'

However, it is true to say that the Holy Spirit is never worshipped on His own for reasons that Hark has given.

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How can one address the Holy Spirit in worship with the Father & the Son without addressing the Holy Spirit singularly until they do address the Father & the Son in worship?

How is it that since the Holy Spirit is God, why would God the Father allow the devil to respond with signs and lying wonders when the Holy Spirit is addressed in worship & prayer?

Are the promises of God nay and yea? All the promises of God are yea, but the only way to approach God the Father in anything is by way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) So there is no going around Jesus by going to the Father by way of the Holy Spirit ( John 10:1 )

But may we pray to Him? Isaiah 61:1 says, 'Oh, that You would rend the heavens! That You would come down!.....etc.' Surely, as N.T. believers, we would see this as a prayer to the Holy Spirit?

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Unless you had given a wrong reference, that reads differently in the KJV.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,

Therefore, I have no problem singing one of my favourite hymns for personal revival:

'Come down, O Love divine,
Seek Thou this soul of mine
And visit it with Thine own ardour glowing.
O Comforter, draw near,
Within My heart appear,
And kindle it, Thy holy flame bestowing.'

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You should have a problem when the Holy Spirit is already in you since you were saved by believing in Jesus Christ.

Singing that hymn is like denying Him as in you at that moment as if He is not in you yet.

That "opening" in that hymn is all a seducing spirits needs to come over a believer with a sign, even a sign of tongues that never comes with interpretation, to lure other believers to seek after the same, thus falling away from the faith ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) and becoming an adulterous generation ( Matthew 12:39 )

It doesn't matter if YOU know better. If you allow that practice to occur in church worship, then you will never convince those that was not the Holy Spirit coming over them with a sign when it happens because you sang that hymn, you had prayed that prayer, or you had addressed to honor the Holy Spirit in worship.

Jesus warned about broadening the way ( Matthew 7:13-14 ) where in the end, believers will fall down in these movement of the "Spirit" which was not the Holy Spirit ( Matthew 7:24-27 ), and the solution is to narrow the way back to the Son; Luke 13:24 & keep that spotlight on Him in worship if any one seeks to honor & glorify God the Father in Heaven.

That is what the real indwelling Holy Spirit seeks to do in leading us to do whereas seducing spirits would want to share in the spotlight of the Son in worship and steal it for signs and lying wonders upon their visitations.

John of Japan said:

This is not about worship per se. The word occurs nowhere in the passage.

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Maybe not the word worship in that particular reference, but the practice of worship is there when you sing TO the Lord.

But the early church did sing, usually the Psalms. They just did not call it worship because the Bible does not.

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Did you take that at face value or did you prove that by the Bible?

Singing can accompany worship of God as it is in the Bible.

2 Chronicles 29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.....30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.

Psalm 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

So that reference about singing spiritual songs and hymns TO the Lord is a reference to that worship.

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

How do christians are to come to worship God the Father now?

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

In context, Jesus is saying that believer need not go to a specific place any more but they can come to God the Father anywhere by this one way; by the way of the Son by honoring & glorifying the Son in worship.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is the point of the OP is to show how those led by the Spirit of God will not be led any other way in worship than to honor & glorify the Son.

Only briefly. I'm trying to resist, though it is an interesting thread. Have to go teach in a few minutes.

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I do thank you for your participation and sharing, no matter how brief.