Featured Matt. 23:13 (again!)

Once again the proponents of bogus doctrine avoid discussion and post ridicule. By the numbers:

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports "total spiritual inability" but rather "limited spiritual ability" the ability to receive spiritual milk, the gospel of Christ.
2) Many examples are given in scripture, such as Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9:30-33 where fallen people seek God .
3) Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables if "total spiritual inability" were true.
4) God would not have need to harden hearts (Romans 11) if "total spiritual inability" were true. ​

 

Taken from my post #78.

 

This man exhalting on here needs to stop...NOW. Van is vehemently stating that people can truly desire to seek God and sinful, weak men can stop them from being saved. How much weaker can God be if He can't overcome those wicked men who are stopping people from entering heaven?

 

LOL, did anyone say people can overcome God? Nope. But this misrepresentation, is what they post. They want to change the subject to strawman arguments, and avoid the truth that total spiritual inability have been shown to be bogus.

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports "total spiritual inability" but rather "limited spiritual ability" the ability to receive spiritual milk, the gospel of Christ.
2) Many examples are given in scripture, such as Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9:30-33 where fallen people seek God .
3) Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables if "total spiritual inability" were true.
4) God would not have need to harden hearts (Romans 11) if "total spiritual inability" were true.

Jesus was not mistaken when He said that people entering heaven were blocked by false teaching. Just read Matthew 23:13 and stick with Jesus.​

 

You utter complete falsehoods Van. You suffering from illusions of Vandeur. You need to come under the authority of God's Word --not your own.

​

 

Perhaps you should post such Scripture that supports total spiritual ability.

Perhaps you should post such Scripture that supports fallen people successfully seek God.

Perhaps you should post such Scriptures the need Christ spoke in parables.

Perhaps you should post such Scriptures that support why God hardened hearts.

The disputation of spiritual inability, should of course include support structures of verses giving total spiritual ability.

Ability isn't a word that allows for an almost or in part.

Either one has ability or one does not have ability. A person either has the ability to swim, or they don't. There is no "partial," no almost, no nearly satisfactory when it comes to the word "ability."

Either the light has the ability to shine adequately for the purpose it is installed, or the light lacks the ability to shine for the purpose it is installed.

Perhaps you will find some human ability in this statement by Christ:

""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." ​

 

LOL, Agedman now denies I have posted scripture that demonstrates "total spiritual inability" is bogus doctrine. He denies Matthew 23:13 showing fallen men seeking God, actually in the process of entering heaven. He says "seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you," is a false promise because according to his bogus doctrine, no one seeks God at any time. He denies I cited Matthew 13:10-15, teaching that some fallen people have the ability to understand with their hearts and be healed. Then he engages in misrepresentation, implying my view is total spiritual ability, rather than limited spiritual ability. Another strawman, another bunny trail to alter the subject. Then he claims ability is a all or nothing concept, and limited or diminished ability is an impossibility. So yet another absurdity posted to obfuscate.

Folks, they post and post to hide the obvious:

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports "total spiritual inability" but rather "limited spiritual ability" the ability to receive spiritual milk, the gospel of Christ.
2) Many examples are given in scripture, such as Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9:30-33 where fallen people seek God .
3) Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables if "total spiritual inability" were true.
4) God would not have need to harden hearts (Romans 11) if "total spiritual inability" were true.​

 

Is there more than one kingdom?

 

The point was no-one was eternally indwelt prior to Pentecost, and the reference to men entering the Kingdom and being blocked lies in a Pre-Pentecost context. Failure to distinguish that is why this issue continues to be one of contention.

Christ stated "The Kingdom of God is within you," but we would not equate this to being translated into the Kingdom of Christ. Nor would w equate it with the Millennial Kingdom.

And the passage is fairly clear, in view is the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, which no eye hath seen, ear heard, nor had it come into the hearts of men that which God prepared. The context centers on the Cross and the Spirit of God. The spiritual things of God are revealed by God, and this has a distinctly New Covenant context (as it was Prophecy in the Old Testament).

Those Paul speaks to are already believers (which is the assumption of all instructional writing, unless we have a warning against apostasy), so you should understand why most will object to making this to teach those not yet born again are receiving milk. The same mistake is made concerning the Hebrews in Hebrews 5:10-14, who are assumed to be Christians, rather than Hebrews still devoted to, though ignorant of, the Law. Properly identifying who is in view is critical.

That fact is grasped, but the point is whether they are born again or not.

TSI cannot be denied, because as we are told by Christ and Paul, only the revelation given directly from the Spirit of God gives men the ability to understand the spiritual things of God.

That is the entire purpose for the Comforter being sent. And if you consult John 16:7-9, you will see that the world, not believers, are convicted of sin...because they believe not on Jesus Christ. These are natural men falling under the Convicting Ministry of the Comforter. They do not come under conviction through ability they posess, but do so, just as is the case throughout Scripture, by the intervention of God.

And there you have it: they respond to the revelation of God.

It is not something within them, but an external source through which they come to the truth.

We are told we are born again by the Word, and this principle is consistent throughout Scripture. Though new birth was not in view, the Word was given that men might have faith, and though they did not receive the promises (Hebrews 11:13; 39-40), they were nevertheless brought to an understanding of truth through the intervention of God.

I view the hardening of hearts to be the result of God's action, yes, but not as some. God said He would perform an action which would harden hearts, and that is precisely what happens/ed. Rather than God forces a heart to be hard apart from their participation.

Agreed. While the Spirit of God's ministry can be viewed as internal, because it is the heart of man He deals with, we cannot equate this to the benefits of the Cross whereby Reconciliation, thus Eternal Indwelling...was bestowed.

Actually we do not disagree, because I have never said men are indwelt before they can understand the truth. If that were the case, then we would equally have to embrace loss of salvation, because we see men who have received truth who fall away. The false teachers of 2 Peter 2:19-21 are a good example. And in Hebrews 10:26-29 we again see those who are rejecting Christ, The Sacrifice of the New Covenant, and resisting the Spirit of Grace.

No, I agree with you, if you reject regeneration being required for a man to receive the truth, I do not teach that. But, where we do differ is in regards to natural man having within himself either the desire or ability to receive the truth apart from the intervention of God. He simply does not have that ability, thus, forced to decide, I would affirm Total Spiritual Inability, though my reasons...I hope I have made clear lol.


God bless.

 

More change of subject, more obfuscation!
1) The people of Matthew 23:13 were entering heaven, thus seeking God, thus having limited spiritual ability. Nor is there any need to change the subject to the various kingdoms.
2) Paul spoke to the new Christians as "men of flesh" with spiritual milk. No need to dance around the obvious.
3) Note the repeat of the argument that "the things of the Spirit" means "all the things of the Spirit." But the passage contradicts that bogus claim. Some Men of flesh can understand spiritual milk.
4) Note yet another effort to equate the revelation of God, i.e. the gospel message, with "irresistible grace." Twaddle.
5) Five is a statement against interest folks, claiming self hardening is in view. It isn't, but there would be no hardening, by God or by sinful practice, if the already were lacking total spiritual ability.
6) Yes we agree on six.
7) The whole point of the discussion is your claim natural men of flesh cannot receive spiritual milk without being altered by God. It is a false claim, and has been demonstrated false. Matthew 23:13 has fallen people entering the kingdom of God, thus have received some revelation from God. You cannot get around it. Three of the four soils of Matthew 13:1-23 received some spiritual things. Those of Romans 9:30-33 were able to respond to revelation. The bible demonstrates this ability of some people through-out.

 

Van, Van, Van. You have been schooled on this before. The people in Matthew 23:13 were not entering Heaven. Absolutely no translation supports you --nor do any Bible commentaries. You, and you alone are espousing this junk.

Your novel ideas on biblical doctrines are way off-base.

 

And there you have it...they responded to revelation provided by God, rather than the natural man sitting around, dreaming up a concept about a higher power, and internally understanding they need to come under obedience to that higher power.

Paul also makes this clear hear:


Romans 10:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


God bless.

 

No one asserted anyone sought God without God's general and special revelation. The issue is the bogus claim that natural men of flesh cannot receive the milk of the gospel. And that claim has been shown to be bogus.

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports "total spiritual inability" but rather "limited spiritual ability" the ability to receive spiritual milk, the gospel of Christ.
2) Many examples are given in scripture, such as Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9:30-33 where fallen people seek God .
3) Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables if "total spiritual inability" were true.
4) God would not have need to harden hearts (Romans 11) if "total spiritual inability" were true. ​

 

You actually do, brother, when you ascribe ability to the natural man.

He does not wake up one day and say, "Hey, I think I'll get right with God today." Because he is blind to the fact that there is anything wrong.


God bless.

 

More absurdity. Matthew 23:13 has supposedly "blind to the kingdom" folks actually entering the kingdom. No amount of denial will alter the truth. Total Spiritual Inability has once again been demonstrated to be bogus. Why did Jesus teach in parables if those needing healing were totally blind to the truth? Why did God harden the hearts of unbelieving Jews is they were already totally blind to the gospel.

 

What Kingdom is in view?

If you reject that men were born again in that day, as I do, then we cannot equate being translated in the Kingdom of Christ with the Kingdom that was in place at that time, right?

Consider:


Matthew 21:43

King James Version (KJV)

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof


Is this the Kingdom of Christ?

The answer has to be no, because salvation is eternal. Secondly, we recognize the Kingdom of that day, which was basically relationship with God through the Covenant of Law. Even Gentiles were subject to obedience and found to be though they had not received the Oracles of God.

Here is the Kingdom men were seeking to enter, Van. It is not equated to going to Heaven.

Not at all.

No man seeks after God, God comes seeking them.

This is true of every person of faith in Scripture. Find one person who ever initiated relationship with God.

What were the parables in relation to, Van?

The answer is...the Kingdom of God, and that Kingdom was that which was already known to them.

God was not hiding the Gospel of Jesus Christ from them. The Lord did not send the disciples to the world to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but to Israel only to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom.

That is the Kingdom of your proof-text.

Quite simply, He didn't. The hardening is a result of the response of men to God's actions or words.

And we see in the example of Pharaoh that his heart was already hard, thus like Israel, the blinding is a result of their actions, not God.

I could have started this post out with a statement, "I will harden Van's heart against me in this response."

How do I do that, Van? Simple, I disagree with you. Doesn't mean that I made your heart hard, it is the result of our interaction.

You are actually reversing position when you ascribe God with forcing men, and removing their "free will," if you think about it.


God bless.

 

Hi Darrell, no need to change the subject. They were entering the kingdom of heaven, thus demonstrating spiritual ability. The claim no one seeks after God at any time is false. Matthew 23:13. Repeating the false claim does not diminish its falseness. Talk about a moving the goal posts argument, if the kingdom was already known to them, they had the spiritual ability to know it. Next we get the claim Jesus did not send His disciples to the world. Matthew 28:19 says otherwise. Next we get the claim God did not harden hearts in Romans 11:7-10. Note the non-stop denial of scripture after scripture to defend the bogus doctrine of total spiritual inability.

 

Okay Van.

God bless.

 

In Summary:

The issue is the bogus claim that natural men of flesh cannot receive the milk of the gospel. And that claim has been shown to be bogus.

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports "total spiritual inability" but rather "limited spiritual ability" the ability to receive spiritual milk, the gospel of Christ.
2) Many examples are given in scripture, such as Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9:30-33 where fallen people seek God .
3) Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables if "total spiritual inability" were true.
4) God would not have need to harden hearts (Romans 11) if "total spiritual inability" were true. ​

 

I have not said natural men do not receive milk, and have pointed out that this is the purpose and ministry of the Comforter:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


This validates natural men receiving the Gospel, Van. But what you are refusing to acknowledge is that there is no attributing this to the natural men themselves, it is attributed to the Ministry of God.

So you continue to erroneously attribute ability to the world, natural men, and that is simply what you want to believe.

So have at it.

But because you refuse to balance Scripture you have for years been arguing the same doctrine, and you are no closer to convincing anyone of this error than you were five years ago.


God bless.