Hello Rob
No.God being infinite and perfect.......always KNOWS.
In other words He does not have to acquire Knowledge. ...He is knowledge
As perfect....
There can not be an increase or diminished knowledge
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Biblical Foreknowledge
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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No.God being infinite and perfect.......always KNOWS.
In other words He does not have to acquire Knowledge. ...He is knowledge
As perfect....
There can not be an increase or diminished knowledge
I will offer more when I get to my laptop.....these truths are a great comfort to all believers
Therefore in His perfect knowledge He knows everything beforehand.
It is not just that he knows beforehand as it he looks down a time tunnel. That is prescience. .....He has ordained all that comes to pass.....every molecule is under His control.
Before I formed you in the womb....I knew you and ordained you to be a prophet ....
Jeremiah was not going to be a palm oil salesperson.....he was ordained to be a prophet.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Yes, not as if God said 'Let me look down the corridors of time and see what will happen and make determinations upon that knowledge'.
Why was Jeremiah going to prophet? Because God knew what was in his heart beforehand.
Friend. ....this is outright denial and rebellion of many biblical texts......seriously get a grip
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
'Thus saith mwc'
Let's continue this type of soteriological logic and see if it paints a true picture of election, the Gospel, God's decretive will to save some:
God only chooses people that will do something good, and that is why He chooses them, because He knows they will make a good choice. The other people are not going to make a good choice so they get zapped.
Then again other people get zapped because they won't believe, that is, they won't give mental assent toward some biblical facts, they simply cannot muster up the assent of belief in their hearts toward the Gospel, even though they may even want to believe it, they just cannot do it so they get damned in the end. They're simply incapable of believing so they're damned to hell.
Some keep their hearts from getting hard so they can choose God, so God saw this and they get picked for Heaven. The other ones didn't so they are damned.
Is that pretty close?
We can look to Jesus on your above scenario and see what He said:
John 3:
"18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Let's see what the above statements added say John 3:18 -19 based on your quote, "God only chooses people that will do something good," 18 He that believeth, that is "those who do something good," is not condemned: but he that believeth not "that is doeth not good" is condemned already "not going to make a good choice so they get zapped," because he hath not believed "that is doeth not good" in the name of the only begotten Son of God. No where close, Jesus said those who believe, and who are the ones who believe, well, Jeremiah believed, Abraham believed, Jacob believed, Abel believed we believe today. God knew exactly what Esau and Jacob would do and we see,
Romans 19:12 "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."
You think maybe God knew the choices they would make before they came out of the womb?
Esau rejected that is failed to believe, that is fact, he turned his back on the things of God and Jacob, well Jacob believed that too is fact, and he received the Covenant promise from God why, because he believed, and God knew what was in their hearts prior to their birth, one he hated the other He loved.
Taking it further with your question, we would see:
"18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not "get zapped because they won't believe, that is, they won't give mental assent toward some biblical facts, they simply cannot muster up the assent of belief in their hearts toward the Gospel, even though they may even want to believe it, they just cannot do it so they get damned in the end. They're simply incapable of believing so they're damned to hell" is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
One last thing,
"18 He that believeth on him is "keep their hearts from getting hard so they can choose God, so God saw this and they get picked for Heaven" not condemned: but he that believeth not "The other ones didn't so they are damned" is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
You tell me how your questions fit what Jesus said.
Jesus said believing makes one not condemned! So is Jesus saying belief is "works" not at all, He stated they must believe to not be condemned. Who must believe all who want salvation, why do they want salvation because they "hear the Gospel and respond" they believe!
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The only thing in Jeremiahs heart beforehand was sin and death. All died in Adam. This idea you express of men who are eager to do God's will before He saves them is totally off base.
Enjoy this link;
http://sglblibrary.homestead.com/fi...ty/HistoricalFaithOfBapitstsOnSovereignty.htm
Foreseen Faith Not the Cause of Election
God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God's gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God's gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies: Eph. 2:9.
Surely God's Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people "who have believed through grace" (Acts 18:27). If, then, they have believed "through grace," there is absolutely nothing meritorious about "believing," and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No; God's choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, Rom. 11:5, we read of "a remnant according to the election of grace." There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favor, something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.
It thus appears that it is highly important for us to have clear and Scriptural views of the "foreknowledge" of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonoring to Him. The popular idea of Divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God's purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose; chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all the glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have "believed through grace" (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was "of grace" (Rom. 11:5).
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Yet in your post #25 you stated Jeremiah was preordained to be a prophet and yet now you say he had sin and death in him, so how was it he was preordained as a sinner and dead that he could be preordained? Could it be maybe God knew him beforehand?
it is obvious you are yet without understanding.
God saves sinners....that is all there is to work with.
We were all born spiritually dead, spiritual wrecks. God must regenerate us and make us into worthwhile persons.
Jesus clearly said He did not come looking for those who thought they were righteous, but calls sinners to repentance.Jeremiah, Moses, The apostles were all wicked depraved sinners who became the object of God's grace....which you evidently want to deny for whatever reason.
Think of the potter and the clay.......the clay was all bad....the potter makes something good out of that which is all bad.
Decree Precedes Foreknowledge
Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God's "foreknowledge" is not causative, that instead, something is His own sovereign decree. Christ was "delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23). His "counsel" or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Rom. 8:29. That verse opens with the word "for," which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, "all things work together for good to them . . . who are the called according to His purpose." Thus God's "foreknowledge" is based upon His "purpose" or decree (see Psalm 2:7).
God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be. It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. Truth is, He "foreknows" because He has elected. This removes the ground, or cause of election from outside the creatures and places it in God's own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight." The plain truth of Rom. 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (II Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse:
"Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son," etc.
God did not predestinate those whom He "foreknew were conformed," but, on the contrary, those whom He "foreknew" (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated "to be conformed." Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God's foreknowledge and predestination.
Men are born spiritually dead, depraved and dead in trespasses and sin. God must regenerate that is not the contention, it is when and how that is in question. Jesus said those who believe (that is make a choice, you call that works). You seem to believe that regeneration that is that the spirit must come to life in order for them to believe. I believe that the ones who are saved believe after hearing the word and respond to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, either believing or rejecting. The very second they believe God Regenerates, imputes righteousness, justifies, The Holy Spirit indwells and fills and many other things bottom line they are totally and utterly saved.
Jesus doesn't come looking for those who believe that God made them righteous or believe that they are righteous, like the Pharisees. Jesus said He came to seek and save the lost and How does He seek, Faith cometh by hearing, The word is preached they hear and the Holy Spirit convicts and the person responds by means of volition, either positively or negatively, " those who believe are not condemned." "Those who believe not are condemned already because they haven't believed on the Son of God." John 3:19
God molds them and makes the believer after they follow His command, "Believe on the Lord Jesus (Savior) and though shalt be saved." Then regeneration, imputation of righteousness, justification, The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the filling of the Spirit occur withing a nanosecond of believing. They are totally saved and can then begin to grow and understand spiritual things the things about God that the natural man cannot. Salvation is simple, needs no spiritual understanding, Believe on the Lord Jesus and "whosoever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
God in His "Foreknowledge," predestinated all who would believe to be conformed into the image of His dear Son. Did God Foreordain those whom He foreordained to be the image of His dear Son? That is what you seem to be saying that He did! Why would Paul have even said that? Instead He said "those whom He foreknew them He also Predestinated," Those whom He preordained them He Preordained, did he?
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You are in direct rebellion to what the scriptures declare and as such are teaching falsehoods. .
You are trying to speak out of both sides of your theological mouth.
You insist that man and not God are in control .
According to you man is dead but alive at the same time.
I see no apostolic example of your error....this insistence on nano seconds etc......just seems as flat out rebellion just as sure as if Jesus said you must be born from above and you replied no we do not have to. ....we are okay and we will do it on our own and do not want anyone telling us differently.
I will be saved on my terms based on what I think and believe, the works of my hands. I will be saved because I understand more than my neighbor, so God must save me and respect my person because I figured it out. I am not dead in sin but look at me.....I figured it out.....I am wonderful....my neighbor is dumb, he is a fool.....Look at what I did.... I responded on my own, I have full ability.....I am immune from the fall into sin and death....no one seeks God no not one, except for me. I am special....you now must respond to me...
Internet Theologian
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Not semi but full Pelagianism.
Internet Theologian
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More nonsense. Show us all where Jesus said make a choice and then I will save you. In light of Scripture salvation is not via choice, John 1:13; Romans 9:16. Ephesians 1:15; James 1:18. Ephesians 1:19. It is God who chooses, not man, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; John 15:16, and note Genesis 12:1ff. It is all over the Scriptures, and proves your ideology to being man made to the order of Charles G Finney and his 'New Divinity'. You've been indoctrinated by his followers unbeknownst to you. You've gotten your teaching from Scripture alright, but is is from wresting and misunderstanding nearly every single text you use.
And you believe contrary to Scripture that man does this by making a decision, thus you supplant God with man, and then boast about it. John 6:63 is only one text that shows you to be in abject error. I highly doubt you will ever study these passages that destroy your teachings, and see that they actually dismantle what you teach.
We know...and it is all purely subjective.
You aren't even seeing your inconsistency. You teach by implication man already has faith and ability, then you use a passage, Romans 10:17 that perfectly shows faith comes from God. Then there is the difference between can and will, something you fail to address because it also shows you to be in error; John 6:44. You teach contrary to what Christ said and to what the Scriptures mean.
What is the difference between 'can' and 'will' mwc? Read the text in John 6:44.
More inconsistency on your part. You've taught elsewhere of the ability of the natural man to understand and come to Christ, now you say the natural man cannot...hmmmm. Why such inconsistency and double teachings?
Obviously it is not because you're not grasping the Gospel at all.
More absurd inconsistency on your part "They can't understand, they can understand, need not understand' lolzzzzzzzzzzz. Friend you're a theological mess in this post. All over the place. Double teachings.
Nonsensical. You don't understand the order of salvation in any part.
Men are saved by following God's command, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and though shalt be saved, Acts 16:31, not one place does Paul state be regenerated and believe. Then in Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved." If this is rebellion and Falsehood take it up with Paul, then Jesus "that whosever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." Jesus said nothing about He would regenerate you in order for you to be saved. Please show where He says I will regenerate you first so you can believe.