Featured Universal church - or whatever you want to call it.

Lets keep it simple....

Is there a universal Church? Yes.
And at the very moment that anybody(anywhere), believes on Jesus Christ as their Savior, thereby receiving the Holy Spirit, they immediately become a member of it!

This is a real Church(a “called out assembly”), that is “called out from the world”:
And the LORD, is the only one who has the member ship list!
------------------------
We find it in ........... Colossians 1:24
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:"
--------------------------------------------------
When Jesus said.... “upon this rock I will build my church”(Matthew 16:18), this was the Church, this Jesus was talking about. The only Church with a 100% saved membership!

 

Problem: As others have posted..

When do you have the body of Christ beginning?

If it is every believer.. why does it not begin in Genesis?

 

Good morning 360watt

You asked......
When do you have the body of Christ beginning?
If it is every believer.. why does it not begin in Genesis?

There is no problem: It started on the day of Pentecost, when the 120 were filled with the Spirit!
Old Testament Saints, did not have the “indwelling” Holy Spirit!

 

Next problem

So stillearning, you have the body of Christ beginning at Pentecost.. with the 120 being filled with the Spirit.

Jesus and His disciples were already a church.. a body of Christ before Pentecost. How?

Matthew 16-- Jesus talking of the process for resolving disputes in a church family.. says 'tell it to the church' when talking of this process.. eg.. two or three gathered together in resolve an issue.. end up going to the church to resolve it.

This is telling something to the church.. before Pentecost.

Are you going to say.. this is a 'yet, future' church?

On top of this.. Jesus and His disciples had:

* The Lord's Supper
* Met regularly
* Had Jesus as the Head
* Followed the Great Commision and Commandment
* Baptised

etc..

This is the first local New Testament church!

 

My quote still stands. The Universal Church is all true believers on earth from all times. When you manage to take up an offering in that sense, let me knw

 

Now that is not really the point is it? Had we as Christians kept to the words of Christ, we would still be of one church with one accord. No in two thousand some what years we have managed to split into hundreds of denominations. That shows how badly we paid attention to the commands of the Living God. Oh no, we don't like instruments in a worship service, lets form a denomination, I found two gold leaves with the real truth on them, lets form a denomination, I like beanie caps on our leader, lets form a denomination, lets breakaway from the RCC, but leave their ideas of creeds, hierarchies, ad sprinkling infants intact, lets form several denominations. On and on and on. What does that say to you about the state of man?

 

First, it is the connotational usage that determines the meaning of a term not its eytmology. Can you find anything at anytime in the history of the Greek term ekklesial prior to and including the New Testament era where ekklesia was ever used to mean "called out ones"? From its earliest conception in Greek literature and its consistent usage for 500 years right up to the new testament it has never had but one connotational meaning and that is a physical unity of people gathered in one place to conduct some sort of busness, thus a congregation or assembly.

Second, if you recognize the common meaning and common abstract generic and/or institutional use of that common meaning there is no text where it does not make sense.

Third, every single metaphor used to describe the ekklesia in the New Testament is a visible localized metaphor.

Fourth, you are simply confusing the kingdom of God with the church of God. Do you know the difference between the two? For example, Christ preached "the gospel of the kingdom" but you never read of preaching "the gospel of the church." For example, Christ said "the kingdom of God is at hand" but you never read that concerning the church. The kingdom is an Old Testament that David and others talked about but the New Testament church has its foundation consisting of New Testament apostles and prophets.

Fifth, where in Acts 2 do you find any mention of anyone building or constituting a church? You have such an ekklesia already assembled in Acts 2:1, the very same one assembled in Acts 1:15-26 which is stated to be the very same one that had been assembling since the baptism in John according to Acts 1:21-22! You have this assembly in Acts 2:1 being "added unto" in Acts 2:41-42 and identified as the "church" in Acts 2:46! But where can one find it was built or constituted on the day of Pentecost????? NOWHERE but in the imagination of some people.

Sixth, if you have being "created in Christ" or placement into the mystical body of Christ by regeneration (Eph. 2:1,5,10) or by the baptism in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost then you have all people prior to Pentecost spiritually OUTSIDE of Christ! Is there any kind of salvation for anyone at any time OUTSIDE of Christ??

Seventh, Adam died "in the day" he ate but did not die physically until he was 930 years old. Hence, the death "in the day" had to be spiritual death. Spiritual death is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION FROM GOD who is life, light and holiness, leaving man without spiritual dead, dark and unrighteous. The only possible solution to spiritual separation is spiritual union with God through Christ. By defining the universal invisible church in salvation terms (spiritual union with Christ) you are perverting the most basic level of salvation and denying any kind of salvation to pre-Pentecost people.

Eighth, The Holy Spirit "came upon" New Testament saints as much as Old Testament saints (Acts 8:14) as that is for equipping and empowering people. Regeneration was the work of the Spirit prior to Pentecost (Jn. 3:3-11; Ezek. 44:5). The Spirit of Christ indwelt both Old Testament prophets (1 Pet. 1:11 and non-prophets or common believers like Joshua and Caleb.

Ninth, the baptism in the Spirit has been and is the INSTITUTIONAL immersion in the shekinah glory (Ex. 40:34-35; Acts 2:1-3) rather than an individual baptism. It was the prophetic promise to a PLURAL "you" of WATER BAPTIZED believers constituted by Christ into an assembly (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:4-5) restricted to a specific geographic location ("at Jerusalem") at a specific time ("not many days hence").

Tenth, It was repeated only one more time at the house of Corneilius (Acts 11;15-16) in order to publicly confirm that Gentiles were to be water baptized into the assembly on an equal basis with Jews (Acts 11:1-17). Although, thousands of INDIVIDUALS had been saved between Pentecost unto Acts 10, the NEAREST REFERENCE POINT Peter could point to when the baptism in the Spirit had occurred was "AT THE BEGINNING" proving it was a one time historical occurrence, and the house of Cornelius was an acception for the sake of Gentiles.

There is no universal invisible church or body of Church except in confused minds.

 

Hello again 360watt and thanks so much for responding...

Your question was......
So stillearning, you have the body of Christ beginning at Pentecost.. with the 120 being filled with the Spirit.
Jesus and His disciples were already a church.. a body of Christ before Pentecost. How?

That is, “how could the Church be created on the day of pentecost when it was already created”?

But Jesus said......
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)

This is future tense!
------------------------
Then you listed 5 things, that prove the Church was already in existence....
* The Lord's Supper
* Met regularly
* Had Jesus as the Head
* Followed the Great Commision and Commandment
* Baptised

But you left off, the MOST IMPORTANT OBJECTIVE of the Church:
“Telling the world about Jesus Christ!”
------------------------
This was not “the Church”!
Look two verses later, Jesus said this.......
"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." (Matthew 16:20)

The Lord repeated this over and over again in the Gospels, because the Church wasn’t in existence yet.

But, when Jesus was ready to create the Church(10 days later), he said these words.....
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)
------------------------
The Church was created at Pentecost!

 

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Isa 28:16 KJV
Who is the I and who is the stone? Are the I and the stone the same, "person"?

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Acts 4:10,11 KJV
Is God in Acts the I in Isaiah? Is the stone the same in both and is that stone Jesus Christ of Nazareth? Was the stone rejected by the builders by being crucified? When did it become the head of the corner? When was it laid in Zion? Is the answer relative to whom, God raised from the dead? The head of the corner.

Is that relative to the church? To the head of the body,of Christ? The beginning?

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the firstborn from the dead, and presently the only one resurrected from the dead, to die no more and no more to return to corruption, the foundation stone of the Church of God, the Father is building?

How does God add one to that foundation stone? What did the resurrected Jesus Christ of Nazareth receive from the Father which could then be shed forth to add to the church?

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Jehovah the Father is the "I" and Jehovah the Son is the "stone"

The stone is explicitly identified as "Jesus Christ of Nazareth." God the Father raised him from the Dead through the power of God the Spirit.

With regard to the stone becoming "the head of the corner" Peter more fully explains it in 1 Peter 2:4-8:

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The ministry of John the Baptist proclaimed Jesus as the Christ and Savior and called upon men to repent and believe in Christ and declare that through submission to baptism (Jn. 3:36; Acts 19:4). It is that profession of faith by mouth and in baptism that is the "rock" [petra] in Matthew 16:18 which was obtained by divine revelation (Mt. 16:17) that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God (Mt. 16:15). Peter identifies Christ as this "petra" in verse 8 above in the phrase "rock [petra] of offence".

This profession of faith is the foundation upon which the ekklesia is built, as Peter's name is intentionally brought into the discussion about WHO IS CHRIST in Matthew 16:15-18 because it is his name that charaterizes the kind of building material used to build the church upon that foundation stone. In Matthew 16:18 there is a builder named "I will" (not the Holy Spirit or the Father), there is a building named "my ekklesia" and there is a foundation for building it "upon" that is named ("this rock" petra). But outside of the name of "peter" there is no material named to build the church from. Peter makes it clear in 1 Pet. 2:5 that Christ intentionally characterized the name of Peter to describe the kind of building materials that Christ uses to build his church - those who do not stumble over this "stone of offence" but received by faith and profess it by mouth and through baptism. Hence, the building materials are "living stones" which are "built up" a spiritual house where "ACCEPTABLE" sacrifies are offered. The stone was laid by God through the ministry of John the Baptist. Based upon that profession of faith in Christ and declaration of that faith through baptism, Jesus took the materials prepared by John and formed them into His ekklesia that continually assembled together with him "from the baptism of John until his ascension and then continued to assemble together after his ascension (Acts 1:15-26)

The issue here is PREEMINENCE. With regard to the congregational body of Christ he is preemenient as he is in the position of final authority - "the head" always refers to the position of authority as a metaphor in scripture.

He is "the beginning" meaning that all created things have him as their SOURCE of ORIGIN as He is the creator of all things (Jn. 1:2-3).

He is the "firstborn" another metaphor that stands for the preeminent heir, or the one who has legal right to all things of the Father. He is "from the dead" meaning he stands first in the family as risen in a glorified body.

 

He does not add you to the foundation stone! If you are properly prepared, a water baptized believer in Christ, he can use you to build UPON the foundation stone.

For example, in 1 Cor. 3:11 “the foundation” that Paul laid to build the church at Corinth upon was the profession of Jesus Christ by mouth and in baptism. As a “master builder” he took these properly prepared “living stones” and built the ekklesia at Corinth into “the temple of the Holy Spirit.”

For example in Ephesians 2:20 Jesus is the cornerstone in the foundation consisting of apostles and prophets. Meaning, Christ and his finished work was the focus of the inspired revelation provided through the apostles and prophets, upon which the congregation at Ephesus “as AN holy temple” and “YE as AN holy habitation” was founded.

The promise is the baptism in the Spirit that was only promised to a plural "you" of water baptized believers prepared by John the Baptist (Mt. 3:11) and assembled under Christ "from the baptism of John" until the ascension. The baptism in the Spirit publicly affirmed the ekklesia of water baptized believers was the new house of God and had been finished by Christ. The supernatural sign gifts was the temporary evidence which was fulfilled with the completion of the Biblical canon, while the abiding evidence is correct profession of faith by mouth and in the ordinances and in the very kind of members that constitute the ekklesia of Christ - water baptized beleivers. The church as an institution was once immersed in the shekinah glory and now the benefits of that baptism are received by being added to it by confession of faith by mouth and by water baptism. That is how we are not made to "partake" of the indwelling presence of God's presence in this holy - sanctified - set apart temple.

 

He does not add you to the foundation stone! If you are properly prepared, a water baptized believer in Christ, he can use you to build UPON the foundation stone.

For example, in 1 Cor. 3:11 “the foundation” that Paul laid to build the church at Corinth upon was the profession of Jesus Christ by mouth and in baptism. As a “master builder” he took these properly prepared “living stones” and built the ekklesia at Corinth into “the temple of the Holy Spirit.”

For example in Ephesians 2:20 Jesus is the cornerstone in the foundation consisting of apostles and prophets. Meaning, Christ and his finished work was the focus of the inspired revelation provided through the apostles and prophets, upon which the congregation at Ephesus “as AN holy temple” and “YE as AN holy habitation” was founded.



The promise is the baptism in the Spirit that was only promised to a plural "you" of water baptized believers prepared by John the Baptist (Mt. 3:11) and assembled under Christ "from the baptism of John" until the ascension. It was time located "not many days hence...when the day of Pentecost was fully come..." (Acts 1:4; 2:1) place located "in Jerusalem" (Acts 1:4). The baptism in the Spirit publicly affirmed the ekklesia of water baptized believers was the new house of God and had been finished by Christ. The supernatural sign gifts was the temporary evidence which was fulfilled with the completion of the Biblical canon, while the abiding evidence is correct profession of faith by mouth and in the ordinances and in the very kind of members that constitute the ekklesia of Christ - water baptized beleivers. The church as an institution was once immersed in the shekinah glory and now the benefits of that baptism are received by being added to it by confession of faith by mouth and by water baptism. That is how we are not made to "partake" of the indwelling presence of God's presence in this holy - sanctified - set apart temple.

The present benefits are characterized by the phrase - "the pillar and ground of the truth."

 

Okay.. so next problem

You were typing that Jesus and His disciples didn't do all the work of local church because they didn't tell others about Jesus.. well..

That did happen. It happened almost straight away when Jesus rose again to begin with. Once Jesus had found some of His disciples they went and told others.

The other part of this is that the Great Commandment and Great Commission include telling others about Jesus.

And another thing that Jesus and His disciples did is discipleship, which is a local church function also. I hadn't listed everything... there is a lot more to it.

 

Good evening 360watt

First you said.......
“You were typing that Jesus and His disciples didn't do all the work of local church because they didn't tell others about Jesus.. well..
That did happen. It happened almost straight away when Jesus rose again to begin with. Once Jesus had found some of His disciples they went and told others.”

The Lord’s appearances after His Resurrection, were the heart of the Gospel message:
(Proof that Jesus was indeed alive.....
V.5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. V.6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. V.7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. V.8 And they departed quickly from the sepulcher with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word." (Matthew 28:5-8 AV)

and

V.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; V.4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: V.5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: V.6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. V.7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. V.8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time." (1 Corinthians 15:3-8 AV)

and

"And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain."
(1 Corinthians 15:14)

Witnessing the Lord’s resurrection, does not disobey the Lord’s instructions, “....that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ."
------------------------
Next you said.....
“The other part of this is that the Great Commandment and Great Commission include telling others about Jesus.
And another thing that Jesus and His disciples did is discipleship, which is a local church function also. I hadn't listed everything... there is a lot more to it.”

The “Great Commission” you talked about, is found in Matthew 28:19-20
V.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: V.20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.”


And although this does counteract the Lord’s previous instructions:
This “commission”, was given at just about the same time as His instructions in Acts 1:8

Sure enough, the Lord and his disciples were ministering to the Jews, in a similar way that the Church ministers to the world, but that doesn't make what they had "a NT Church"!
------------------------
Remember, the issue of this thread, is the existence of a “universal Church”(if that is what you want to call it). Although the Bible calls it the body of Christ(Colossians 1:24).

 

Okay... getting back to basics..

Meaning of ecclesia:

Scholars cited in 'The Lamp, The Church' by Pastor Billy Mann, Pp 4-5

1: Liddell and Scott (Lexicon)- 'An assembly of people called together; an assembly called out'

So -- it's something that assembles

2: Dean Trench: 'Ekklessia, as all know, was the lawful assembly in a free Greek city of all those possessed of the rights of citizenship, for the transaction of public affairs'

-- still.. it is something that is assembled

3: Edward Robinson 'Ekklesia, a convocation, assembly, congregation. In the literal sense a popular, or rather assembly, composed of persons legally summoned' (Lexicon)

4: A.H.Strong: 'Ekklesia signified merely an assembly, however gathered or summoned. The church was never so large that it could not assemble.'

5: Vincent: 'Originally an assembly of citizens, regularly summoned'

6: Thayer: 'Take the entire range of Greek literature in all its dialects, secular and sacred, and there is not one passage in which ecclesia means an invisible, universal spiritual assembly' (Lexicon)

7: Alexander Campbell: 'Ekklesia literally signifies an assembly called out from others and is used among the Greeks, particularly the Athenians, for their popular assemblies, summoned by their chief magistrates and in which none but citizens had a right to sit. By inherent power it may be applied to any body of men called out and assembled in one place. If it ever loses the idea of calling out and assembling, it loses its principal features and primitive use'

Now onto Jesus and His disciples:

As before, they did all the work of local New Testament church. They were a New Testament, christian ecclesia in every sense of the word. A local body of believers with Jesus as the head, covenanted together to carry out the great commandment and commission.

You have here a church before Pentecost.

The body of Christ. The first one.

Now to -- 'I will build my church'

The tense of this verse, is continuing action. When looking at the Greek behind what Jesus said.. it is along the lines of 'I will be building my church'

Strongs:

oikodomeō
oy-kod-om-eh'-o
From the same as G3619; to be a house builder, that is, construct or (figuratively) confirm: - (be in) build (-er, -ing, up), edify, embolden.

It is in the sense of building something already started.

G3619

οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).

..building, edify.. embolden..builder.. confirmation..

This is all of language of something continuing.

Now from the same book by Mann: P.18

proofs that the church was founded before Pentecost:

1)Called out before (Matt 4:17-11)
2) Ordinances before (Matt 26:26-28)
3) Gospel before (Luke 9:2-6), Mark 1:1)
4) Great commission before (Matthew 18:19,20)
5) Apostles before (Luke 6:13-16)
6) Discipline before (Matthew 18:17,18)
7) Democratic government before (Matthew 23:8-12, Matthew 18:17-18)
8) Business meeting before (Acts 1)
9) Qualified people to be members before (John 4:1)
10) Jesus sang in the church before (Heb 2:12, Mark 14:26)
11) Had 120 members at least before Pentecost. (Acts 1:15)
12) Had 3,000 souls ADDED on Pentecost (Acts 2:38-47)