Featured Concerning, just, Hades

As with many vague phrases in Scripture, you can find many differing interpretations, based largely on speculation. One view, among many, has the lost actually in Hades in the here and now. This is based on us being "in the realm of darkness." Thus the church will overcome the "gates" (or method of confining the lost) and set free those whose faith is credited as righteousness. As I said, this is the one I like, but it is speculation.

In scripture there are references to the gates of Death (Job 38:17, Proverbs 9:13) and the gates of Sheol. (Isaiah 38:10)

 

"The gates of Hades," from what I have been told, was a euphemism for death, much like the word "sleep" is used.

If that is what in view, then the Lord is stating "I will build my Church and death shall not prevail (against it)."

We know from various Scriptures that this is a basic principle taught in the New Testament.

Secondly, I think we have to maintain the context of the Age this is stated in, which was Pre-Cross and prior to the liberation of the Just from Hades. So we see that not only will death not prevail against the building of the Church (which is the salvation of men who are immersed into God), but Hades did not prevail over those among the just who died in faith.

Ultimately, we are told Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire, bringing a finality to it's existence and correlation to mankind.

I would place it as the time when, as the Lord states, He begins building His Church. His Church is built upon confession of the Person of Christ, which began in full revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ at Pentecost, when the disciples were Baptized with the Holy Ghost (placed in Christ) and empowered to preach the Gospel.


God bless.

 

Not at all. But the Rapture is just one aspect of Christ's victory over death. The idea, I believe, is that the Church being built is the process of men gaining eternal life, which, as Christ taught, means that man will never die (which speaks of eternal life, not physical, because the Lord made it clear that His own would be put to death.

No. That is, in it's context...speaking about the glorification of the Saint, not salvation in Christ, at which time we obtain eternal life through the process of being born again.

Not yet, but my hope is that it will any day now, because I, like Paul, yearn for that day and that body which is not earthly:



2 Corinthians 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


What he is speaking about when he speaks of being "naked" is dying prior to the rapture and going to be with the Lord in Spirit form alone, being separated from our body.

It's very simple...death has no power over the Church, except for those who fear death because they do not understand what lies ahead.

He makes it clear that we don't simply desire to die...


4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


...but that we would receive that body which eternal.


God bless.

 

When David speaks this, he is speaking about his person, not his spirit, not his immaterial aspect of his existence, because he trusted in the resurrection of the dead.

Christ committed His Spirit, not His soul...to God.

Yep.



2 Corinthians 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


The concept presented here deals with having a body a representing being "clothed," and not having a body as unclothed, or naked.

His desire is that he/we would be clothed upon with that heavenly building/tabernacle/house, for if so, he says, we will not be found unclothed/naked.

This refers to our being in spirit form without body.

The disciples and Christ give us insight to the state of man when he is "unclothed:"





Luke 24:36-39

King James Version (KJV)


36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


And if Christ defines the state of a man who has died as being a spirit, not a soul, then I think we can safely adopt that definition.

The spirit of a man is not necessarily in view, though we can impose a Sovereignty context into that passage, meaning that when men and animals die, the "control" they once enjoyed over their existence ends.

When men die, their spirits separate from their bodies, and the just go to be with God, while the unjust go to Hades, where they will reside until they are resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne. The just, as Paul teaches here, go to be with the Lord in Heaven (Christ now having opened up a way into the Holiest Place through His death).

So what is left is a corpe that will rot in the grave, and the spirit of the man who will go to the place determined by his response to the will of God. If he has obeyed God (which in this Age is the demand to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ) he goes to Heaven; if he has rejected God's will...he goes into Hades, at which time his everlasting punishment/torment starts.

No, it s the spirit of the soul (person) and a body of flesh which no longer has physical life, thus rots.

The unsaved are indeed "dead souls," until they have the life of Christ. The only living souls are those born again. Because we are born separated from God...we have no life, despite having physical life. We are made alive (quickened) in Christ.

At the Rapture.

And while we do not know the day or the hour, we are told we should know the signs of the times, which in my view is that it may not be that long before the Lord calls us up.

And this is the desire Paul expresses in 2 Corinthians 5, his hope was that the Rapture would occur that we not be found naked (in spirit form), but clothed upon with the glorified body.


God bless.

 

If you see relevance of this, you will need to explain it.

In view in Matthew 16 is that Peter is enlightened by God to know that Jesus is the long awaited Messiah. This does not mean Peter was trusting in the Risen Savior:



Matthew 16:20-23

King James Version (KJV)


20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



God has always enlightened men who are natural to spiritual truth, because we know that no man has the ability in his natural condition to know or receive the spiritual things of God.

Now, Percho...what relevance is there in your quote to the discussion at hand?

If you would learn to quote what was already said and answer that directly, there would be no need for me to reiterate what I already said.

The ball is in your court, lol, it is for you to address what I already said on this in the previous post.

I guess you have a concept of Christ being caught up by God when He died physically, which is not what is in view in regards to the Lord "committing His spirit to the Father," just as that is not in view in the following:


John 10:27-29

King James Version (KJV)


27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


The Lord is simply acknowledging God's Sovereignty in the matter.

C'mon, Percho.

1. It is basic that Christ died for the sins of the world. That means your sins, that means my sins.

2. Christ died physically...not spiritually on the Cross, so yes...He died.

3. That His physical death was sufficient for the payment of sins is evident in His statement "...it is finished!"


Christ did not go into Hades to continue making Atonement, that was accomplished through...His death. That death was physical, and His going into Hades was for the purpose of declaring victory over sin and death and liberating the Just from Hades. When we consider the statement "...you will not leave my "soul" in Hades" we understand this to be a reference to the hope of resurrection (though prophetic of Christ), so we make a mistake, in my view, when we do not distinguish the prophetic nature of the Prophecy itself and how that is used in connection with Christ. It is similar to Christ's statement "My God! My GOd! Why hast thou forsaken me," when we make it a concept that the Father deserted Christ, or, turned His back on Him. We have but to look at the Psalm and see it in it's original context and conclude one very simple truth: God never forsook David...either.

The "soul" refers to the person, Percho, so we do not technically ask "Where did Christ's soul go," and if you had read the last post you would have seen that it was clarified...it was His spirit he committed into the hands of the Father...not His soul.

Christ never ceased being alive in spirit, only in the body. That is an important distinction to understand.

His spirit went into Hades, His body lie in the grave. The two comrise the soul, even as we are taught in the beginning:


Genesis 2:7

King James Version (KJV)


7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


If the cults understood this they would forsake their heresies of Soul Sleep and Annihilation.

The soul, the Person of Christ was in Hades, his body went in the tomb.

My advice is stay away from the YLT, it confuses more than anything, and tends to help certain cultic ideas. Sincerely comprised, I am sure, but abused, dry, and does not show the Theological understanding seen in other translations.

Secondly, another great misconception and misunderstanding about the verse you quote above is that there is an implication that men gained eternal life from the Tree of Life.

God is the source of eternal life, not that tree, lol. What is in view is man living evermore in the condition Adam is now found in, that is...spiritually dead. When men are born today, in the likeness and image of their earthly fathers (c.f. Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 5:3), they are born separated from God and spiritually dead. If they had access to that tree the best they could hope for would be sustenance of physical life, which is all that was provided men under past Ages. It is not until this Age and the establishment of the New Covenant that the provision for eternal life...came from Heaven.

Lastly, again I ask...relevance?

Continued...

 

Not sure why you seem to think I have denied that Christ died, lol.

Again, you need to start quoting your antagonist so you can keep the context of the discussion. You will never be effective in regards to Doctrinal Debate...until you learn to do that.

Again, you have created a concept foreign to what Scripture is actually teaching.

You understand that Christ...was God, right?

What does inheritance have to do with what you quote here?

In the passage quoted it is specific to Paul.

Here is an example of where Christ was roughly 72 hours later, give or take, lol:


John 20:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Now, look at the Lord's statement that He had not "ascended" yet. What does this apply to, Percho, the physical or the spiritual?

In view is the Lord's bodily return to Heaven from whence He came. We do not create a dogmatic position that while physically dead...Christ did not go to Heaven, for the simple reasons that (1) He is God and (2) we see in several passages indication that Christ liberated the Just from Hades, finally fulfilling the type/shadow/figure seen in the Law in the Holy of Holies (men coming into God's presence), whereby He entered into the Holiest of All through His death.

In view is the Ascension of Christ which will take place roughly forty days later (Acts 1:9).

Again, I see no relevance.

This speaks of His physical death, Percho.

How that is relevant to the OP is that at death, He went into Hades. That His "soul should not suffer corruption" is a reference to His body, rather than his spirit, because men do not "suffer corruption" in that sense in Hades. Their spirits await final judgment which will take place when they are bodily resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne.

Now, I will ask that if you would like any more participation from me in this thread, that you quote what I say then make your address. I would prefer you did not cherry-pick, but at the very least preface your comments and questions with what I have actually said. If you don't understand how to do that, just let me know, I will be glad to help you with it, because I would prefer to see you effectively debating Scripture.


God bless.

 

Amen.
Also - "shall not prevail against it" To say this means (prima facie) - they will certainly try.

HankD

 

Matthew 13 is the story concerning satan's attempt to destroy the church.

e.g. The wheat and the tares.

HankD

 

I agree, I only said that satan and company would try to prevail over the church and try they have.

Look at Christendom at large (which collectively is not really the church which is the pure wheat hidden within the leavened meal).

In reality I believe this is part of the separation process going on right now - bundling the tares (into denominations), throwing out the bad fish, separating and herding the goats from the sheep. I believe this is just the beginning of the Lord's separation of His own who hear His voice.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.


HankD